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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

I'm looking for a little advise here if you would, for those of you who might not have seen, I am going to show off a picture of where this car started from.




As of lately I have been working on getting all of that surface rust removed and I am feeling really good about my progress.

So I have reached a point now where I question if the rust is knocked down far enough to cover with epoxy primer and not have to worry about it any more or should I keep working it until it is 100% completely gone.

My worry is in over working my body panels trying to get rid of the rust, sanding and grinding, warping from over heating or even working it with the little spot sand blaster.

Here are a few more progress shots.


First shot


Progress


current


current


So there is my progress, I am quite happy with it. My next step would be to use the spot blaster and go over each of those spots if need be, but is it necessary?

I dont mind spending the time but just dont want to use the resources if I am getting into overkill.

Thanks for the help.
 

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I had a similar problem years ago on some body panels and I used SEM's Rust Seal to seal the rust. SEM also makes Rust Mort. A body supply shop can advise you which one is better for your situation but I feel it is essential that you treat the rust with a product made for that purpose BEFORE YOU APPLY YOUR PRIMER. You certainly do not want the rust coming back years after you have the car painted!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hey Greg,

thank you so much for your comment. That is my motivation behind asking for the help. I certainly do not want to have this bite me in the butt in 5 years.
 

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72 Frame off, bare metal resto-mod. 383, TH350, Eaton Posi, Complete new suspension, disk brakes
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Nice job with your cleanup so far. What are you doing to keep the clean areas from rusting? I'm not trying to scare you, but steel develops an oxidized layer very quickly when uncoated. Getting even a thin layer of motor oil on it can prevent the oxidation that is really raw rust. Given the humidity where you live and the "before" rust, are you or have you removed the interior and glass? I would suggest doing that and take it to a media blaster that works with old cars in your area. Yes, it's going to cost you some bucks, but when it's done you can get the metal sealed within a day and ensure a good base for your paint. In the end you will spend as much on sandpaper and other supplies and just getting it done. There's a reason I know that.
Also, these cars have some "normal" trouble spots for serious rust and the window flanges, where the glass mounts, is one of them.
Keep going, and keep us up to date with your progress. Oh, and thanks for posting pictures with your question. Not many of us here are visionaries, but we are visual.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hey Pete,

Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I've actually been using "Navel Jelly" applications along with 40 and 80 paper on a DA, and a little hand held speed blaster. The combination has done really we for me.

I was very cautious of leaving my raw steel out in the Georgia elements, even if it is always in my garage. I feel like the "Navel Jelly" has left some residual protection on the metal for me as I have not seen any flash rusting.

My game plan was to work though the car panel by panel and coat the finished areas with epoxy primer. As I stand now, I am leaning toward using my speed blaster to finish blasting out those tiny pits.

Thanks again for the encouragement, I'll look forward to hearing back from you if you might have anything to add. Thanks
 

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I'm uncertain what "Navel Jelly" is,but i'd be very cautious to apply anything over raw steel(that might not flush out prior to priming)except epoxy primer. ALL signs of corrosion,even the smallest pittings should be corrected before you prime. Of course it's nice to prep and prime a whole car simultaneously,but i would NOT entertain prepping the car to raw steel and leaving it for more than a few hours. You're better to FULLY prep a panel or two,PRIME them and continue to move around the car until it's truly sealed. You may be able to gently "spot blast" the deepest pores of corrosion with a small hand-held blaster to clean ALL rust out,but proceed cautiously to avoid warping any panels.(Test some scrap steel of a similar thickness prior to attacking your car) Use minimal air pressure,and a mild blasting medium like walnut shells.
Consider this stage the "foundation" of your build. You wouldn't build a house on a poor foundation,so take the time to get it right, and save yourself MUCH expense and irritation later. For what it's worth,I'm a Body shop owner and journeyman automotive Painter,so i'm speaking from experience. "TechNova" on the site is also a certified painter and a solid wealth of knowledge,so don't hesitate to ask.:D
Good luck,
Leftcoast Carl:)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
hey Carl,

Thanks for the time. I totally understand about foundational analogy and thats why I am looking for help of the forum.

navel Jelly is a product that "dissolves" rust. You can literally apply the product to a rusted area, and with a wire brush, you can scrub the rust away.

I am feeling pretty sure at this point that I will be using the spot blaster to finish the job completely.

thanks for the tip guys.
 

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72 Frame off, bare metal resto-mod. 383, TH350, Eaton Posi, Complete new suspension, disk brakes
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I gotta ask, what about the inside of all of those panels? Not trying to blow a hole in your enthusiasm, but there can be some real nasty surprises hidden in the clogged body drains and panel joints. From what I've seen, these old cars tended to rust from the inside out. It would really suck if you got the exterior ready for paint and it came through or worse after paint.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
hey Pete,

Believe it or not, the car is solid. The previous owner tried to make a run at restoring it, so he/they got a paint stripping chemical and a scrapper then went to town.

Somewhere along the way lost interest and left the poor car sitting in an open barn with no protection. I have a couple little spots to work on with rot but nothing of a big deal.

I talked to a guy today that saw my pictures and he reccomended an etching primer. He said that with as little as all of these spots are that an etching primer can chew into these little pockets or rust and seal them.

Any thoughts?
 

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I RUST MORTED MY '66 WHEN I DID IT, AT THE TIME I HADN'T HEARD OF ANYTHING ELSE. BUT THERE'S OTHER STUFF ON THE MARKET, SOME TO HELP STOP RUST IN IT'S TRACKS, SOME TO STOP IT FROM COMING BACK! NOW ON THE '62 I USED POR 15.
BUT YOUR METAL LOOKS LIKE MINE ON THE '62 AND THE PAINT CAME OUT GREAT, I THINK BETTER THAN MY '66 AND THE SAME GUY PAINTED BOTH!
GOOD LUCK BRIAN! :thumbsup:


 

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When i did my car i had similar issues, and my body man was very adamant about getting rid of all the dark spots (rust pits) before priming. I did this by sandblasting with a siphon feed blaster and extremely fine sand.

I could not buy sand fine enough, so i bought the finest they sold, and started blasting my door jambs etc. after this intiial blasting, i recoverd the sand, blasted more, and repeated that, until the sand i had left was not quite as fine as a powder (but close).

At that point I used the super fine sand on the sheetmetal with the small pits. The small particles of sand could now actually get into the pits, and blast out the rust. When you first buy the sand, the grains are too big to even fit into the pits, so you cant blast the rust out.

Worked well for me, but took some time. the cars only been painted 2.5 yrs, but so far so good.

Remember when sandblasting to use care not to warp the panels, by using low pressure, and blasting at a 45 degree angle to the panel or so.

I would highly advise you not prime until all the dark spots are removed, the rust will always be there, ready to get back out if you dont get rid of it, and now is the time to do it. Those rust converters may work on a frame, but on finished bodywork, they have no place, IMO.

Again this is all my opinion, use your own discretion, talk to plenty of experts, and do lots of research. there is a lot to be found on the internet.

If you need any other info or clarification, please let me know.
Ben
 

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I have a similar situation. I've been stripping paint and cleaning surface rust panel by panel. When I'm done I've covered the panels in rattle can primer.

My thought was to re-sand all the rattle can primer down with a da, shoot the entire car in epoxy. Then add a little body work, 2k filler, color, clear. Is this the correct approach?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
hey bs,

funny as it is, I already had to sand off a coat of primer because I didnt understand what exactly I was doing.

Id say know where you are with the project and do your best with that you have. Shoot some pictures and start a thread, it will be a lot easier to get advise with pics. :cool::cool:
 

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ABOUT BARE METAL:

There are a number of ways to prepare bare steel prior to the application of your paint system. Please understand these are systems and this is the first step so it is important as a foundation. Pro’s tend to use etch primers or direct to metal filler primers due to the speed of the process. Time is money after all. As a hobbyist the following method is what I use. No method is necessarily better than the other and they are all correct and accepted methods. You can decide what works best for you.


PPG TWO STEP METAL TREATMENT TUTORIAL:

As hobbyist, we seldom have the time to complete a metal process (patch, weld grind) and spray protective primer expediently. PPG’s two step metal treatment will allow me to keep my car in bare steel for several months without it rusting. If a spot does re-rust I simply re-treat it until I am ready to spray expensive epoxy primer. Plus, PPG says it promotes “Superior Adhesion” combined with their DP line of epoxy primer which I like.

The example below is a side marker light I shaved on my 72. People come over and marvel at how flat it is and the first thing they do is rub it with their hands. Although it was treated when I finished it, the oil from their hands will make it start to rust again. I re-treated it and took some photos so I could document this process as it come up a lot in discussion.

The following procedure is an embellishment to the product instructions which should be read thoroughly prior to use. I have developed this procedure from using the products many times. To me, it makes the process faster and more efficient. I did the example below in approximately five minutes including product working times.

DX-579 Metal Cleaner
Mechanically remove loose rust with scotch bright, sandpaper or a wire brush.
Spray DX-579 on the surface and work it in with a red scotch bright pad.
The P-Sheet recommends a mix ratio but I use it full strength at times.
Keep the surface wet with DX-579 until all the rust is gone.
Continue to scrub stubborn areas until clean.
This is an acid and it takes some time to work.
Rinse the surface with clear water while scrubbing it with a red scotch bright pad.
The DX-579 is a little slimy so the scrubbing helps ensure it is all gone.
Dry the part with paper towels and blow it dry with compressed air.

DX-520 Metal Conditioner
After drying the part you may see orange (rust) streaks in the metal.
The DX-520 will remove the light rust streaks.
Spray DX-520 on the surface and scrub it in with a fresh scotch bright pad.
Just work it in initially and then put the scotch bright down for good.
Keep the surface wet with DX-520 until you see it turn a dull gray.
DX-520 deposits a microscopic zinc phosphate coating that builds up on the surface.
The longer you leave it on the darker it will get with the coating.
The coating acts as a sacrificial anode to prevent rust similar to galvanizing.
Don’t continue to scrub with scotch bright or you will remove the coating.
Rinse the part with sheeting clear water to remove the DX-520.
Immediately dry the part with a paper towel and blow dry.
Try not to touch the part with your bare hands after treating.

TIPS FOR USE:
With light surface rust you can skip the DX-579 step. The DX-520 will remove it.
You still need to clean the treated surface with wax and grease remover prior to primer.
The products are water soluble and can be applied with a pump spray bottle.
After 24 hours you should re-treat with DX-520 only prior to priming.
I don’t wear gloves but you probably should with the DX-579.
Oddly, I found the DX-579 will remove mill scale.

PHOTOS:

Before the final welding and metal finishing. Note the date stamp.


After several months with people touching it. Note the date stamp.


After the DX-579, dry and ready for DX-520.


Surface is wet with DX-520 as it deposits zinc phosphate. It is a little sudsy (surfactant quality) so it stays wet and rinses off easily. Note how the acid shows the difference in the weld metal and parent metal.


Clean and dry, the surface will now remain rust free as I work on other areas of the car.


These spray bottles are at Home Depot and work well for application. And before you ask, no, that is not my FORD in the back ground.


This is a much larger area. In fact I did the entire trunk area all at one time after tubing my car. It took me about 20 minutes.


This is a link to the P-Sheet # P-226 (instructions) from PPG.
http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-226.pdf

Hope this helps,

Steve
 

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ABOUT BARE METAL:

There are a number of ways to prepare bare steel prior to the application of your paint system. Please understand these are systems and this is the first step so it is important as a foundation. Pro’s tend to use etch primers or direct to metal filler primers due to the speed of the process. Time is money after all. As a hobbyist the following method is what I use. No method is necessarily better than the other and they are all correct and accepted methods. You can decide what works best for you.


PPG TWO STEP METAL TREATMENT TUTORIAL:

As hobbyist, we seldom have the time to complete a metal process (patch, weld grind) and spray protective primer expediently. PPG’s two step metal treatment will allow me to keep my car in bare steel for several months without it rusting. If a spot does re-rust I simply re-treat it until I am ready to spray expensive epoxy primer. Plus, PPG says it promotes “Superior Adhesion” combined with their DP line of epoxy primer which I like.

The example below is a side marker light I shaved on my 72. People come over and marvel at how flat it is and the first thing they do is rub it with their hands. Although it was treated when I finished it, the oil from their hands will make it start to rust again. I re-treated it and took some photos so I could document this process as it come up a lot in discussion.

The following procedure is an embellishment to the product instructions which should be read thoroughly prior to use. I have developed this procedure from using the products many times. To me, it makes the process faster and more efficient. I did the example below in approximately five minutes including product working times.

DX-579 Metal Cleaner
Mechanically remove loose rust with scotch bright, sandpaper or a wire brush.
Spray DX-579 on the surface and work it in with a red scotch bright pad.
The P-Sheet recommends a mix ratio but I use it full strength at times.
Keep the surface wet with DX-579 until all the rust is gone.
Continue to scrub stubborn areas until clean.
This is an acid and it takes some time to work.
Rinse the surface with clear water while scrubbing it with a red scotch bright pad.
The DX-579 is a little slimy so the scrubbing helps ensure it is all gone.
Dry the part with paper towels and blow it dry with compressed air.

DX-520 Metal Conditioner
After drying the part you may see orange (rust) streaks in the metal.
The DX-520 will remove the light rust streaks.
Spray DX-520 on the surface and scrub it in with a fresh scotch bright pad.
Just work it in initially and then put the scotch bright down for good.
Keep the surface wet with DX-520 until you see it turn a dull gray.
DX-520 deposits a microscopic zinc phosphate coating that builds up on the surface.
The longer you leave it on the darker it will get with the coating.
The coating acts as a sacrificial anode to prevent rust similar to galvanizing.
Don’t continue to scrub with scotch bright or you will remove the coating.
Rinse the part with sheeting clear water to remove the DX-520.
Immediately dry the part with a paper towel and blow dry.
Try not to touch the part with your bare hands after treating.

TIPS FOR USE:
With light surface rust you can skip the DX-579 step. The DX-520 will remove it.
You still need to clean the treated surface with wax and grease remover prior to primer.
The products are water soluble and can be applied with a pump spray bottle.
After 24 hours you should re-treat with DX-520 only prior to priming.
I don’t wear gloves but you probably should with the DX-579.
Oddly, I found the DX-579 will remove mill scale.

PHOTOS:

Before the final welding and metal finishing. Note the date stamp.


After several months with people touching it. Note the date stamp.


After the DX-579, dry and ready for DX-520.


Surface is wet with DX-520 as it deposits zinc phosphate. It is a little sudsy (surfactant quality) so it stays wet and rinses off easily. Note how the acid shows the difference in the weld metal and parent metal.


Clean and dry, the surface will now remain rust free as I work on other areas of the car.


These spray bottles are at Home Depot and work well for application. And before you ask, no, that is not my FORD in the back ground.


This is a much larger area. In fact I did the entire trunk area all at one time after tubing my car. It took me about 20 minutes.


This is a link to the P-Sheet # P-226 (instructions) from PPG.
http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-226.pdf

Hope this helps,

Steve

Nice info :yes::yes: .

Tony
 

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I have used Ospho many years back. It is a green color acid which works very well. It goes by many names, but it is phosphoric acid. Turns the rust into primer it says. I always let it dry 24 hours, then hit it with 80 grit on the DA sander, mop it with lacquer thinner and then prime with a few coats of lacquer primer. Great stuff.
 

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rust removal

i saw a guy dont know his name on youtube he used vinegar water it is a rust converter you use one part vinegar to 3 parts water and scrub it with a course large 3m scotchbright pad and it converts the rust and he says the rust will not come back thanks
 

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I have used Ospho many years back. It is a green color acid which works very well. It goes by many names, but it is phosphoric acid. Turns the rust into primer it says. I always let it dry 24 hours, then hit it with 80 grit on the DA sander, mop it with lacquer thinner and then prime with a few coats of lacquer primer. Great stuff.
I too have had great success with Ospho. It is thinner than water and can be brushed on or better yet, applied with a spray bottle. Goggle it, it works!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
hey guys,

So after all of the advise and back and forth, I dropped my car off to media blast on Friday, I'll have it back Monday. I'll be sure to post pics.

thanks again for all of the great help.

Brian
 
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