[BrayJo]

Hello all, I mounted my battery in the trunk and now trying to get my head wrapped around how the wiring should go.

I don’t have enough posts to add pics, so bear with me as I try to write this out.

I have Powermaster mini starter.

So looking at the front of my Ford Solenoid.
I will call the large left terminal on the “S” side terminal “A".
I will call the large right terminal on the "I" side, terminal "B".

• So the positive battery cable goes to solenoid terminal A.
  
• Also attached to solenoid terminal A is cable that runs to battery at starter (+).
  
• On the right side solenoid B terminal is wire ran to ignition at the starter.
  
• From the “S” terminal on the solenoid I can wire that to the previous wire that ran to the ignition on the starter.
  
• I can run a power supply for the fuse block to the previous wire that connected the horn relay, key ignition etc
  
• No jumper between the battery and ignition at starter.

Is that about right?....be nice.

Thanks

 

[oleyellar]

MAD electrical

Check out MAD electrical, they have all you need,
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/tm-1.shtml
Read all he has to say including sections about alternators in the tech section.

 

[L&N_5ss]

Re: Wiring Ford solenoid help

Match your starter number with the correct number on the Powermaster instruction chart -
https://www.powermastermotorsports.com/starters1.html


Check this UTube video - "GM Powermaster starter"

I don't see the need for a Ford solenoid between the relocated battery and the starter, because the Mini starter has its own solenoid. The ign. small terminal on the Mini starter is the same as the "S" terminal on the GM original starter. www.dellcity.net has a high amp circuit breaker with 3/8" studs, P/N 77079 for $44.

The Mini starter does not have a separate terminal that supplies + 12 volts to the positive side of the ignition coil, so you will need a wire with a diode (as shown in the Utube video) to go from the ign. terminal on the Mini starter to the positive side of the coil.

Be sure to run a 2 ga. or larger cable from the relocated battery + terminal to the Mini starter large stud terminal to compensate for voltage drop.

Hope that this helps

 

[BrayJo]

Check out MAD electrical, they have all you need,
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/tm-1.shtml
Read all he has to say including sections about alternators in the tech section.

Ahh, thanks. I ran across some of his pics on the net.

 

[BrayJo]

I think I found a picture of what I was trying to say

http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm

 

[Custom Jim]

I have to ask a few things before answering you but why are you adding a Ford style solenoid to a Powermaster Mini Starter ?.

With your battery in the trunk are you wanting this solenoid to only have the starter cable being powered when starting and then dead at all other times ?. If you are doing this then keep in mind the main power from the car cannot come off of the starter cable down at the starter.

While you may not have enough posts for adding pictures, you should be able to add links to drawings or pictures on another site you have uploaded them to.

One last thing is the Ford Style solenoids require that they be mounted to a clean bare metal vehicle ground or if the solenoid is mounted to plastic the mounting tabs/ears need to be electrically connected to the vehicles ground. Be aware too that I doubt you have this style of solenoid, I have seen some that the small studs are for activating the solenoids coil and the wiring differs slightly from the Ford style ones. How you are describing the lettering molded into it (the "S" and "I" studs) this should be a Ford style solenoid.

Jim

 

[BrayJo]

I have to ask a few things before answering you but why are you adding a Ford style solenoid to a Powermaster Mini Starter ?.

With your battery in the trunk are you wanting this solenoid to only have the starter cable being powered when starting and then dead at all other times ?. If you are doing this then keep in mind the main power from the car cannot come off of the starter cable down at the starter.

While you may not have enough posts for adding pictures, you should be able to add links to drawings or pictures on another site you have uploaded them to.

One last thing is the Ford Style solenoids require that they be mounted to a clean bare metal vehicle ground or if the solenoid is mounted to plastic the mounting tabs/ears need to be electrically connected to the vehicles ground. Be aware too that I doubt you have this style of solenoid, I have seen some that the small studs are for activating the solenoids coil and the wiring differs slightly from the Ford style ones. How you are describing the lettering molded into it (the "S" and "I" studs) this should be a Ford style solenoid.

Jim

Just today I was able to hunt down a pic of what I was trying to describe. See below.

http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm

What I was thinking is, now that I put the battery in the trunk and have to run cable, why not try to prevent hot start situations while I'm at it.

The solenoid is grounded to the frame. What I was trying to describe here, "I can run a power supply for the fuse block to the previous wire that connected the horn relay, key ignition etc" ...rather badly I guess, is having to power the fuse block from the A terminal battery cable side of the solenoid.

I welcome your thoughts

 

[Custom Jim]

Just today I was able to hunt down a pic of what I was trying to describe. See below.

http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm

What I was thinking is, now that I put the battery in the trunk and have to run cable, why not try to prevent hot start situations while I'm at it.

The solenoid is grounded to the frame. What I was trying to describe here, "I can run a power supply for the fuse block to the previous wire that connected the horn relay, key ignition etc" ...rather badly I guess, is having to power the fuse block from the A terminal battery cable side of the solenoid.

I welcome your thoughts

In the above link, there is a drawing on the bottom but is shows NOTHING as to where the Ford solenoid is between the battery and the starter. You can have the solenoid back by the battery or up front on the firewall. Heck you could have it inside the interior and anywhere between the battery and starter.

Keep in mind that the drawing is VERY basic with it's info and you have to watch out how things would get wired to be safe, reliable, and limit voltage drops.

Now I've lost bet's before but I'm going to say with a new mini starter and a good solenoid that comes with it, you will not need the secondary Ford solenoid. If the rest of the car's electrical system is sub par like wanting to use a 50 year old ignition switch on the column, original corroded 50 year old connections in spots like the bulkhead connector, possibly frayed crimped factory connections in spots in the loom. and so forth you can still have problems and adding this secondary Ford solenoid may have things work but to me time would be better spent correcting other things and not adding things to band-aid things along.

While I have not looked up specifications on somethings, I'm pretty confident that the new solenoid draws less power than the old original styles and then throw into the mix that the new starter will probably draw less current than an original and I don' see the need for the secondary Ford style solenoid. You have to look as to how the original starter circuit was wired. You got power off of the battery and it passed through the bulkhead connector and then went up to the ignition switch. The power hen got sent through a set of contacts back out of the switch into some more wire that then went into a safety switch with it's set of contacts. From there it went yet into another wire and passed back through the firewall connector and eventually ended up down at the starter solenoid. Tons of connections and contacts and since we are dealing with just 12V of power, a little drop here and there and instead of getting 11.5V or more at the solenoid, now due to poor connections and such the solenoid might only be getting 8V. BIG drop there and things don't then work right.

I know a lot of people and myself included have installed the main battery in the trunk or hatch area on a vehicle but there are also different designs of the electrical system and connections. You can go the VERY basic way of doing it with taking off the short original cable going between the battery positive post and the starter solenoid and then replacing it with a longer and larger gauge cable to then go from the starter solenoid back to the rear mounted battery positive post (and then address the ground side) and you should be good to go. Another design has people wanting to be able to disconnect the rear mounted battery with a switch so that it passes a racing organizations technical inspection. This then normally requires more work as now if the switch was turned off and the motor and alternator are working, the engine may not shut off like it should to pass the inspection.

If you can layout or describe how you are wanting things with the solenoid location, what you are thinking with battery cable sizes, and what you are trying to achieve.

I have some diagrams I put together a while back and look at them and maybe this can give you some more insight with putting the battery in the trunk:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157656656084141

Jim

 

[Mike52]

Bray, this might help you. https://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm

 

[BrayJo]

In the above link, there is a drawing on the bottom but is shows NOTHING as to where the Ford solenoid is between the battery and the starter. You can have the solenoid back by the battery or up front on the firewall. Heck you could have it inside the interior and anywhere between the battery and starter.

Keep in mind that the drawing is VERY basic with it's info and you have to watch out how things would get wired to be safe, reliable, and limit voltage drops.

Now I've lost bet's before but I'm going to say with a new mini starter and a good solenoid that comes with it, you will not need the secondary Ford solenoid. If the rest of the car's electrical system is sub par like wanting to use a 50 year old ignition switch on the column, original corroded 50 year old connections in spots like the bulkhead connector, possibly frayed crimped factory connections in spots in the loom. and so forth you can still have problems and adding this secondary Ford solenoid may have things work but to me time would be better spent correcting other things and not adding things to band-aid things along.

While I have not looked up specifications on somethings, I'm pretty confident that the new solenoid draws less power than the old original styles and then throw into the mix that the new starter will probably draw less current than an original and I don' see the need for the secondary Ford style solenoid. You have to look as to how the original starter circuit was wired. You got power off of the battery and it passed through the bulkhead connector and then went up to the ignition switch. The power hen got sent through a set of contacts back out of the switch into some more wire that then went into a safety switch with it's set of contacts. From there it went yet into another wire and passed back through the firewall connector and eventually ended up down at the starter solenoid. Tons of connections and contacts and since we are dealing with just 12V of power, a little drop here and there and instead of getting 11.5V or more at the solenoid, now due to poor connections and such the solenoid might only be getting 8V. BIG drop there and things don't then work right.

I know a lot of people and myself included have installed the main battery in the trunk or hatch area on a vehicle but there are also different designs of the electrical system and connections. You can go the VERY basic way of doing it with taking off the short original cable going between the battery positive post and the starter solenoid and then replacing it with a longer and larger gauge cable to then go from the starter solenoid back to the rear mounted battery positive post (and then address the ground side) and you should be good to go. Another design has people wanting to be able to disconnect the rear mounted battery with a switch so that it passes a racing organizations technical inspection. This then normally requires more work as now if the switch was turned off and the motor and alternator are working, the engine may not shut off like it should to pass the inspection.

If you can layout or describe how you are wanting things with the solenoid location, what you are thinking with battery cable sizes, and what you are trying to achieve.

I have some diagrams I put together a while back and look at them and maybe this can give you some more insight with putting the battery in the trunk:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157656656084141

Jim

Below is a link to my setup so far.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/45635545071/in/dateposted-public/

The Bat in trunk, the solenoid right next to it. Solenoid grounded to bare spot in trunk (plan on running that eventually down the same grommet hole the neg cable is grounded to on frame). I am using 1/0 pos and neg cables, and the smaller wire running from right side (B) solenoid terminal is 8 ga ran to the "ign" on starter. The "S" terminal at solenoid goes to original ign spade wire activated at key, "I" terminal at solenoid remains bare. I will have to run another wire w/ fuseable link from bat to power fuse block, and another fuseable linked 8 ga wire to alternator.

Both positive and neg cables run through cabin to fire wall bulkhead connectors. At the pos bulkhead terminal inside the cabin, planned on a terminal block w/ fuses and relays to run fan, fuel pump, etc..

Is that about right?

 

[Custom Jim]

The Bat in trunk, the solenoid right next to it.

Solenoid grounded to bare spot in trunk (plan on running that eventually down the same grommet hole the neg cable is grounded to on frame).

I am using 1/0 pos and neg cables, and the smaller wire running from right side (B) solenoid terminal is 8 ga ran to the "ign" on starter.

The "S" terminal at solenoid goes to original ign spade wire activated at key.

"I" terminal at solenoid remains bare.

I will have to run another wire w/ fuseable link from bat to power fuse block, and another fuseable linked 8 ga wire to alternator.

Both positive and neg cables run through cabin to fire wall bulkhead connectors. At the pos bulkhead terminal inside the cabin, planned on a terminal block w/ fuses and relays to run fan, fuel pump, etc..

Is that about right?

Am I on the right track with how you are thinking of wiring it with the above diagram ?.


If so, maybe think about this ?:

I did not include where the alternator would tie in but it could be down on the starter or run back to the battery. If I have time, I'll try and update the diagram or fine tune it with more input from you.

Feel free to copy and modify my drawings if needed.

Jim

 

[BrayJo]

Am I on the right track with how you are thinking of wiring it with the above diagram ?.


If so, maybe think about this ?:

I did not include where the alternator would tie in but it could be down on the starter or run back to the battery. If I have time, I'll try and update the diagram or fine tune it with more input from you.

Feel free to copy and modify my drawings if needed.

Jim

Thanks Jim

Yes, diagram "A" is exactly the direction I was heading. Did do some webbing last night and ran into statements, and as you mentioned, mini starters apparently don't use as much amperage to energize.

What is the benefit of a high torque starter?

High torques starters can provide a number of benefits compared to the factory style direct drive starters. These benefits include:

• A physically smaller starter which is beneficial when space is an issue due to headers, deep sump oil pans, steering linkage, etc.
• Many units are rotatable or have solenoids that will sit further away from heat sources.
• The mini high torque units typically draw about half the amperage of stock starters.
• They have gear reduction which provides better cranking because they develop higher torque. This is necessary with higher compression engines.

http://www.qualitypowerauto.com/pages/StarterFAQ.php#Starter2

I was going to tie in the Alt at the fire wall bulkhead terminal.
I know it's your view that I don't need the remote, and frankly going the no remote way wouldn't require me to run wire from the S and B terminals of the solenoid. I may just go that direction.

 

[Custom Jim]

Below is a variable I did on my 73.

Basically I used relays like the Ford style but they are made to be on 24/7 if needed (the ford style are made for intermittent use).

My design was setup to where when the key is off I do not have to worry about any underhood live/hot terminals or wiring since I do a lot of cleaning on it and wanted to where when I checked nuts and bolts for being tight, I didn't have to worry about becoming a "sparky". I also have the relay for the output of the alternator wired through a switch since years ago I competed in car audio contests and a test was for alternator whine and by connecting and disconnecting the alternators output, the judge could determine of there was or was not any noise.

I have fuses on my wiring and this is a subject of conversation especially on the starter cable BUT I have not blown the fuse and if the cable after the fuse and/or the solenoid would ever short to ground, I can correct the issue, replace the fuse and be on my way.

ANYWAY, yes the new starter motors do draw less power and while I haven't looked, chances are the solenoids to activate the starters have also improved and they too may also draw less power than the original 60's style ones from GM.

One thing that is not shown in my basic drawings, is there is a ground cable from the battery negative post to ground and a lot of people attach it to a rear frame rail or in the trunk area but keep in mind, up front also run another ground cable between the firewall and the engine. Most engines are on rubber mounts as well as the subframe floating on rubber mounts so this connection is very important. Like it's been said before, you can never have too many grounds.

Jim

 

[BrayJo]

I pretty much followed the Ron Francis grounding pic.

Except my 1/0 ground cable from the battery runs to a firewall bulkhead terminal, from there to the engine block. I don't have rubber motor mounts so I should be more that good come grounds. I also plan on running a grounding terminal block from the inside bulkhead terminal to ground fuel pump, fan, etc.

I think I will take your suggestion and just bag the Ford solenoid. It keeps me from having to run more long lengths of wire through the cabin in addition to the battery cables.

Your flickr pics are awesome.