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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
engine running hot. zz-4 , 64 cc heads pro flo fuel injection, didn't have any problems with this car over heating untill i got my vintage air system installed, i have a proform electric fan part # 141-647 its a 2800 cfm fan . if i just turn the fan on and run it all the time it takes a while to overheat , stop and go driving will do it, the fan comes on at like 190 then goes off but once the temp starts rising my gauge goes to 210 before it starts to come back down. i have a 180 therm, i have a gauge in the drivers driverside side head and also a gauge in the thermostat housing. ive looked for a bigger fan but really cannot find one that i think is much bigger to do the job , i dont think a 3000 cfm is going to do it, all the ones i see seem to be double fans for a lot larger size radiator, i have the 3 row champion aluminum radiator, im ready to just go back to a mech fan , my a/c condenser is about 2 " away from the radiator, the fan is a puller , i do have a reverse rotation water pump , not sure if that makes it better or worse..
 

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vintage air - might be messing with the amperage needed to run your fan at full capacity.
Does it run fine when the AC is off?

No electric fan will ever pull the CFM of a mechanical - swap it back over and try it out if u have the parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
vintage air - might be messing with the amperage needed to run your fan at full capacity.
Does it run fine when the AC is off?

No electric fan will ever pull the CFM of a mechanical - swap it back over and try it out if u have the parts.
no its been runninig hot ever since i installed the condenser in front of the radiator i thought a 2800cfm fan would do it but i guuess not
 

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Ya it's not pulling enough air through both of them. You could try a pusher fan on front of the condenser or - just use a mechanical - it's cheap reliable and quick


Sent from my iPhone using AG Free
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ya it's not pulling enough air through both of them. You could try a pusher fan on front of the condenser or - just use a mechanical - it's cheap reliable and quick


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i thought about a small pusher fan on the front but id prolly have to leave it on all the time and there goes more power. im going to the old style i guess, electric looks cool but if it aint workin .. problem is i need reverse rotation fan and clutch assy, so i have to buy MORE parts... then i have another part to toss on the pile that i cannot use.. yikes ..
 

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Just about Any tbi engine in the junk yard will have the fan assy you need. But with the correct wiring and relays you should be fine with current to the fans, since you need the reverse fan I'm assuming you are running serpentine system. And those normally have a much higher amperage than stock novas.

I would replace your fan and just about any pro form product, run a Taurus efan or a set of ls1 fans, I've ran the same 31x19" Griffin radiator with ls1 fans for years even with over 500hp with no issues, I'm running vintage air now and the hottest its gotten is 190, and that was in a traffic jam and over 110 outside.
 

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engine running hot. zz-4 , 64 cc heads pro flo fuel injection, didn't have any problems with this car over heating untill i got my vintage air system installed, i have a proform electric fan part # 141-647 its a 2800 cfm fan . if i just turn the fan on and run it all the time it takes a while to overheat , stop and go driving will do it, the fan comes on at like 190 then goes off but once the temp starts rising my gauge goes to 210 before it starts to come back down. i have a 180 therm, i have a gauge in the drivers driverside side head and also a gauge in the thermostat housing. ive looked for a bigger fan but really cannot find one that i think is much bigger to do the job , i dont think a 3000 cfm is going to do it, all the ones i see seem to be double fans for a lot larger size radiator, i have the 3 row champion aluminum radiator, im ready to just go back to a mech fan , my a/c condenser is about 2 " away from the radiator, the fan is a puller , i do have a reverse rotation water pump , not sure if that makes it better or worse..
I had a similar issue with my street rod and the AC setup.

First off, as someone else said about voltage, what amp alternator do you have?

I had a 100 amp to start with and all seemed okay. While on a 6200 mile cruise, I had an alternator failure and all I could get at the time was a 74 amp unit from a NAPA store that would fit my setup. Not even with the AC on, when I was in stop and go traffic my voltage would drop down to around 11 volts and the twin Spal 11" fans would slow WAY down. With the AC on it was even worse.

Also a rule of thumb is that for every 1000 cfm the motor will drawing about 10 amps. So you're pulling around25 to 30 amps JUST on your fan, let alone ignition, stereo, AC/heater fan etc. At idle you'll be very hard pressed to keep up with that amount of draw.

On my next project I purchased a Power Master 140 amp with high output at idle. I believe the "dyno" tag on the alternator said it would produce around 60 amps @ 1000 rpms. I did not have a chance to use it as I sold the car prior to finishing, but you get the idea.

The last comment based on my experience is that at 2" you are too far away from your radiator with the condenser. Don't ask me why, but at that distance you get a buffeting between the two and the air will not go through the radiator core. I called Vintage Air and they said that 1/4" was the best distance. Once I moved it in the temp came down. I also packed thin foam rubber around the condenser to "seal" the gap between the two and I'm not sure if that did anything to help, but it made me feel better.

The first thing I would try is moving the condenser to within 1/4" from the radiator and see what happens. This will probably not be hard to do in a temporary test situation.

Also with my twin fans, because I learned the hard way, I had separated them to power them through two independent 30 amp relays. I had them both through a 40 amp and I fried all the terminals and melted the relay. Anyway, with the AC on I turned on the one fan that was directly behind the condenser. Most if not all factory applications will force the cooling fan on when the AC is turned on. Or if they have twin fans, they will only cycle the one on like I did. Wonder where I picked up that idea???

I'm not a big fan of pusher fan applications. The fan housing itself will block and disturb the airflow. I know that when you use a single fan the fan motor can be right in front of the water pump pulley and it just will not fit, but there are some twin fan setups that are setup diagonally that lets the water pump to come between the two fan motors for enough clearance. Most quality twin fan systems have free flowing vents or flaps that allow the air to pass through the radiator and out the fan housing without blocking much flow. When the fans kick on the flaps will close up allowing the fans to create a very low pressure behind the radiator for better air flow.

Sorry again for the long winded post. I tend to ramble and think of more as I type. Once my fingers get talking, I cannot shut them up!!!

Good luck with your overheating issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I had a similar issue with my street rod and the AC setup.

First off, as someone else said about voltage, what amp alternator do you have?

I had a 100 amp to start with and all seemed okay. While on a 6200 mile cruise, I had an alternator failure and all I could get at the time was a 74 amp unit from a NAPA store that would fit my setup. Not even with the AC on, when I was in stop and go traffic my voltage would drop down to around 11 volts and the twin Spal 11" fans would slow WAY down. With the AC on it was even worse.

Also a rule of thumb is that for every 1000 cfm the motor will drawing about 10 amps. So you're pulling around25 to 30 amps JUST on your fan, let alone ignition, stereo, AC/heater fan etc. At idle you'll be very hard pressed to keep up with that amount of draw.

On my next project I purchased a Power Master 140 amp with high output at idle. I believe the "dyno" tag on the alternator said it would produce around 60 amps @ 1000 rpms. I did not have a chance to use it as I sold the car prior to finishing, but you get the idea.

The last comment based on my experience is that at 2" you are too far away from your radiator with the condenser. Don't ask me why, but at that distance you get a buffeting between the two and the air will not go through the radiator core. I called Vintage Air and they said that 1/4" was the best distance. Once I moved it in the temp came down. I also packed thin foam rubber around the condenser to "seal" the gap between the two and I'm not sure if that did anything to help, but it made me feel better.

The first thing I would try is moving the condenser to within 1/4" from the radiator and see what happens. This will probably not be hard to do in a temporary test situation.

Also with my twin fans, because I learned the hard way, I had separated them to power them through two independent 30 amp relays. I had them both through a 40 amp and I fried all the terminals and melted the relay. Anyway, with the AC on I turned on the one fan that was directly behind the condenser. Most if not all factory applications will force the cooling fan on when the AC is turned on. Or if they have twin fans, they will only cycle the one on like I did. Wonder where I picked up that idea???

I'm not a big fan of pusher fan applications. The fan housing itself will block and disturb the airflow. I know that when you use a single fan the fan motor can be right in front of the water pump pulley and it just will not fit, but there are some twin fan setups that are setup diagonally that lets the water pump to come between the two fan motors for enough clearance. Most quality twin fan systems have free flowing vents or flaps that allow the air to pass through the radiator and out the fan housing without blocking much flow. When the fans kick on the flaps will close up allowing the fans to create a very low pressure behind the radiator for better air flow.

Sorry again for the long winded post. I tend to ramble and think of more as I type. Once my fingers get talking, I cannot shut them up!!!

Good luck with your overheating issues.
WELL I WENT OUR AND MEASURED THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE CONDENSER AND RADIATOR and it was 1.5" they said 1/4" that would be impossible with out butchering up my rad support, this is there sure fit system , it comes with all the brackets and hardware and bolts right in and thats where there parts put it, i could move it to the inside of the rad support but then my radiator would not fit on the core support anymore it would over hang prolly an inch .if there condenser was smaller you would be able to get it closer but this thing is almost as wide as the radiator itself.. i thought too about putting some foam in the gaps , but havent tried that..it seems all twin fan setups i have found are too wide for this radiator,its like only 27" wide and thats outside dimensions, the core is only about 20 or 21" but acording to champion this is the right radiator.. and my alt is only 100 amp,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
i got to thinking and the more thinking i did the more pissed i was getting, i thought that if vintage air was saying to mount there condenser 1/4 off the radiator , then why would they make everything so that the closest you could possibly get it is 1 1/2" ? so i called them , and the guy said 1/4 is best then i said , then why can i only mount your system 1 1/2 " away ? then he changed his tune , and said 1 1/2" was ok but that i should prolly block the side spaces somehow.. why wouldnt they just make the condenser a little smaller so it would fit right up close? i mean i love the vintage air system ,i checked the temp yesterday that it was putting out and it was like mid 20's it does work fantastic , but the car overheats,:confused:
'
 

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I had to turn my battey box a little to get my 31" radiator to fit and cut out the rad support so it would flow through all the fins, but the ls fans fit and cooling problems are a thing of the past.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
what car is that radiator out of? i hate the thought of getting another radiator after only having this one a week , .:(
 

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Discussion Starter #14
ok thanks for the info, thats cheaper than the champion one i just bought..:rolleyes:
 

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i got to thinking and the more thinking i did the more pissed i was getting, i thought that if vintage air was saying to mount there condenser 1/4 off the radiator , then why would they make everything so that the closest you could possibly get it is 1 1/2" ? so i called them , and the guy said 1/4 is best then i said , then why can i only mount your system 1 1/2 " away ? then he changed his tune , and said 1 1/2" was ok but that i should prolly block the side spaces somehow.. why wouldnt they just make the condenser a little smaller so it would fit right up close? i mean i love the vintage air system ,i checked the temp yesterday that it was putting out and it was like mid 20's it does work fantastic , but the car overheats,:confused:
'
Jim, I feel your pain, I really do.

I converted my single 16" on the Willys over to a dual Spal while in Indy at the Good Guys in our hotel parking lot, not fun at all.

I had the radiator that Outlaw said would be the one I needed. It was a 4-core Walker copper with a condenser out front. This radiator with the 16" fan on constantly would not cool well, but at highway speeds it did not over heat very much and I could drive the car. I ended up going to Be Cool and looking through all their sizes and working directly with the owner and we found a crossflow that I was able to fit in with minor mods to my front frame rails. With the change from the Walker to the Be Cool made all the difference for me. I later had to replace the Spal fan housing because I cut it up so bad installing it on the Walker in the parking lot.

After the Be Cool was when I installed my condenser and that's when I had my overheating issues. Although I had to make all my own mounts, I figured a gap was preferred so that's how I mounted it. I was able, without much problem, mount my condenser within the 1/4" the guy at Vintage Air told me. That alone did the trick for me.

I would really try with some foam and quack tape plugging the gaps and see if that helps you some. If it does, then go through the trouble of mounting the condenser closer.

I'm sure others on this site have had overheating issues with or without AC.

Here is what the twin 11" Spal looks like.



Here is a link to a Summit twin fan that's only 23.5" wide and is rated at 3,750 cfm.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-16831/?rtype=10

I know you have a new setup and it's hard to swap out brand new stuff, but I would really look at trimming the core support and upgrading to a wider radiator and cross flow if possible. Not that they cool any better; it's sq inches that count for transfering the heat from the water to the air. What does help on GM's is that the radiator cap is on the low pressure side of the radiator and it allows the radiator to hold a bit more pressure before venting into your puke tank. The slightly higher pressure will keep you cooling rather than puking coolant. Today to get wider, you're only choice will probably be a cross flow.

Just a quick question, before you added the condenser, did the car overheat?

Good luck and again I've been where you are. It may not be a cheap solution ahead.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
THANKS DAN , see at 23.46" its 3.5 inches wider than my radiator , the one i just bought , i went to the junk yard today and for 20 .00 bought a clutch fan i'm going to put it on this week and see what it does, but i think first i will try to seal up all the gaps around the rad and condenser, if it doesn't change that fan is comeing out of there like yesterdays news. i'm so tired of di- king with this if i could get 20k for this car id let someone take it away , but i can't so i'm stuck with it .. sorry just frustrated ..
 

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http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/products/Electric-Dual-Fans,-98%2d02-Camaro-Firebird-LS1-Used.html


First off they were ALL tested at Battery voltage (12.5v)
first and then with my truck running with a 30ft 4 gauge wire from my battery 14.5v

Not the exact numbers they fluctuate from 150 to 250 cfm this is an average

Battery operated

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 4800 cfm
2 fans on - 9500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5000 cfm
2 fans on - 8700 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 3700 cfm
High Speed 9000 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 2800 CFM
High speed - 5600 CFM



Alternator Powered

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5100 cfm
2 fans on - 10500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5200 cfm
2 fans on - 9500 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 4200 cfm
High Speed 10400 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 3200 CFM
High speed - 6000 CFM



So keep in mind not all fan are made the same, you can have different numbers if you have a motor that is more used than the other

so the conclusion here is that ls1/lt1 fans produce around 10000 cfm when both motors are on

they pull the same numbers compared to the stock fan that produce 10000 cfm at 3000rpm from what i have read


:yes:
 

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http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/products/Electric-Dual-Fans,-98%2d02-Camaro-Firebird-LS1-Used.html


First off they were ALL tested at Battery voltage (12.5v)
first and then with my truck running with a 30ft 4 gauge wire from my battery 14.5v

Not the exact numbers they fluctuate from 150 to 250 cfm this is an average

Battery operated

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 4800 cfm
2 fans on - 9500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5000 cfm
2 fans on - 8700 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 3700 cfm
High Speed 9000 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 2800 CFM
High speed - 5600 CFM



Alternator Powered

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5100 cfm
2 fans on - 10500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5200 cfm
2 fans on - 9500 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 4200 cfm
High Speed 10400 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 3200 CFM
High speed - 6000 CFM



So keep in mind not all fan are made the same, you can have different numbers if you have a motor that is more used than the other

so the conclusion here is that ls1/lt1 fans produce around 10000 cfm when both motors are on

they pull the same numbers compared to the stock fan that produce 10000 cfm at 3000rpm from what i have read


:yes:
Those cfm numbers are incredible. You'd need a 4-core radiator just to keep the tubes and fins from sucking through the fan blades...

Were you able to get any amp readings on these? I'd have to guess they're very high in draw.

Just curious about the cfm. How do you measure the cfm on a fan system?

Thanks for the effort in testing these like you have, it had to take a lot of time and effort.

It could be a lot easier and cheaper to source a LS1 or LT1 or Dodge fan system from a salvage yard rather than dropping $300 to $400 on aftermarket fans that have less than 1/3 the output you're showing for these fans.

Thanks again...
 

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Discussion Starter #19
big numbers

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/products/Electric-Dual-Fans,-98%2d02-Camaro-Firebird-LS1-Used.html


First off they were ALL tested at Battery voltage (12.5v)
first and then with my truck running with a 30ft 4 gauge wire from my battery 14.5v

Not the exact numbers they fluctuate from 150 to 250 cfm this is an average

Battery operated

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 4800 cfm
2 fans on - 9500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5000 cfm
2 fans on - 8700 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 3700 cfm
High Speed 9000 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 2800 CFM
High speed - 5600 CFM



Alternator Powered

LS1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5100 cfm
2 fans on - 10500cfm

LT1 FAN SHROUD
1 fan turned on - 5200 cfm
2 fans on - 9500 cfm

Dodge Fan (both fans are always on - 2 speed)
Slow speed - 4200 cfm
High Speed 10400 cfm

Ford Taurus (1 fan two speed)
Slow speed - 3200 CFM
High speed - 6000 CFM



So keep in mind not all fan are made the same, you can have different numbers if you have a motor that is more used than the other

so the conclusion here is that ls1/lt1 fans produce around 10000 cfm when both motors are on

they pull the same numbers compared to the stock fan that produce 10000 cfm at 3000rpm from what i have read


:yes:
these numbers if correct are monsterous! i guess im gettin an ls-1 fan set, thanks for all this data....
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just about Any tbi engine in the junk yard will have the fan assy you need. But with the correct wiring and relays you should be fine with current to the fans, since you need the reverse fan I'm assuming you are running serpentine system. And those normally have a much higher amperage than stock novas.

I would replace your fan and just about any pro form product, run a Taurus efan or a set of ls1 fans, I've ran the same 31x19" Griffin radiator with ls1 fans for years even with over 500hp with no issues, I'm running vintage air now and the hottest its gotten is 190, and that was in a traffic jam and over 110 outside.
ok ,i took your advice i bought the universal radiator from summit and the ls-1 fans from the links you put up , once i get all this stuff i guess ill tear this thing apart AGAIN, how did you wire these fans up is there a harness i can buy for them ? i figure you may have another link up your sleeve, i guess i have another radiator to sell now, sheeze, thanks guys for all your help , hopefully everyone else has been paying attention so they don't do the same stupid things i've done... :yes:
 
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