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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,
I'm really new here and only owned my 1965 Nova for 10 days now.
Long Story......:sleep:
The car appeared to need an ignition switch. The key turn loosey-goosey and when I turn the key to "start" the car cranks but it didn't start until I turn it back to "on". It took me many tries and the starter gear and flywheel were gonna take a beating.
Immediaately started looking for a new switch. Couldn't find the right one. Everywhere I tried said the part was a one year only and discontinued. I settled for a 62-64 part and against my desire not to jerry-rig things, it had to clip off the harness connector and use insulated push-on connectors. Tight working up there. I'm not as flexible as I once was and the car has an aftermarket stereo and a triple gauge set in the way. After I was done, the car started easier but somethings not right. Well, though the car starts much better, it still doesn't actually start until the key is turned back to "on".
I found schematics on this site. Thankyou Steve's Nova members.
The Question..... :confused:
I'm not an electrical wizard so can some verify something for me.
The schematic shows the "on" (ign 1, BLK/PNK) in the dash harness, pass through a multi connector to the firewall harness, changes color to WHT-ORG-PUR resistor wire to a post on the starter solenoid. (but this isn't the sol lead, that (purple)comes from the switch to another connection here). Another BLK/PUR is connected to the same post as the WHT-ORG-PUR and that goes to the plus of the ignition coil. It appears, power to the coil comes from the starter (relay) while cranking. Something here must be missing or broken, assuming the starter relay is good. I'm guessing it is because the motor and transmission has less than 3 thousand miles on it.
Thanks in advance if you can verify or correct my schematic reading ability.
KDee
 

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still have points distributor?

The original points distributor should receive full 12 volts to the coil during cranking.

In the on position it should receive 5-7 volts to the coil through the resister wire. ( from 62 shop manual)

Sounds like you are not getting the 12 volts during cranking.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your 65

EarlyIIs
 

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The original points distributor should receive full 12 volts to the coil during cranking.

In the on position it should receive 5-7 volts to the coil through the resister wire.

Sounds like you are not getting the 12 volts during cranking.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your 65

EarlyIIs
If you still have a points distributor:

The 12 volt wire comes from the starter solenoid to the positive side of the coil. There should be two small terminals with one wire each on the solenoid. Make sure it is still connected. The other small wire comes from the ignition switch. Some solenoids only have the ignition connection. The coil connections went away with HEI ignitions.

The coil runs on 9 volts and starts on 12.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm doing a lot of searching before changing anything

OK guys,
Thanks, so far, but. :(:
Looks like this is a little more complex than first thought.
Starting with the 65 wiring diagram, all would be fine if all was still from a 65. I have a HEI distributor. Best I can tell is it is one of those $ 99 no-name jobs from an E-bay vendor. That means the coil is integrated in the cap, RIGHT?
I am also guessing that the 355 small block w/ the TH350 has a newer type starter. I am reading around the net about R and S connections on the solenoid. Don't see that on the 65 diagram. Haven't looked to verify yet, will do tomorrow. I also read that I shouldn't use the resistor wires in the 65 harness with the HEI. I could fry something. Maybe it's a good thing I'm moving slow. If I rewired the start position of the ignition back to the 65 diagram, I might have fried the harness. Some dude wiring a 59 Impala on another site asked similar questions on an year old thread somewhere else. The responder, who seemed to know stuff, said that 65 and earlier harnesses have old PVC insulation and can't take the heat. If you make a mistake and one wire fries, they usually all go, so he said.
Once I verify which stater type is there, I'll probably be looking for more advice.
Crash course in auto ignition systems in progress..........:geek:
KDee
 

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With an HEI you do not need the 12v jump wire from the starter to the distributer. If the starter is cranking you are probably wired OK.

The HEI does NOT need a resister wire like the old points type did. It runs 12v all the time. Just the wire directly to the HEI from the firewall. They can still run if a resister wire, but better to replace it.

If during starting the voltage drops too low, you may not get a good spark while starting.

First check batter cables. Make sure no corrosion and a good connection.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Man

Val is your name right?
I did a little checking today.
Removed the battery ground from the battery - post.
Pulled the Batt and Tach wires from the HEI.
Clamped the ground probe of my voltmeter to the battery empty battery - post.
I was going to check the HEI tabs and the starter tabs by watching the voltmeter through the windshield as I turned the key to all positions.
Well, didn't get too far.
As soon as I plugged the probe into the connector of the wire that was pulled from the Batt tab of the distributor, I got 12v. The tab does say Batt. I was surprised though. I figured that ment a keyed hot, not the battery direct. That means there is juice to the HEI ditributor all the time.
IS THAT CORRECT?
Anyway, if it is correct, now I'm really confused. If the ignition is always hot, it shouldn't be doing what it's doing. The only thing that could be going on is the volts drop on that line when the starter is engaged. Haven't checked that yet. I want to hook up a jumper for the voltmeter probe and be a little more careful with everything hot.
This is self-edge-amacation...

KDee

If from your site you are what I think. Yah want to get a laugh. Go to my new site made with some fancy tool earthing provides for free web pages and look how much code it took to make a web page that should take about 30 lines. I had to drop my own code into a text input box in the tool to get about what I wanted.
http://home.earthlink.net/~kevdebin/oldgold/
 

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I've had this problem before and after swapping two new ignition switches I determined that somewhere along the current run from the ignition switch to the coil (HEI) I had a voltage drop thru the fuse box. I bypassed the fuse box with inline fusible link and wired directly from the ignition switch to the coil. Problem solved, starts every time with a blip of the key and been tip top ever since -

GG
 

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What the last guy said.. it can't be hot all the time.

It sounds like you are loosing voltage during crank.

How is the HEI wired? If it is the stock wire to the distributor, then that ain't good enough. On my 76 I took a 10AWG wire straight from the fusebox to the distributor.

If I read your post correclty, you didn't make any checks past finding the wire was hot. You need to take a voltage reading from the distributor to the engine ( the dist grounds through the block ) during crank and see what you get.

If the voltage is low, (during crank) then make another quick measurement... between the engine block and the battery ( - ) ground during crank. This one should ALWAYS be ZERO. Any voltage between block and battery ( - ) indicates a bad ground wire.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
HEI power source

Hi guys,
Found the spot where the HEI gets it's power. Don't know if you can see this picture (please let me know one way or the other) but it's a screw terminal connector jambed into the fuse holder of the heater fuse with the fuse.

http://home.earthlink.net/~kevdebin/pictures/

There are a lot more of the same type wire added up under the dash for various add on stuff, gages, sterio, etc.
I drove this car over 350 miles to get it home when I bought it. If that wire came out, I'd still be on the side of I75 somewhere.
I'm going to buy a few feet of wire tomorrow, different colors. Sure I won't find Black w/Pink stripe but at least I won't add another red or green.
KDee
 

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Website doesn't like the capitals in FuseBlock.jpg.

If you can find the original ignition wire, or whats left.... Trace it back to the firewall connector.

Undo the connector and rewire the ignition pin. When I changed mine I carefully took the pin out of the connector. Small screwdriver or pin may be needed to push a spring clip keeper down so pin will come out. Then I carefully took the old resister wire out of the pin. Added and soldered the new wire in the pin for the HEI. Then re-assembled the firewall connector making sure the keeper snapped in and held it. Plugged it back in and I had direct 12 Volt for the HEI. Don't loose or destroy that pin!

This is best to assure you have voltage when cranking. No fuses etc.

In start mode, some of the auxiliary stuff may not be energized. I never tested it out on my 66. Right now mine is apart for brake fixes or I would test it. That could be your primary problem
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Have to post pages

I just tried to look at a pic file onlyon my site picture libray and couldn't. Used to work with my old ISP but it looks like earthlink will not display picture formats, jpg, gif, etc. I guess that prevents people from linking to pics on member pages and saves tons of bandwidth. So, I made another page with the fuseblock pic on it.
I'm guessing the lead is always hot, because, I've just noticed that many things are switch on the ground side, not the power side. This seems to be done for things like headlights when you don't want them to work only when the key is on. This goes against all house wiring codes, but, this aint a house. Kinda threw me for a while.
I believe that the starter to coil wire still needs to be reconnected. All the diagrams show it in one form or another. The common connection point is either on the starter or the coil terminal. Just cause the coil to distributor wires are gone (they're still internal to the HEI, right), you still need the 12v power to route through the switch inside the starter solenoid (sneaky little diagram detail) when the key is in the start position as 12volts is absent momentarily from the ignition run position while cranking.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sucess

Website doesn't like the capitals in FuseBlock.jpg.

If you can find the original ignition wire, or whats left.... Trace it back to the firewall connector.

Undo the connector and rewire the ignition pin. When I changed mine I carefully took the pin out of the connector. Small screwdriver or pin may be needed to push a spring clip keeper down so pin will come out. Then I carefully took the old resister wire out of the pin. Added and soldered the new wire in the pin for the HEI. Then re-assembled the firewall connector making sure the keeper snapped in and held it. Plugged it back in and I had direct 12 Volt for the HEI. Don't loose or destroy that pin!

This is best to assure you have voltage when cranking. No fuses etc.

In start mode, some of the auxiliary stuff may not be energized. I never tested it out on my 66. Right now mine is apart for brake fixes or I would test it. That could be your primary problem
Sucess. Guess I should thank everyone who threw in their 2 cents too. Salvaging the original wiring was not an option. There's even single push ons for the harness connection to the igntion switch cause you can't get the 65 only switch anymore. The pattern of the tabs is different than 62-64 and 66-67. Anyway trashed the micky mouse tap to the fuse. Doubled up on the Black/Pink IGN 1 at the switch. ran the new wire to the BAT tab on The HEI, however, doubled wire on that connector too. Ran the second one down to the starter and put one of those 5/8" dia ring terminal connectors on it and connected it to the big output terminal. I also put an in-line fuse in that line. Crossed my fingers but it works like a champ. Did get a little scare though. Forgot that between all the messing around with the wiring I touched up the headers with 1800 degree manifold gray anmd had not started the car yet. Smoke, smell..... Got half way the fire extigusher before I realized it was the paint, not the wire harness.
Thanks again everyone....
KDee
 
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