Flat Tappet Warning! Lack of Zddp and modern oils

204812 Views 495 Replies 116 Participants Last post by Bowtyeace971, 9 mo ago

veno

Discussion Starter · Dec 11, 2007

Hi fellow Nova nuts...... There has been some discussions for the last 6 or 7 months, maybe longer about which oils contain enough ZDDP for flat tappet cams.

Repinter just quoted me on my conversation with Valvoline... and has doubt, I too have doubt... so I am in search of definitive information on oils that will suit the needs of the flat tappet cam masses....

I have done some searching for the last month or so and have seen various opinions/posts on other fourms but never definitive answers as to which oils are safe for flat tappet cams. I have looked at product data sheets.. some times they read like stereo instructions.... not very help full....

There are very expensive oils out there that claim to have over 1800 PPM of ZDDP. like Champion, Joe Gibbs, and one other that escapes me now. but I wonder about the oil as suited for street use as they all say RACE ONLY.

My own mission has now become to find these oils that are safe to use in High lift, high spring rate cams of flat tappet design for street use.

So far I have identified 4 possible oil manufactures,,,, I will contact them further and ask to speak to a authoritative person for definitive info regarding flat tappet cams and the levels of ZDDP.... so that I may inform my fellow brethren in flat camdom hood if their product is safe to use.

what i would really like to find is am old API rating of S/E or S/G

It looks like one synthetic and 3 conventional oils may meet the needs of our engines....

I have been getting a good bit of education on oil additives and their use and safe levels for protection of flat cams.

I will post up as info becomes available.....

281 - 300 of 496 Posts

The Big Al

· #281 · Aug 31, 2008

bigdaddykane said:
Hi Big Al,
do you use Mercury Outboard 2 cycle oil in your engine? how do you use it? just add it to your regularengine oil? where can i get it? how much do you add? will it work for a hydrualic flat tappet cam?
thanks

NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,:no::no::no::no::no::no:

I use it in my outboard boat engine.

Mercury Racing HP 225 pro max

Those into boating know that everyone mostly uses the Mercury Quicksilver oil in there outboards no matter what brand ourboard they have.
Oil is loaded with the Green ZDDP!

bigdaddykane

· #282 · Aug 31, 2008

i dont know anything about boating... can you be more specific? i can tell if you joking or not....

danthegeek

· #283 · Sep 6, 2008

I had a quick question. Comp recommends a single grand oil for break in. Would the Rotella T SAE straight 30wt have enough additives in it for a cam break-in?

Thanks
-dan

The Big Al

· #284 · Sep 6, 2008

bigdaddykane said:
i dont know anything about boating... can you be more specific? i can tell if you joking or not....

No joke!

I was making referance to the fact I only use Mercury Quicksilver 2 cycle oil.
In my 2 cycle engines!

I do not use it in my car!

veno

Discussion Starter · #285 · Sep 7, 2008

danthegeek said:
I had a quick question. Comp recommends a single grand oil for break in. Would the Rotella T SAE straight 30wt have enough additives in it for a cam break-in?

Thanks
-dan

Absolutely, the Straight weight rotela HD is the old CI4+ formula... then again valvoline 30wt VR1 has the same around the same amount of zinc and phosphorus as the rotela 30wt HD, so you have a second choice...

Valvoline recomends the VR1 30wt for breakin of high spring rate cams...

Good luck with the break in Dan....

in truth.. you will not have a problem if all your lifters spin freely in there bores....

Veno

The Big Al

· #286 · Sep 7, 2008

Jusr for everyones info!

AC Delco EOS!

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The Big Al

· #287 · Sep 7, 2008

GM EOS

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danthegeek

· #288 · Sep 7, 2008

veno said:
Absolutely, the Straight weight rotela HD is the old CI4+ formula... then again valvoline 30wt VR1 has the same around the same amount of zinc and phosphorus as the rotela 30wt HD, so you have a second choice...

Valvoline recomends the VR1 30wt for breakin of high spring rate cams...

Good luck with the break in Dan....

in truth.. you will not have a problem if all your lifters spin freely in there bores....

Veno

Thanks Veno, I appreciate all the help you have given me as well as all the time and effort you put into all of your research. I owe you one :beer:

-dan

veno

Discussion Starter · #289 · Oct 8, 2008

Some one awhile back asked about Accel oil? as it turns out... Accel oil is, from conversations, a fine oil...(needs testing) they use nothing but pure base stocks,(no flush or wash out oils) and they get their base stocks from Lubrizol...and blend their own ZDDP package... they also do a good bit of Private lable stuff too..... all the tractor supply oils(Traveler) sears oils.. and a few more.. plus they also blend for a few other BIG label guys... IF ya want to know PM me .. there is a telltale clue as to whom they are private labeling for.... and IF you PM me I will pass that along too....

So if yopu want to use Accel oil.. thats your call... as they should be fine... but with out testing these days.... its risky...

bigdaddykane

· #290 · Oct 9, 2008

Hi Veno,
i didnt notice anything about the Rotella fully synthetic 5W-40 here. do you know that blend changed with in the past year or so? like it has less zinc and phos now? or is it the same? thanks

veno said:
Some one awhile back asked about Accel oil? as it turns out... Accel oil is, from conversations, a fine oil...(needs testing) they use nothing but pure base stocks,(no flush or wash out oils) and they get their base stocks from Lubrizol...and blend their own ZDDP package... they also do a good bit of Private lable stuff too..... all the tractor supply oils(Traveler) sears oils.. and a few more.. plus they also blend for a few other BIG label guys... IF ya want to know PM me .. there is a telltale clue as to whom they are private labeling for.... and IF you PM me I will pass that along too....

So if yopu want to use Accel oil.. thats your call... as they should be fine... but with out testing these days.... its risky...

veno

Discussion Starter · #291 · Oct 10, 2008 (Edited)

bigdaddykane said:
Hi Veno,
i didnt notice anything about the Rotella fully synthetic 5W-40 here. do you know that blend changed with in the past year or so? like it has less zinc and phos now? or is it the same? thanks

all the HD oils are now limited to 1300ppm zinc and 1000 phos...as of 11/07 EDIT in mulit vis.. the straight weights are still the old CI formula

so the Rotela syn.. is going to fall in those lines....

bigdaddykane

· #292 · Oct 11, 2008

hi veno, just curious, do you know what the Rotella fully synthetic 5W-40 was before they changed it? thanks so much

veno said:
all the HD oils are now limited to 1300ppm zinc and 1000 phos...as of 11/07

so the Rotela syn.. is going to fall in those lines....

veno

Discussion Starter · #293 · Oct 11, 2008

sorry no

Scooter

· #294 · Dec 17, 2008 (Edited)

veno said:
NOW this oil is the the king of the diesels oils as far as ZDDP protection is concerned... Vavoline has assured me... the minimum content is....... 1630PPM ZN. and 1490PPM ph... that will breakin ANY ENGINE all by its self.. the weight is standard 15W40 which is not too bad for breakin.... Now the draw backs which there are 2... #1 its only available from NAPA...#2(no big deal) it only available in 5gal pails......

FYI I just bought some of this oil at NAPA in 1 gallon jugs, also I noticed they carry it it in gallon jugs at my local Autozone. Cost $15.99/gal at Napa and it was a couple dollars less at autozone. I'm going to use this oil to break in my 383. Thanks for all the info Veno!! :thumbsup:

Now I'm assuming the oil you speak of is the natural oil right? In the catalog at NAPA they also listed a synthetic Premium Blue Classic. I bought the non-synthetic, hopefully its the good one.

veno

Discussion Starter · #295 · Dec 27, 2008

Small up date..

to the pour on top solutions

this is from Crowers web site..
http://www.crower.com/dl/ZDDP_clr.pdf

ZDDPlus™, GM EOS and TORCO:
ZDDPlus™ contains 42,700 ppm of phosphorus and 57,300 ppm of zinc. When a 4-ounce
bottle of ZDDPlus™ is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 41:1, which contributes 1047 ppm
of phosphorus and 1397ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

GM EOS contains 6210 ppm of phosphorus and 6820 ppm of zinc. When a 12-ounce bottle of
GM EOS is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 11:1 which contributes 565 ppm of phosphorus
and 620 ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

Torco ZEP contains 6015 ppm of phosphorus and 6783 ppm of zinc. When a 12-ounce bottle
of Torco Zep is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 14.3:1 which contributes 421 ppm of phosphorus
and 474 ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

ZDDPlus™ adds much more real ZDDP than any other product due to its extremely high concentration.
Using ZDDPlus™ eliminated adding large amounts of unwanted filler oil that less
concentrated products contain.

Most SM oils contain between 600-800 ppm of both phosphorus and zinc. This number would
then be added to each of the numbers we stated for ZDDPlus™, GM EOS or Torco ZEP.

THX138

· #296 · Feb 15, 2009

This is the discussion over on the ZR-1 Corvette forums and the censuses is that Amsoil seems to be the oil to use in these cars.These cars have a noisy cam chain that make some racket when the car starts after sitting for awhile and the Amsoil seems to quiet this down as well so Ill give it a shot.

jimfulco

· #297 · Feb 25, 2009

jimfulco said:
Anybody know anything about the Accel 10w-40 SF-rated oil sold at Wal-Mart and made by Warren Performance Products of Omaha NE?

SWHEATON
May 18th, 08, 8:50 AM
I had the ACCEL 10W-40, API SF tested for zddp ,it had approx 800ppm zddp which is well below the rec 1200ppm-1400ppm,so dont use it.

This is from the chevelles.com forum. I guess I have my answer.

veno

Discussion Starter · #298 · Mar 18, 2009

No major news.. but since I have done little here in a while.. I thought I would post this up..

Mobil1 Turbo, truck, Diesel.. 5w40... UOA with 3k on the sample
Sample taken
10/18/08

Boron 58
magnesium 532
Calcium 2501
Barium 0
Phos 1222
Zinc 1504
Fuel <.5%
Soot <.1%
Water <.1
Vis @ 100C 17.1cs (?)
TBN 10.9

If your a Zinc and Phos nut.... this sample with 3k on it is impressive for retention and protection... It should or could go another 10k

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R63SS

· #299 · Mar 18, 2009

Wow lots of info to take in!

I just have to sit back and laugh at all these specs and so on it pretty much all comes down to who you believe seeing all these companies as it was stated earlier have the "best" product.I personally run Castrol GTX which has always been great keeping clean between regular oil changes priced reasonable for the working man not $10 a quart like others and also is right at the top of the so called charts.It is true that these cams,lifters and so on do need the zinc content to prevent brakedown but an oil with a lot of zinc compared to others does not protect it more than others just lengthens the protection between longer spaced out oil changes.If you change your oil on the regular then oil with a good amount of zinc will be just fine !!

bigdaddykane

· #300 · Mar 19, 2009

veno said:
No major news.. but since I have done little here in a while.. I thought I would post this up..

Mobil1 Turbo, truck, Diesel.. 5w40... UOA with 3k on the sample
Sample taken
10/18/08

Boron 58
magnesium 532
Calcium 2501
Barium 0
Phos 1222
Zinc 1504
Fuel <.5%
Soot <.1%
Water <.1
Vis @ 100C 17.1cs (?)
TBN 10.9

If your a Zinc and Phos nut.... this sample with 3k on it is impressive for retention and protection... It should or could go another 10k

hey Veno, do you have a picture of what this oil quart looks like so i can identify it in the store? also what do you mean by "If your a Zinc and Phos nut.... this sample with 3k on it is impressive for retention and protection... It should or could go another 10k" ? im not sure what that means....
thanks

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