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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well, I wasnt going to waste you guys precious time because I knew I could figure this out, but after reading this article, I think I need some advice.


1.) My instrument cluster is removed ( I doubt that would cause no start )


2.) My ignigtion cylinder was showing signs of wear for the past few months. It would turn but not engage. It was like it was in "neutral" I would turn it back in the off position, push in, and turn and the switch would actuate.

3.) The car started fine with the key switch, with the instrument cluster removed.

4.) New Summit headers were installed, the car ran numerous times. I got some clotth heat shielding for the wires that go to the starter near the headers. the plastic shielding around the wires from the compartment panel were melting a little, but no wires were burned....I quadruple checked.

5.) yester day, I started it with the key, then after running for a few minutes with the new headers, the key all of a sudden does nothing.

6.) The car starts right up fine with a remote starter switch...( this baffles me because the key switch needs to be in the run position )


7.) i googeled chevy starter systems this morning, and got an article about HOT-NO START on chevyhiperformance how headers cause too much resistance and mess up starter systems.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0312_chevrolet_no_start_fix/index.html

Could this be my problem? I can try and start the car before I go home again....does the problem go away when the car cools down? I was using my repair manual and was going to replace the neutral safety switch, starter switch and ignition lock cylinder.....UGH...fix one thing, and something else breaks :rolleyes:
 

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sorry if it seems like Im thread jacking but I've seen guys wire up the solenoid with a trunk mounted battery run the cable to the B term on the solenoid and then run the cable from the A term on the solenoid down to the starter or vise versa. Run the start wire to the S term on the solenoid and then use a short jumper wire from the battery term on the starter to the S term on the starter. Is that the same thing as running a wire from the B term on the solenoid down to the S term on the starter? would that way cause the starter to not disengage properly on start up?



OOOOPS answered my own question reading the chevy hiperformance article. Thats how MAD electrical does it.
 

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I hate to rain on this perfect solution...

but...

if a jumper switch starts the car ( when hot ) then the solenoid heat soak is not the solution.

The solenoid is what is getting hot, not the entire wiring harness. SO.. if a jumper wire makes the solenoid fire, then I really doubt the solution lies in relocating the soleniod.

unless the real problem is a poor connection at the solenoid, which heat will of course exasperate. Then you would fix the problem by sheer luck.

Try taking the wires off the solenoid, cleaning them with lacquer thinner, and reattatching them. While you have the wires off, take a close look at the terminals. ( spade connectors or ring terminals ) They may need to be replaced.
 

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I hate to rain on this perfect solution...

but...

if a jumper switch starts the car ( when hot ) then the solenoid heat soak is not the solution.
You aren't understanding the problem and the solution:

Headers are a great addition to any V8 Chevrolet but they also generate large amounts of heat in the engine compartment. One component that is specifically affected by this heat is the stock GM starter solenoid. Because of its location on the starter, it is very close to the headers. The heat can cause problems starting your car. Most of the time all you need to do is wait and let the solenoid cool down and the problem goes away. However, this can be annoying and embarrassing and in the long run will kill the solenoid altogether.

While starter heat shields help the problem, they don't solve it. The best solution to the problem is to relocate the starter solenoid to some other location under the hood, away from the heat of your exhaust system. You obviously can't move the stock solenoid from a GM starter but you can use a separate, remote solenoid like on a Ford, to control the GM solenoid. Here's how and why it works: On the GM solenoid, the winding is fed through a resistive lead to the starter from the switch key, which results in less than the 12 volts being applied across the solenoid winding. As the current in the lead increase so does the voltage drop on the lead going to the GM solenoid winding, resulting in less voltage at the solenoid winding, giving less than satisfactory operation. So, the bottom line is, when the unit gets hot, it draws more current in the lead from the switch to the solenoid winding resulting in less voltage across the solenoid activation coil. So the solenoid does not close the contact to the starter motor nor does it engage the pinion gear. The Ford solenoid, when installed, solves this problem by applying the full battery voltage across the GM solenoid activation winding, resulting in positive operation of the solenoid, pinion gear and rotation of the starter motor.
The problem is less than 12v being sent to the solenoid on the starter. That's not a problem when the solenoid is cool but it is when it's hot. The solution is to send a full 12v to the solenoid on the starter. A Ford solenoid doesn't replace the original solenoid it just makes sure a full 12v is supplied to it. However, you don't need a Ford solenoid to do this. A regular heavy duty relay will accomplish the same thing:

 

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It actually sounds like I have a better grasp on the nuances of the problem than do you. And you actually made my point for me: To wit...

Your relay solution leaves the solenoid in place, and replaces the resistive wire feeding it; which is exactly what I said: "if a jumper wire makes the solenoid fire, then I really doubt the solution lies in relocating the soleniod."

Also, here is a tidbit I gleaned from my three-year electronics technology course ( which I finished in two years with a 4.0 GPA ). Copper wire has a POSITIVE THERMAL COEFICIENT which means as it gets hotter, it increases resistance.

In a DC coil, this will cause LESS amps draw, not more. AMPS is what causes a DC coil to generate flux ( magnetism ). As the coil resistance increases, the total circuit resistance increases, and less current will flow.

Now, inversely, if the coil were to drop resistance, ( as you imply ) then total circuit resistance would also drop, and MORE amps will flow. The coil does actually not care how many volts it gets, it needs AMPS, and in a series circuit each component enjoys the exact same amps regardless of voltage drop.

You may very well debate this point.. it is a common misconception that solenoids operate on voltage, but they do indeed operate on CURRENT. to Wit: I'll quote a section from my old text.

" An inductor stores energy in the magnetic field created by the current. The energy stored is expressed as follows:

W=1/2LI^2

As you can see, the energy stored is proportional to the inductance and the square of the current. When I is in amperes, and L is in heneries, the energy is in joules."
 

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I had a similar problem with my 64 when I put my small block in it I wouldn'dt start sometimes. Long story short the neutral safety switch had too much resistance and the wire from the bulkhead to the starter was too thin and all dry and brittle. Replaced them one by one to finally cure the problem. Car would start up fine hot.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
figured it out

I had a bad connection in my key switch wire to the starter. it was spliced and the solderless connection broke
 

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Hi Scott.

Another hi-jack but related question. Is there anything different with HEI dist that I need to know?

Thanks.
 

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yes, the HEI needs more AMPS.

Replace all the wire feeding it, all the way to the fuse box, and use 12AWG or 10 AWG. Or, put it on a separate power relay, again, 12 AWG minimum
 

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It actually sounds like I have a better grasp on the nuances of the problem than do you.
I doubt it. The solenoid can't be removed from the starter so unless you are someone else builds a Chevy starter without one, the solution I suggested is the best fix to the problem. And since it's worked for me for over 17 years and thousands of other people, I'd say it's a very good solution.
 
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