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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I've had ladder bars on the rear with heim joints and that's how everyone seems to do it. But on front suspensions, I see more and more heim joints being used rather that your typical tube ends with urethane bushings as in normal car OEM designs.

So how long do these heim joints last in normal driving? I see most do not have grease fittings. There are stainless balls and sockets, there are stainless balls and teflon insert sockets.

Do the front control arms start to rattle when they get loose? By design they have to somewhat loose to start with.

I was just curious about their life expectency and thought I would ask the guys that have driven their custom front suspensions lots of miles.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
OK, I've had ladder bars on the rear with heim joints and that's how everyone seems to do it. But on front suspensions, I see more and more heim joints being used rather that your typical tube ends with urethane bushings as in normal car OEM designs.

So how long do these heim joints last in normal driving? I see most do not have grease fittings. There are stainless balls and sockets, there are stainless balls and Teflon insert sockets.

Do the front control arms start to rattle when they get loose? By design they have to somewhat loose to start with.

I was just curious about their life expectancy and thought I would ask the guys that have driven their custom front suspensions lots of miles.

Thanks.
I also see a lot of steering arms / drag links using heim joints as well. My experience in the machinery building industry where constant motion with back forth fast motion, heim joints loosen up quickly and then wear for quite a while. But that initial wear of heim joints in a suspension or steering situation, would suggest that there will be some rattling after a short time.

In steering arms, would it not be better to stick with the age old proven ball/socket ends we're all used to?

Any light on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 

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It all depends on many factors.

How many miles? Road conditions, weather conditions, size of tires, quality of the rod end etc., etc., etc.

I re-did my rear ladder bar set up in 2007. Since that time I still have the same rod ends in the ladder bars but I am on my second set of rod ends in my diagonal link and those are now rattling.
 

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My front upper and lower controll arms and sway bar (all CBR) as well as my rear Watts link (14 heims in all) have around 7K miles of street driving with no rattles or signs of wear yet. Useing high quality, self lubricating, made in USA heims probably helps longevity :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I appreciate the input and information.

I'm sure that high quality parts make for a long lasting setup.

Here is a picture of the rear suspension of my '40 Willys coupe. It had rod ends.



I put 16k miles on this car in two summers and I didn't know of any issues. It was quite loud going down the road so I didn't hear much if there were any suspension rattles.

The front suspesion used urethane rod ends and that's where I think heim rod ends might take more of a beating.



Even with the solid front axle, the car handles quite well and I had the bumpster to a minimum. The ride quality was just OK, but for a 100" wheel base it did very well. That's why I think that doing a gasser Nova would still have pretty good riding qualities, not as good obviously as IFS setup, but still very livable.

Thanks again.
 

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I appreciate the input and information.

Two things I noticed in this set up.

The first is how your diagonal link is set up, where it mounts will flex. It is best not to go to the link tube itself but to the mounts on the rear and the chassis. The flexing, no matter how minor, will lead to fatigue and eventually failure of the link tube and that would be a bad thing when you're tooling down the road.

The other is how you have your fuel pump mounted. An electric fuel pump needs to be gravity feed or premature failure will occur. An electric fuel pump is not designed to "suck" fuel and forcing it to do so will create excessive heat and vein wear leading to the early failure.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Two things I noticed in this set up.

The first is how your diagonal link is set up, where it mounts will flex. It is best not to go to the link tube itself but to the mounts on the rear and the chassis. The flexing, no matter how minor, will lead to fatigue and eventually failure of the link tube and that would be a bad thing when you're tooling down the road.

The other is how you have your fuel pump mounted. An electric fuel pump needs to be gravity feed or premature failure will occur. An electric fuel pump is not designed to "suck" fuel and forcing it to do so will create excessive heat and vein wear leading to the early failure.
Thanks for the suggestions. Sadly to say, I sold this to buy a '55 Nomad that I was doing a gasser conversion on.

The rear and front suspension is not of my design, but as it was made up at Outlaw Performance in PA. I did have to use blue Loctite on the threaded rod ends as they did tend to come loose from time to time. I still have that rear axle housing in my basement that I may end up using on my Nova project.

I did however do the fuel system. The picture does not show it very well, but the bottom of the Mallory pump is about flush with the bottom of the fuel tank. This is not a direct drain to the pump from the tank, but once the fuel starts flowing it should continue as a siphon. I used all AN lines and the fuel was only 3/8". When the motor was built and then dyno'd, they used my fuel pump and 3/8" lines to feed the motor and it maintained just over 6 psi throughout the complete pull cycle. I probably ran it at the strip 12 times in two outings. I drove the Willys two years and put over 16k miles on it in that time.

The current owner, since 2001, has not had any issues with the fuel system, but still has to have the rear end suspension gone over a couple times each summer. He's not a mechanic so he has a gear head friend help him out. I will also add that he has not put but only a thousand miles on the car since then.

I'm sure there are better solutions to both in this case. I will be asking for suggestions as I get deeper into my next Nova project. There is a LOT of talented guys here with tons of knowledge to share.

Thanks again for your observations, they are dully noted. All I have to do is get them through all my grey hair and into my little grey cells...
 

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There is certainly a difference in the quality of products being used. A typical none teflon lined joint will certainly create a bit more noise. The biggest factor in why people notice the clanky noises is usually associated with the rear suspensions.

When using rod ends in rear suspensions if the proper joints are not used they will be noisy because of the loads that the joint will see. With the torque of the engine and drive line there is a bit more force being applied.

On front suspensions the joints do not see the torque loading, they are basically along for the ride. As with anything the proper application needs to be applied for a quiet operation.
 

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13,250 miles on our CBR front suspension and the ride is as quiet as it was when new:yes::yes:
Huh, imagin that, quality and longevity from a Church Boys product! :rolleyes:

Who 'da thunk it! :D

Those guys are the best! Nice work Chuck! :thumbsup:
 

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There is certainly a difference in the quality of products being used. A typical none teflon lined joint will certainly create a bit more noise. The biggest factor in why people notice the clanky noises is usually associated with the rear suspensions.

When using rod ends in rear suspensions if the proper joints are not used they will be noisy because of the loads that the joint will see. With the torque of the engine and drive line there is a bit more force being applied.

On front suspensions the joints do not see the torque loading, they are basically along for the ride. As with anything the proper application needs to be applied for a quiet operation.
Well said!
 

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Two things I noticed in this set up.
The other is how you have your fuel pump mounted. An electric fuel pump needs to be gravity feed or premature failure will occur. An electric fuel pump is not designed to "suck" fuel and forcing it to do so will create excessive heat and vein wear leading to the early failure.
Not to thread jack you, but that seems like a pretty bold statement, considering that 95% of new cars "SUCK" fuel through a filter sock at bottom of the tank and push it out of the top of the tank and into the fuel line and all the way up to the rail. And do so for 100,000+ miles and don't fail. So is this just on some of the pumps you've seen failure? Or certain brands?


To the op, I used speedway brand 5/8" heims on my drag links I built for a Honda and I put over 20k+ on them and the only time they were noisy was when I first put them in. After about 100miles they got quiet. After that I check them every time I did a oil change and not once did I ever have slop. But I think again it comes down to road conditions and abuse. In the area I live and drive my cars the asphalt is butter smooth.
 

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Not to thread jack you, but that seems like a pretty bold statement, considering that 95% of new cars "SUCK" fuel through a filter sock at bottom of the tank and push it out of the top of the tank and into the fuel line and all the way up to the rail. And do so for 100,000+ miles and don't fail. So is this just on some of the pumps you've seen failure? Or certain brands?


To the op, I used speedway brand 5/8" heims on my drag links I built for a Honda and I put over 20k+ on them and the only time they were noisy was when I first put them in. After about 100miles they got quiet. After that I check them every time I did a oil change and not once did I ever have slop. But I think again it comes down to road conditions and abuse. In the area I live and drive my cars the asphalt is butter smooth.
95 - 100% of the new cars have an IN TANK non-vane pump. Huge difference.

PUMP MOUNTING AND INSTALLATION:

The best location for mounting any electric fuel pump is the rear of the vehicle. The inlet and outlet of the pump must be mounted below the lowest point of the tank. This is necessary to allow for an adequate fuel supply. The pump is designed to push fuel and not designed to suck fuel out of the tank. It needs to be gravity-fed or if it’s pulling from the top of the tank, it needs to develop a siphon feed to the pump. The pump should be mounted on the chassis, in a vertical position with the pump motor on top. Avoid exposure of the pump and fuel lines to moving parts and to any hot areas, such as the exhaust manifold. The pump should not be mounted in a closed area, such as the vehicle’s trunk. Follow the steps below for mounting the pump.

Referenced from Holley: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/...7914-3rev3.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #16
95 - 100% of the new cars have an IN TANK non-vane pump. Huge difference.

PUMP MOUNTING AND INSTALLATION:

The best location for mounting any electric fuel pump is the rear of the vehicle. The inlet and outlet of the pump must be mounted below the lowest point of the tank. This is necessary to allow for an adequate fuel supply. The pump is designed to push fuel and not designed to suck fuel out of the tank. It needs to be gravity-fed or if it’s pulling from the top of the tank, it needs to develop a siphon feed to the pump. The pump should be mounted on the chassis, in a vertical position with the pump motor on top. Avoid exposure of the pump and fuel lines to moving parts and to any hot areas, such as the exhaust manifold. The pump should not be mounted in a closed area, such as the vehicle’s trunk. Follow the steps below for mounting the pump.

Referenced from Holley: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/...7914-3rev3.pdf
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it all...

Pandora's Box, thanks for the quote from Holley.



So as I said, the picture does not really show it, but the bottom of the tank is level with the fuel pump in/out lines. I had it frame mounted, with vibration isolation cushions. I ran my inlet though a high flow filter. And it was in the rear of the car without any reflective heat from the exhaust.

I think my setup follows your's and Holley's recommendations.

I have another set of these parts in my cabinet and will probably do the same thing again on my next build. In some cases it is hard to get the pump below the bottom of the tank, but I'm sure I can make something work.

I respect the experience that is on this site very much. I appreciate your time to give an honest evaluation of the setup. As I said, as far as I know the new owner is having fun and burning rubber.

As far as using heim joint rod ends, I may use them more in the future based on great reviews on this thread.

Thanks again.
 
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