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high comp NA vs low comp turbo

  • 12:1 race gas, big cam NA \m/

    Votes: 7 38.9%
  • 9.5:1 pump gas, tiny cam and TURBOS \m/

    Votes: 11 61.1%
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Discussion Starter #1
ok, guys here are the choices

12:1 496,
forged rotating assembly,
open chamber iron head.(049 or 781)
will run at least some if not all race gas
260s at 50 solid flat tappet cam

OR

9.5:1 496,
forged rotating assembly
semi closed chamber head with stock valves
pump gas
236/242 at 50 solid flat tappet cam
with the option later to add turbos

present goal is only 11.5 but that will certainly fall in time

should I go with the stocker cam low compression torque monster, or with a rough idle race gas beast?
 

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Why not do 11:1 comp on an N/a with a custom roller cam that way you can have the cam you want, not have to worry about a turbo, and still should be able to run on pump gas
 

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Why not E85 and run 12:1 all day long for cheap?
Not too practical on my side of the world--only a few stations have it in the L.A. area. For a race only application it could be put in containers like race gas, but if you have to drive 27 miles to get it...............I'll stick with 91.
 

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u know me Cyan, go turbo & choose ur power level, up to what ur block can hold of course.....JMO!!!!! what are ya tryin to do anyways, just curious...???

LIL JOHN
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Why not a pump gas 12-1 small block that runs mid 10's?
I thought about it, but having to buy new everything would more than likely end up bieing more expensive. heads, headers, intake , block.

I already have it all with the current engine so I would just need a new rotating assembly and possibly heads
 

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Discussion Starter #8
u know me Cyan, go turbo & choose ur power level, up to what ur block can hold of course.....JMO!!!!! what are ya tryin to do anyways, just curious...???

LIL JOHN
well, its always a street car, but after putting the 468 in and living with all the noise and heat, it just does not make sense to have a hot, loud, rackety car that is slow. so I need to be at least in the 11s if Im gonna live with all that racket.
 

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It's much easier to build something either for the street or to race, not both. IMO building a race car engine that is never going to be raced doesn't seem to make a lot of sense and likewise a street engine and try to take it racing. I've tried it a couple of times over the years and finally realized it's really not very practical. Anything that's 400-600 hp on the street is more than enough to get you into trouble, so anything more than that is jus for bragging rights since there's no place to use it. There's a lot more to it than just the engine component as well for a high horsepower combination.

BUT...people will do what they want to fill their dreams and empty their wallets, that's what makes the world go round. Do whatever makes you happy, that's the most important thing.
 

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Why not E85 and run 12:1 all day long for cheap?
That's what I did with my 496 and I absolutely LOVE the stuff!!!!
Have about a 15 mile drive to get it but I have a plastic 55 gal drum and 2-3, 6 gal jugs and that lasts me more than a month or so.
$1.89 a gal compared to $6-8 for race gas. My car runs sooooooo much smoother at idle and lower RPM's. The plugs are so clean it's kinda hard to read them. Will never go back to gas in anything high performance.
If you go to e85forum.com there's a link to a E-85 station locater.

Jim
 

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It's much easier to build something either for the street or to race, not both. IMO building a race car engine that is never going to be raced doesn't seem to make a lot of sense and likewise a street engine and try to take it racing. I've tried it a couple of times over the years and finally realized it's really not very practical. Anything that's 400-600 hp on the street is more than enough to get you into trouble, so anything more than that is jus for bragging rights since there's no place to use it. There's a lot more to it than just the engine component as well for a high horsepower combination.

BUT...people will do what they want to fill their dreams and empty their wallets, that's what makes the world go round. Do whatever makes you happy, that's the most important thing.
Mike is right and all the money he put into his engine it wasn't even 600hp if I remember correctly however it was built to be solid and very reliable with plenty of hp for the street but even to still be driven on the street. For everything you do to the engine you have to do to the car. The bigger the hp, the more you need to beef up the chassis, rear end, tranny, and it just keeps on going. Forced induction is awesome but any decent built big block will have more hp and tq than you could ever use on the street. Alot of cases people build such high hp they are little fun driving on the street or they lack reliability
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It's much easier to build something either for the street or to race, not both. IMO building a race car engine that is never going to be raced doesn't seem to make a lot of sense and likewise a street engine and try to take it racing. I've tried it a couple of times over the years and finally realized it's really not very practical. Anything that's 400-600 hp on the street is more than enough to get you into trouble, so anything more than that is jus for bragging rights since there's no place to use it. There's a lot more to it than just the engine component as well for a high horsepower combination.

BUT...people will do what they want to fill their dreams and empty their wallets, that's what makes the world go round. Do whatever makes you happy, that's the most important thing.
well I am taking what you say into deep consideration, even if you said it condescendingly ;)

maybe you can expand on what you said. what is the definition of a street car? what is your definition of a strip car? is it a street car if I drive it on the street once every two weeks? or does that make is a strip car.

or maybe we should have a "novacain" category. gets it done at the track but drives it on the street "all the time" :D

youve been there and done that, you should be patient with those of us who have not.
 

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Turbos and blowers are fun but why are you limiting yourself to only those 2 choices? Anything forced induction is going to cost alot more money than N/A and unless you are good with turbos and blowers I wouldn't recommend it. When you build a forced induction application its better just to build it for forced induction from the block up that way its done right. Turbos are alot of custom fab and tunning and the list goes on and on. In my opinion build something n/a that can run on pump gas and throw some nitrous in there for when you take it to the track. When you run high hp like Prostreet and Mike said that means you have to build up other parts of the car like fuel system, cooling system, suspension, roll cage, etc. Trust me I love horsepower but I would not want to put up with a car 1000+ hp car on the street, I have a race car for that and a street car for the street. I know its easy to get caught up in the magazines and 500+ bbc and blowers and all that but unless you plan to race it, have a good understanding of it, and have a car that is safely set up for it then it's really a waste of money and it will just be to say I have a turbo or this much hp. With technology and heads its easy to make a n/a 427ci to 496 ci 700hp at the crank for a reasonable price and on the street that is more than plenty
 

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V7 YSI the standard big block setup. Save lots of time and doesnt cost much more than a turbo setup if any. Build the motor around it and put it all in at once, dont even run NA.
 

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If 11.50 is your goal, you should be able to do that with a 9:1 454 even with the stock heads, a dual plane, and the right cam.

A 12:1 engine is useless...You really can't run pump gas, (I know Mike Morgan but you're an exception :D), but you're not taking full advantage of the $11/gallon gas you're buying. It's either 10.5:1 and pump gas, or 14:1+ and race gas.

Turbos are cool...Long learning curve, and a PITA with a blow through.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
In my opinion build something n/a that can run on pump gas and throw some nitrous in there for when you take it to the track.
hey, great post. I was looking at all the costs involved and I dont think Id be able to do the turbo just yet. when I think about how much money it really takes to do something like that, the whole car has to be upgraded, cages etc.

maybe one day I'll build a race car specifically for a twin turbo track terror but now I need to content myself with less.

so, Im thinking of this combo

496,
$1200 rotating assembly, cast crank, forged pistons
10.5:1 compression domes
$1500 dart 308 iron eagles 2.25/1.88 valves
$500 for machine work and pushrods
buy a good 4500 converter

Im thinking this would be a hot street engine that will live a long time and provide lots of fun on the street and lots of fun at the track and not require upgrading too many existing parts

so, now Im wondering if the above combo can get me 10.5 in the quarter

couple of questions for all
1. will iron heads run 10.5:1 on pump gas?
2 how big of a cam should I be thinking about running?
3. is it worth it machining the block for ford lifters so I can use higher lift flat tappet cam? I dont want a roller as Ive heard they need to idle at minimum 1500rpms to live on the street?
 

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Why $1500 iron eagles, when you can have Brodix Race Rite aluminum heads for ~$1800 complete? 270cc intake runner, small solid roller, performer RPM...This combo goes 9.90s on 93 octane in a very well known 3600;b+ green chevelle...
 

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well I am taking what you say into deep consideration, even if you said it condescendingly ;)

maybe you can expand on what you said. what is the definition of a street car? what is your definition of a strip car? is it a street car if I drive it on the street once every two weeks? or does that make is a strip car.

or maybe we should have a "novacain" category. gets it done at the track but drives it on the street "all the time" :D

youve been there and done that, you should be patient with those of us who have not.
Wasn't meant to be condescending at all, just stating things as I see them from my past experiences and observing many others. My view of things has changed dramatically over almost 47 years of rodding & racing. I've tried several times to have a daily driver/street rod/race car and realized there isn't any way to have all 3 in one. You HAVE to compromise in order to attempt it. There's a ton of people who think they have a 10 sec race car until they take them to the track and find out there's a lot more to it than that big, lumpy, engine they just spend ****$ to build. For most, it's a real eye opener and brings them down to reality.

I guess bottom line is each person has different expectation levels for what they do and what they will be happy with. My goals and expectations of what keeps me happy keep moving further out...
When I've achieved my goals, no matter what it is, they always seem to not be as grand as I imagined before I got there.
What I thought was a great paint job 15 years ago is mediocre today
What I thought was a top of the line car 15 years ago is way down the list today
5 years ago I thought anything over 500ci was a big engine...today a big engine is 700-900ci
When we started racing 3 years ago I thought running in the 7's was unbelieveably quick...now I'm disappointed unless we see very low 7's over 195 or that 6 sec over 200 number on the board.
For me I don't really know if I'll ever be totally content with where I'm at and will always be stretching for more, trying to get better or trying to get smarter.

I have quite a few friends around my age with similar backgrounds in the hobby and a majority of them seem to have similar thoughts and experiences, so I don't think I'm out of touch very far. All I'm trying to do is pass along my experiences to maybe give others a little different perspective from someone who's been there, done that before. Usually people have to do it themselves however as we're all individuals...I'm no different.

The bottom line is to do what makes YOU happy and makes YOU feel good. Now I've got to replace that $5K aluminum block in the race car that cracked in 3 places after we tossed a rod racing last weekend. Now THAT wasn't on my goal list, and DID NOT make me happy at all, and makes me feel ill. :eek:
 
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