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Discussion Starter #1
I have decided to go with a 496 in my 72 Nova. I have been researching for almost a month now on the build and have hit a wall. There is so much conflicting information out there from one quality builder to another.

I am looking to get into the 700hp range

Have not purchased but leaning heavily towards

-10.5 to 1 eagle forged rotating assembly

-AFR 315 fully cnc'd heads

Still trying to find cam, lifter set-up. Some guys are telling me to go as high as 700 on the lift and others are saying stay around 550.

Please help!
 

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Can you post the flow data on those head. (not just peak flow but in increments from .050" to .700"+).

Engine recipes vary and so do the results. There is no one right answer but there are an infinite number of less than desirable combinations.

You only mentioned WOT peak power. What do you want your power band to look like? Do you drive this on the street? Most street driving is done at less than peak rpm and WOT. If you don't consider the other 90% of your requirements, you'll be unhappy 90% of the time.
 

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550 lift for a 700hp 496, which I assume will be a solid roller? NO!
Im reading smokey yunicks (old) book and he says you dont even get into the real power until .600 lift

looking at the stan weiss flow data on that head,
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy_Big_Block

at .500 lift it will support up 660 hp, 716 at .600, 757hp at .700 lift, so see how much power will be thrown away using a small lift cam

call the cam designer and let them select a cam for you.

now, a real challenge for you will be to build 700hp at 9.25:1 compression, so that you can twin turbo charge it down the road and make 1600 hp :D
 

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The AFR 315 CNC heads are going to do best with higher lift numbers. For a street motor solid roller lifters with .650+ lift will allow you to keep the duration smaller but still move alot of air. As far as lifters if you go solid roller go with one's that are rebuildable, Comp Endura-X or Isky Red Zones. If your going to go with a hydro roller cam your limited to around .600 on the lift and the AFR 315 CNC heads are overkill, you'll probably fall short of your HP goal as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you Paul and following is not directed at you one bit.

Engine recipes is just a weird concept to me! I'm sure I'm wrong but if you don't mind I am going to have a little rant!


There should be a right or wrong but everybody beats around the bush....and nobody gives a straight answer either because they don't know or they haven't tested it. If somebody has tested all the combo's than there should be a "best" combo. We should be able to say a 330 head flowing x needs x duration cam and x intake. Is there a system out there where you can punch in a few components of your build and it will spit out the best combo with those parts? I plan on spending 7-9 grand on this build and I want to make sure I don't waste my money.

Sorry Paul but this has been driving me crazy for sometime now. I just wish I could get a straight answer from someone who has built one and has a proven build.

This will be primarily a street car but will only be driven a few times a month. I want to be pretty aggresive with the motor considering my other car is putting down 700hp to the ground. I drive my Viper all the time and have gotten used to the power. I don't what my Nova to be significantly slower because I know I won't want to drive it.

It seems to me that if I can make 700plus hp than the torque curve will stay about 600 the entire time which would be good. I know running a flat tappet cam will give me more hp but don't want to deal with adjusting the lash every month. Probably run a holley hp carb for driveability.

AFR flow numbers
.200........169.0..
.300........249.0..
.400........312.0..
.500........353.0..
.600........380.0................
.700........387.0.


Comp cam recommended a 254/260 @50 with 112 lobe installed to 110. 575lift

What say you?
 

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700hp can be hit with ease if the right combination is used in conjunction with the right machining and assembly practices.:yes:

For a MAX effort build, I'd look long and hard at the Dart and AFR fully CNC'd 335's.:yes: That big of a motor will definitely utilize them!! Intake porting will be a MUST!!!

Little things like a thinner-medium tension ring package and oil pan design will come into play.

At 700hp, the power curve will most likely be a little "Peaky" and have a bit of a narrower torque curve. Unless you intend on utilizing a 4800+ converter and a lot of gear, I'd shoot more for the 650-660 range with a torque curve so flat you could shoot pool on it.:D Then a little squirt of the funny stuff would put you over 800hp and probably 900lb/ft when you wanted it.:devil::yes: but overall, driving it would be a lot more fun and probably quite a bit easier on parts.

Just a thought....
 

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Thank you Paul and following is not directed at you one bit.

Engine recipes is just a weird concept to me! I'm sure I'm wrong but if you don't mind I am going to have a little rant!


There should be a right or wrong but everybody beats around the bush....and nobody gives a straight answer either because they don't know or they haven't tested it. If somebody has tested all the combo's than there should be a "best" combo. We should be able to say a 330 head flowing x needs x duration cam and x intake. Is there a system out there where you can punch in a few components of your build and it will spit out the best combo with those parts? I plan on spending 7-9 grand on this build and I want to make sure I don't waste my money.

Sorry Paul but this has been driving me crazy for sometime now. I just wish I could get a straight answer from someone who has built one and has a proven build.

This will be primarily a street car but will only be driven a few times a month. I want to be pretty aggresive with the motor considering my other car is putting down 700hp to the ground. I drive my Viper all the time and have gotten used to the power. I don't what my Nova to be significantly slower because I know I won't want to drive it.

It seems to me that if I can make 700plus hp than the torque curve will stay about 600 the entire time which would be good. I know running a flat tappet cam will give me more hp but don't want to deal with adjusting the lash every month. Probably run a holley hp carb for driveability.

AFR flow numbers
.200........169.0..
.300........249.0..
.400........312.0..
.500........353.0..
.600........380.0................
.700........387.0.


Comp cam recommended a 254/260 @50 with 112 lobe installed to 110. 575lift

What say you?
BEST combination for what application. Everyone seems to have a different idea on where the HP and torque peaks should be.
With all of the different cam grinds and cylinder heads available to us today it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to test ALL of the possible combinations..:yes:

On this type of build, a mechanical cam will be a MUST:yes: and to get into the upper RPM range needed to make the HP you want will most likely require a roller. BBC's have HEAVY valves and it takes some pretty stiff valve springs to keep them under control. That much spring pressure will kill a flat tappet in no time and make it HARD to run any kind of hydraulic roller. It's a battle the off-shore power boat guys struggle with all the time.:yes:

Don't be scared of the whole rumor of having to set your valves all the time.:rolleyes: If the valvetrain is set up RIGHT and with quality parts, the lash SHOULDN'T change :no: unless a poly-lock comes loose. If it does then you need to take a closer look to see what's going away to allow for more clearance!!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The AFR 315 CNC heads are going to do best with higher lift numbers. For a street motor solid roller lifters with .650+ lift will allow you to keep the duration smaller but still move alot of air. As far as lifters if you go solid roller go with one's that are rebuildable, Comp Endura-X or Isky Red Zones. If your going to go with a hydro roller cam your limited to around .600 on the lift and the AFR 315 CNC heads are overkill, you'll probably fall short of your HP goal as well.
Thanks for the input.

So basically I need .650lift and solid roller to make the power I want? I have already emailed Isky about a cam and lifter recommendation. What duration do you think I will need?

Some guys are telling me a 650 lift cam is not "streetable". Are they just ****in retarted!

I was told that supercharging my Viper would make it not steetable because of the power and honestly I almost didn't do it! Now that I drive it all the time that it the dumbest comment I have ever heard!

I won't mind having an engine that barely idles but I think that is cool as **** and I am running a 5 speed. As long as it can idle at 1000rpm I will be fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
BEST combination for what application. Everyone seems to have a different idea on where the HP and torque peaks should be.
With all of the different cam grinds and cylinder heads available to us today it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to test ALL of the possible combinations..:yes:

On this type of build, a mechanical cam will be a MUST:yes: and to get into the upper RPM range needed to make the HP you want will most likely require a roller. BBC's have HEAVY valves and it takes some pretty stiff valve springs to keep them under control. That much spring pressure will kill a flat tappet in no time and make it HARD to run any kind of hydraulic roller. It's a battle the off-shore power boat guys struggle with all the time.:yes:

Don't be scared of the whole rumor of having to set your valves all the time.:rolleyes: If the valvetrain is set up RIGHT and with quality parts, the lash SHOULDN'T change :no: unless a poly-lock comes loose. If it does then you need to take a closer look to see what's going away to allow for more clearance!!
Awesome input!

I am going to have my build done by the end of this thread!

496 stroker 10.2 - 10.5 comprssion

eagle forged crank/ h-beam rods/srp or mahle forged pistons

Afr 315 cnc'd assembled heads

Isky mechanical roller cam - specs?

Isky redline lifters - solid? roller?

Valve spring? 1.7 rocker ratio?

Super Victory - single plane intake

mallory ignition

950hp holley carb

2 1/8 primary hooker headers with 18in collector extentions

Are we getting closer?
 

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Awesome input!

I am going to have my build done by the end of this thread!

496 stroker 10.2 - 10.5 comprssion

eagle forged crank/ h-beam rods/srp forged pistons

Afr 315 cnc'd assembled heads

Isky mechanical roller cam - specs?

Isky redline lifters - solid? roller?

Valve spring? 1.7 rocker ratio?

Victory Jr single plane intake

msd ignition

950hp holley carb

2 1/8 primary hooker headers with 18in collector extentions

Are we getting closer?
Looking better.:yes: I like the Isky Red Zone lifters.:yes:
As for the cam, I'd suggest giving Harold Brookshire a call. He WAS Mr. Ultradyne and has most recently been designing all of the VooDoo line of cams for Lunati along with a lot of the latest ProStock stuff.:yes: His # is 662-562-4933

There's a LOT of the cam companies that are still surviving on 20 yr old lobe designs!! Harold's got the latest stuff.:yes:

You could also look at CNC Motorsports and ADPerformance for the stroker kit. Both of them can put together the rotating assy with either Probe or Mahle pistons and the thinner ring packs.....and cheaper than most!!!:yes:

Look at the Super Victor and Team "G" intakes as well. The Vic Jr. might be a little on the small side to match up with the heads all that well. Give Tony Mamo @ AFR and see what intake he suggests for use with his heads.:yes: He ought to know best!! He could also give you an idea as to what cam specs you should be looking for before you call Harold and see what he can grind up for ya...

There's been a LOT of hurt feelings with the MSD stuff.:yes:
Look at the Mallory offerings. For ease of installation and ultimate life expectancy the magnetic pick-up style distributor is the only way to go. Summit also has some ignition packages worth looking at.
 

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The perception of lift with a big block.

With correct springs and quality parts a .700 lift roller cam is nothing for street use today.

And a .550 lift cam is small for a BBC. (IMO)

I have .640 lift roller in my street car. SBC


AFR heads specs are very true, and a quality head.

A .700 lift roller cam is very very street able!

And will make some power!

This is the cam I am going to use in my 496,
I have 2 NIB in the box right now!
Herbert Roller
305/310Duration @ .050: 269/277Lift: .698/.700Lobe Center: 110c

the cam comes in a 108c/112c we found the 108c is not happy with low end, the 112 is lazy and NOS dependent
the 110c made us happy!:yes:

We purchased 4 together with the special center line.
1 is in a 468 68 Camaro and it runs 6.40 all day long on HP!
Also put into a 502 crate engine in a Chevelle, if he could ever hook it up it would be a monster! It's a street car. A pure tire burner!



In my small block I had a .600 lift to start. Was happy.
Cam failed, and I changed to a .550 lift cam with less duration because "THEY" said it was to big. End result, I was not happy. So I changed rocker arm ratios to get more lift and this also increased duration a few numbers.
Now I am at a .640 lift roller and car made more power.
The AFR small block 210cc heads flow numbers greatly increase at high lift.


Some say, what about street driving, you have to ask yourself what is more important?
If street driving for mileage and cruising Put Put is most important then a small cam is for you, but don't look for big HP numbers. It's not going to happen!

As always "IMO!"
I AM PART OF THE "THEY" CROWD!

AL
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Looking better.:yes: I like the Isky Red Zone lifters.:yes:
As for the cam, I'd suggest giving Harold Brookshire a call. He WAS Mr. Ultradyne and has most recently been designing all of the VooDoo line of cams for Lunati along with a lot of the latest ProStock stuff.:yes: His # is 662-562-4933

There's a LOT of the cam companies that are still surviving on 20 yr old lobe designs!! Harold's got the latest stuff.:yes:

You could also look at CNC Motorsports and ADPerformance for the stroker kit. Both of them can put together the rotating assy with either Probe or Mahle pistons and the thinner ring packs.....and cheaper than most!!!:yes:

Look at the Super Victor and Team "G" intakes as well. The Vic Jr. might be a little on the small side to match up with the heads all that well. Give Tony Mamo @ AFR and see what intake he suggests for use with his heads.:yes: He ought to know best!! He could also give you an idea as to what cam specs you should be looking for before you call Harold and see what he can grind up for ya...

There's been a LOT of hurt feelings with the MSD stuff.:yes:
Look at the Mallory offerings. For ease of installation and ultimate life expectancy the magnetic pick-up style distributor is the only way to go. Summit also has some ignition packages worth looking at.

It my searching I ran across AD Performance and I will be getting my rotating assembly from them. I also had a Mallory ignition in my small block for years without any problem so that is probably a switch.

When I first started thinking about the motor I talked to Tony at AFR and he recommended a builder for my engine and a few components. I told him the power I wanted to make and he was talking about 11 to 1 compression with a 700plus lift cam. (on pump gas) Other forum discussions and builders said that was crazy to do! I just don't know!

Upon talking to that builder (Tony recommended) he was in the 13-15k range which is just a,little more than I want to spend. He was recommending top of the line everything!

I email and called Tony again for a less wild set-up and I havent heard from him yet.


It seems that every part or manufacturer has good and bad things about it. I have had multiple guys tell me Eagle is crap yet Shafiroff uses all Eagle. It's not a drag engine and it won't be launched at 4k rpms from a stop. I don't need a Callie's Dragonslayer crank for a 700hp engine......YES it's better but do really need it?

Editing build post
 

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It my searching I ran across AD Performance and I will be getting my rotating assembly from them. I also had a Mallory ignition in my small block for years without any problem so that is probably a switch.

When I first started thinking about the motor I talked to Tony at AFR and he recommended a builder for my engine and a few components. I told him the power I wanted to make and he was talking about 11 to 1 compression with a 700plus lift cam. (on pump gas) Other forum discussions and builders said that was crazy to do! I just don't know!

Upon talking to that builder (Tony recommended) he was in the 13-15k range which is just a,little more than I want to spend. He was recommending top of the line everything!

I email and called Tony again for a less wild set-up and I havent heard from him yet.


It seems that every part or manufacturer has good and bad things about it. I have had multiple guys tell me Eagle is crap yet Shafiroff uses all Eagle. It's not a drag engine and it won't be launched at 4k rpms from a stop. I don't need a Callie's Dragonslayer crank for a 700hp engine......YES it's better but do really need it?

Editing build post
Yeah, you'll get a lot of that.:rolleyes: It's just part of it.
You're correct, a killer Callies, Crower, LA Ent, Lunati, Cola (if you can find one), or Howards forged, scalloped, lightened, custom crank with narrowed journals for the matching custom billet rods would be nice.....:yes: but they're absolutely overkill.:D There's NOTHING wrong with the Eagle and Scat stuff. Just have your machine shop check it (which they should anyway).. There are some imported cranks and rods to beware of (RPM and Ohio) but they aren't in the same league as Scat and Eagle. Still decent stuff, just known to have a few more QC issues.

99% of the manufacturers have their junk as well as their jewels. That's just a matter of being careful.

11:1 isn't too much for a pump gas BBC but the tune will be VERY picky!!! 10.5:1 will cost you a few ponies but will make you a lot happier in the end. :yes:

Like Al said, .700" lift really isn't that big of a deal anymore, just make sure you get GOOD valve springs and PUSHRODS....they always seem to be an afterthought for everyone.:yes: Give Smith Brothers a shout for some killer pushrods. http://www.pushrods.net/onepiece.html Their 3/8 x .120 wall pushrods are actually VERY close in price to a lot of people's standard 3/8 x .080 stuff!! Even though in your case I'd go with the 7/16 x .120" wall..:yes:

Brian over at AD Performance is GREAT to deal with!!! He's also another great source for info.:yes: One of his builds did place in the EMC (Engine Masters Challenge) so he's got a little experience to draw from.

Harold will also be able to spill the beans on a few things!!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah, you'll get a lot of that.:rolleyes: It's just part of it.
You're correct, a killer Callies, Crower, LA Ent, Lunati, Cola (if you can find one), or Howards forged, scalloped, lightened, custom crank with narrowed journals for the matching custom billet rods would be nice.....:yes: but they're absolutely overkill.:D There's NOTHING wrong with the Eagle and Scat stuff. Just have your machine shop check it (which they should anyway).. There are some imported cranks and rods to beware of (RPM and Ohio) but they aren't in the same league as Scat and Eagle. Still decent stuff, just known to have a few more QC issues.

99% of the manufacturers have their junk as well as their jewels. That's just a matter of being careful.

11:1 isn't too much for a pump gas BBC but the tune will be VERY picky!!! 10.5:1 will cost you a few ponies but will make you a lot happier in the end. :yes:

Like Al said, .700" lift really isn't that big of a deal anymore, just make sure you get GOOD valve springs and PUSHRODS....they always seem to be an afterthought for everyone.:yes: Give Smith Brothers a shout for some killer pushrods. http://www.pushrods.net/onepiece.html Their 3/8 x .120 wall pushrods are actually VERY close in price to a lot of people's standard 3/8 x .080 stuff!! Even though in your case I'd go with the 7/16 x .120" wall..:yes:

Brian over at AD Performance is GREAT to deal with!!! He's also another great source for info.:yes: One of his builds did place in the EMC (Engine Masters Challenge) so he's got a little experience to draw from.

Harold will also be able to spill the beans on a few things!!
THanks D-man.

I will stick to the 10.5 to 1 just to be safe

I will call Smith Brothers on those pushrods once I know the length. The AFR heads are assembled and come with springs for up a .750 lift. I would image these would suffice?

If I shoot for a high 600 lift cam what kind of duration should be looking for? or lobe sep?

I wish it wasn't Saturday so I could talk to some other these guys!

$900 for the Isky Red Zone lifters!! Are they a must? Description says great for high hp drag racing and high rmp endro racing.......My engine might see redline twice a year
 

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Awesome input!

I am going to have my build done by the end of this thread!

496 stroker 10.2 - 10.5 comprssion

eagle forged crank/ h-beam rods/srp or mahle forged pistons

Afr 315 cnc'd assembled heads

Isky mechanical roller cam - specs?

Isky redline lifters - solid? roller?

Valve spring? 1.7 rocker ratio?

Super Victory - single plane intake

mallory ignition

950hp holley carb

2 1/8 primary hooker headers with 18in collector extentions

Are we getting closer?
IMO looks like your right on track. I'd go with a 700 lift roller too. I had one I just sold to a buddy whos going to do a similar build but a 468 instead of a 496.

As far as lifters go remember solid roller lifters need oil splash for lubrication. I think the enduro lifters have the oil feed hole or slot machined in them. The lifters get very little if any lube from idle to 3,500 RPM. That's why people say solid rollers won't last.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
OK. Just got off the phone with Cole over at Comp Cams

He recommends there solid roller Extreme Energy cam 11-773-8

Its a .660/.666 lift with [email protected] duration. Said we could go bigger on the duration (266-275 or so) but might run into driveablity issues. He also told me I would have to check/adjust the last every 500-1000miles.....which is fine if thats the case.
 

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If your going to use a off the shelf cam from Comp, Lunati, etc then alot of the engine design will be left to you. There tech's can only help so much, not knocking them but there is a reason there working as a phone tech and not a engine or cam designer. If you go with a custom grind your end up with something that is designed to work around what you have.

BTW I would use 1.8 rockers with the 11-773-8 giving you .698/.705 lift.
 
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