Chevy Nova Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
We are under attack here in Ontario and our hobby is in serious danger. Recently The Ministry of the Environment (MOE) has decided to start performing roadside checks on classic vehicles. During these checks they are looking for the removal of emission equipment such as Pcv, egr,charcoal cannisters, catalytic converters and any other emission equipment that may have been removed. The problem is is that they are using the year of manufacture of the engine block and when it was installed in the vehicle and not the YOM of the vehicle. So as an example my 1969 Nova that has a mid 90's engine block will have to have all the emission equipment that was on the engine in the 90's and also pass the all the emission requirements of a 1990's vehicle unless I can PROVE that the engine was swapped/installed into my Nova before 1999. This means that if we cannot get an exemption passed into legislation I will have to install catalytic converters, a charcoal cannister, pvc, egr etc or face heavy fines if stopped.

Here's the exact text of the MOE law as currently written:

Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods

4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

A petition has been started by MPP John O'Toole (Durham) to gain an exemption and we need a minimum of 10,000 signaturers. Several thousand have already been aquried and submitted but we need more.

Downloadable/Printable PDF. File
Click the link titled: Petition
http://www.performanceimprovements.com/

A printable petition and more information is also available here:
http://ontariorodders.activeboard.com/f549737/general-car-talk/

Here is a Q&A letter (credit: oldguy71acadian...Hi Joe:D) clipped from http://ontariorodders.activeboard.com/ that might also help to clarify.

Dear Sir,

Attached is a response to your email of Feb 26th, 2012. Thank you, Sincerely, Donna ChenDirector’s AssistantMinistry of the EnvironmentSector Compliance Branch305 Milner Ave. Suite 1000 Scarborough, ON M1B 3V4 Telephone: 416-314-0274Fax: 416-314-4464Email: [email protected]

See Below (Long Read)

____________________________________________________________

Ministry of the Environment
Sector Compliance Branch

305 Milner Ave, Suite 1000
Scarborough, Ontario
M1 B

Ministère de I’Environnement
Direction de la mise en
conformité des secteurs

305 Avenue Milner,
bureau 1000
Scarborough, Ontario
M1 B

March 1, 2012

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your dated February 26, 2012 to the Honorable Jim Bradley, Minister of the Environment, and the attached enquiry you recently made to the Ministry’s Drive Clean Office. The questions that you posed were forwarded to the Sector Compliance Branch for response. The Sector Compliance Branch administers the Vehicle Emission and Enforcement Program. The officers in this program are the ones that perform the road side emission inspections. In response to your questions we offer the following:

Q1 - lf a newer late model engine (say a 2009 LS engine) is installed in a pre 1988 vehicle, it must have all the emission controls that came with that engine?A1 - Installing the 2009 LS engine into a pre 1988 vehicle would make the vehicle fall into the
hot rod category. So in this scenario the vehicle is required at a minimum:

I to meet the emission standards of the original engine that was installed in the pre 1988 vehicle and;

I the replacement engine is required to come equipped with all the emission equipment that would normally come installed with, in this case, the 2009 LS engine. This is to ensure the emission standards of the original engine are being met by the replacement engine.

Q2 - If a pre 1988 vehicle has an engine swap with a same year engine, the new engine must
be as emission efficient as the original and haveall the emission equipment that the car came with?

A2 - lf a pre 1988 vehicle has an engine swap with a same year engine and that engine was not available with that model vehicle then it would still be considered a “hot rod” and it needs to meet the same requirements as the above scenario.

lf a pre 1988 vehicle has an engine swap with a same year engine that was available on that model vehicle for that model year:

The vehicle would have to maintain all of the emission equipment that that originally came installed by the manufacturer on that vehicle.

Q3 - So here is the scenario that most people are concerned and confused about in the "Hot Rod" sector. As an example, say a person installs a year appropriate crate engine V8 into say a 1966 car that originally came with a 6 cylinder. Do they follow the car year scenario or the engine scenario?

A3 - ln this scenario a person installs a V8 crate engine (the block size does matter as sometimes different V8’s were available in the same year, ie. 350 cubic inch) into a 1966 car that originally came equipped with a 6 cylinder engine.

lf in 1966 a 350 cubic inch V8 engine was available on that model of vehicle for that year then it would have to maintain the emission equipment that originally came installed on the 350 cubic
inch engine of that year.

lf the 350 cubic inch engine was not available on that model vehicle for that year then it is required at a minimum:

I to meet the emission standards of the original V6 engine in the 1966 vehicle and;
I is required to come equipped with all the emission equipment that would normally come installed with the crate engine.
Q4 - What exactly does the MOE look for when they inspect the vehicle? People in the hobby want to comply but are confused as to how the process and requirements are. Can you please clarify further with examples. I would like to post these findings so that others can have a clear idea of what they need to do. I appreciate any and all information that you can provide.

A4 - Ministry of the Environment officers inspect vehicles to ensure they are in compliance with emission standards set out under the Environmental Protection Act. Officers can inspect any vehicle

I emitting excessive exhaust smoke and/or

I to ensure compliance with Drive Clean requirements and/or

to ensure emissions control equipment hasn’t been tampered with, removed, bypassed, modified, or altered.

When inspecting passenger vehicles, officers visually check for emission control equipment that would have been installed on the motor or motor vehicle when it was manufactured and determine the level of compliance or non compliance.

Emission control equipment that Ministry of the Environment officers look for during an inspection include but are not limited to; catalytic converters, EGR valves (exhaust gas recirculation valve), PCVS (positive crankcase ventilation), evaporative fuel systems, air injection systems, fuel metering systems as well as a number of sensors and modules connected to the electronic engine control system.

Each component is designed to reduce certain contaminants. When a component isn’t working or is removed, excessive smog causing pollutants, (nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons, and fine particulate matter) as well as other toxins such as carbon monoxide may be emitted into the atmosphere.

Vehicle owners, including dealers, are responsible for ensuring that their vehicles have the correct emission components and meet Environment Protection Act standards. These standards are not verified at time of a safety inspection and the onus is on the operator and owner for compliance. Vehicles are also originally equipped with emission control information under the hood of the vehicle.

All vehicles must have their original emissions control equipment (or suitable replacements) in place and working. But vehicles do not have to be retrofitted with emissions control equipment, if the motor or motor vehicles were not originally manufactured with them.

Dealerships and vehicle manufacturers can provide information about what equipment should be installed in particular vehicle models.

The Sector Compliance Branch is currently working with the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario on a plain language guide to explain these requirements and address similar questions. Your questions will be valuable in preparing this guide. Once the guide is finalized we intend to make it public through the Association and our own website.

Thank you, again, for taking the time to bring this matter to the attention of the ministry. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact Rick Lalonde at 416-314-4804.

Sincerely,

Andj Dominski
Director
Sector Compliance Branch

I cannot understate the need to get this petition signed and an exemption passed into legislation. Please educate yourself, call your MPP and spread the word. We need to make our elected officials aware by getting as many signaturers as possible. If we cannot get an exemption and they continue to enforce the law as it is currently written our hobby will change forever.

Signed copies of the petition can be dropped off or blank petitions picked up at any Performance Improvements location and many hot rod parts retailers throughout Ontario.

Links to MPPs that are working on our behalf:

Steve Clarke MPP Leads-Grenville. A copy of the petition is available on his web site here: http://www.steveclarkmpp.com/index.cfm?ID=107

John O'Toole MPP Durham Region. http://johnotoolempp.com/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,047 Posts
I'll sign and send today. I don't know if it will count since I live in Quebec but whatever is happening in Ontario will ultimately affect me too so I hope it does.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
625 Posts
Great thread Kurt...I will be taking copies of the petition to the cruise nights in the Toronto area.
This is nothing but a Liberal MONEY grab!:mad::mad::mad::mad:
I understand the fines are significant.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,267 Posts
Why?? Some dumb ars has nothing better to do then try and fix something that doesn't need fixed! If they would look and see how many registered hot rods there are,the percentage is probably very low. How much pollution could this small number of cars be effecting the inviroment? This really irritates me. JUST PLAIN STUPID!!!! RICK
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,392 Posts
Good thing my car is a 72 with a 72 Engine block, but i also have the PVC, charcol canister etc all hooked up still.......:)
Greg, don't forget your heat riser valve, heated air intake, TCS, and fuel/vapour separator. Each missing or non functioning piece is over a $300 fine. They are going by the engine block codes, and in alot of cases, using US data for Canadian built cars, that didn't have the same pollution equipment as their US counterparts until years later. Basically, even they don't know which year had which controls. That unfortunately has not stopped them from handing out as many fines as possible. You need to go to court and prove your innocent.:mad::mad::mad:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
31,194 Posts
Sounds like it may be time to build a 427 Yenko engine for my Nova and remove the L78!

None of this make sense, my 4 door has a factory 350 in it, as soon as I put an LS engine in it it will run cleaner and more efficient, but because they want to do this, I'll rebuild the carbed 350 and pollute! :rolleyes::turn:

What this will do is make all my older dated blocks more valuable. I'm glad my cars are 69's, they have little to no pollution control and funny enough, what they did have, did nothing to offer any actual pollution control!:no:

Maybe it's time for an LS6 Chevelle!:devil:
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,549 Posts
So if the engine number isn`t legible, complete or couldn`t be found then they would have a hard time figuring out what engine is in a car therfore what could they determine which engine it is if it`s a small block first gen. motor. Don`t think there is a law that an engine has to have a year of manufactuer on it but I could be wrong.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
625 Posts
Sounds like it may be time to build a 427 Yenko engine for my Nova and remove the L78!

None of this make sense, my 4 door has a factory 350 in it, as soon as I put an LS engine in it it will run cleaner and more efficient, but because they want to do this, I'll rebuild the carbed 350 and pollute! :rolleyes::turn:

What this will do is make all my older dated blocks more valuable. I'm glad my cars are 69's, they have little to no pollution control and funny enough, what they did have, did nothing to offer any actual pollution control!:no:

Maybe it's time for an LS6 Chevelle!:devil:
Taz,

You and I will have to find and install A.I.R. pumps on our L78's. That is not inexpensive:(:(:(:(

Martin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Update from MOE Website dated 7/26/12

Please Educate Yourself.

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment/en/category/drive_clean/STDPROD_098041.html



Motor replaced post January 1,1999 Requirements

1.Vehicle cannot legally operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period (s. 3(1) and s.6)
2.For Drive Clean testing, the vehicle must meet or exceed what were the emissions standards of the original motor when all original emission control equipment was functioning (s. 4(2)). If there weren’t any standards established for the original motor, the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model. The standards listed for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles apply.
3.All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning. Equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor. (s. 4(2))



(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.


IMO this is why we desperately need an exemption!!!

If they enforce these rules I might as well sell and get out of the hobby all together. This would cost me thousands to comply just because my engine was installed after 1999.
If I drive my car now and get stopped the fines would also be in the thousands!!!

Reminders
The onus is on the hot rod owner to prove when the motor was replaced; otherwise, it will be deemed to have been done after January 1, 1999. An original receipt for the installation/purchase of the replacement motor is an example of proof.

If you can prove the engine was installed before 1999...No Worries3.Catalytic converter and emission control equipment requirements do not apply to hot rods altered prior to January 1, 1999 (s. 4(2)). However, be mindful that without emissions control equipment functioning, the vehicle could fail the Drive Clean test.


Can anyone please write me a reciept pre dating 1999!!!

If you live in Ontario please sign and also print off copies of the petition and take them with you to any events you may attened.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
625 Posts
Just spotted this on the Ministry's Drive Clean web site:

Quote

" Vehicles that have an Ontario Ministry of Transportation-issued “Historic” licence plate are permanently exempt from Drive Clean testing." :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Can't be any clearer than that !..Man are they confused :eek::eek::eek:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
31,194 Posts
Taz,

You and I will have to find and install A.I.R. pumps on our L78's. That is not inexpensive:(:(:(:(

Martin
I'm actually lucky that I have one, but I really don't want to use it, for my driver!:no::(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Just spotted this on the Ministry's Drive Clean web site:

Quote

" Vehicles that have an Ontario Ministry of Transportation-issued “Historic” licence plate are permanently exempt from Drive Clean testing." :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Can't be any clearer than that !..Man are they confused :eek::eek::eek:
Yes your are exempt from bi-yearly Drive Clean Testing BUT Historic plates will not save you from MOE roadside checks. If they stop you they have the right to verify the YOM of the engine. If your engine block is post 1972 and was installed after 1999 (you must prove when it was installed or meet 1980 emission requirements if you cannot) it must meet the emission requirements for the YOM of the engine and not the YOM of the vehicle. They can/will fine you for each missing or non functioning component and possibly pull your plates on the spot until you comply. My 69 has a mid 90's block. I now have to run ALL emission equipment for whatever year it actually is. Cats, pcv,air pump or whatever else it came with in the mid 90s. If I drive my car right now in its Pro Street stance with the engine and exhaust I've invested thousands in I face substantial fines. If we cannot gain a change in the legislation to the YOM of the Vehicle It will be the end of the hobby for me and many many others. I will basically have to start over, spend hundreds if not thousands to comply or sell out of province. Think of how many 30's,40's 50's 60's hot rods are out there in Ontario with post 1972 engine blocks installed after 1999. They will ALL have to now run catalytic, pcv.air pump...etc or be fined. If I ever risk it and go to another car show in Ontario...the hood stays closed. :mad:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,845 Posts
So if the engine number isn`t legible, complete or couldn`t be found then they would have a hard time figuring out what engine is in a car therfore what could they determine which engine it is if it`s a small block first gen. motor. Don`t think there is a law that an engine has to have a year of manufactuer on it but I could be wrong.
Just a wild guess, but...I'd imagine it would be up to you to prove the date information. If it's gone (decked block) or illegible, I'm betting they'd assume the worst. If it was a 2-piece rear main seal, you could argue it back to 1986, but...I doubt they'd just take your word for it being pre-smog.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,392 Posts
could they determine which engine it is if it`s a small block first gen. motor.
Shane, it's kinda like when the property tax assessment person visits your house and wants to come in and see what you got. You say take a hike and they say no problem and leave. Next tax assessment you're flippin' out cause they let their imagination run wild on the assessment cause, you wouldn't let them see. Now you spend alot of time and money trying to set it straight.:eek:
They are using the block pad info to determine the controls that a particular engine requires.

" Vehicles that have an Ontario Ministry of Transportation-issued “Historic” licence plate are permanently exempt from Drive Clean testing."
In Ontario, historic plates can only go on a vehicle that is bone stock and has never ever been altered from it's original state. If a person is using these plates on an altered vehicle, Cha Ching, another big fine!!!!

Just a wild guess, but...I'd imagine it would be up to you to prove the date information. If it's gone (decked block) or illegible, I'm betting they'd assume the worst.
100% correct Pat.:D:D:D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
31,194 Posts
The casting in the block will decode the block in their favor and if it's gone, they will consider it illegal. They always win, you have to beat them at their own game. Time to dig up old castings!:yes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
Mto

Some sad times we are headed here!! Taking all the fun out of Hot Rodding. Almost scared to go to show or cruise nite...Have not seen any of it in or around Kitchener yet, but they say coming to a town near you!!! roid
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,582 Posts
That sucks and the way it is written makes no sense...
BUT.... if everyone put LS engines in there cars and had them tuned the air would be cleaner and your car would run great...:yes:Think about it what "smog" stuff comes on a LS??? PCV valve and some other thing but not much...

Hope you guys get this worked out cause I know this will hurt a lot of good people...
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top