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Discussion Starter #1
Well, as the title suggests I.....or should I say the person doing my alignment had quite a time with the eccentrics today.

This may seem hard to believe, but three of the four eccentrics stripped!! Needless to say this was very disappointing as the alignment was not complete yet so everything had to be tightened up as-is and it will be a while again before I can drive it :mad:

The plates on the ends of every eccentric (opposite the head of the bolts) rotated with the head of the bolt, however on three of the four eccentrics, the plates on the head end all stopped rotating with the head of the bolt eventually. I haven't torn them apart yet, however I am assuming that the bolts themselves lost their flatspots on them and just rounded.

I called CPP and talked to someone and was informed that this is the first time he has heard of it and will take note of it and discuss it with the engineer.

I assumed he would either take my information and send me new eccentrics, or else transfer me to someone to take care of me. It surprised me so much that I just stood there and then eventually just said "Thank you", and hung up.

I should say that the eccentrics, although they looked like the factory ones that I removed initially from my car don't seem as "beefy" as the a couple that I purchased and was going to install before getting my lockout kit. They have square holes in the plate at the bolt-head end and are welded to the head of the bolt. Of course the threaded end has flats on them.

Am I wrong to assume that you should just be able to take your wrench and turn them all day long without difficulties, then change direction and turn them the other way til your arms fall off?

I'm assuming that the factory ones will fit, as you do use the original location for one of the eccentrics. I'll have to ensure that the diameter of these bolts is the same. If that's the case I guess I'll just buy another set of factory ones and hope that the same thing doesn't happen to those.

My luck. I'm probably the only one this has ever happened to. I can understand maybe one messing up.......but three??

Any explanation??
 

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Any chance you could use the lockout kit; unless you were going to tack weld the eccentrics wouldn't the CPP setup still have the same unstable alignment as with the factory setup.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Dan, I wouldn't let a little thing like this sway you from buying this kit. Easy to install, and there is a huge difference in road-feel and handling. Even in the city sometimes when going over a larger bump like a manhole cover depression the car would sort of bounce left and/or right. On the way to the shop for the alignment and back home I looked for bumps to drive over and was pleasantly surprised at the difference in how it felt. Although this happened, I'm more than happy with this upgrade and would recommend it to anyone.

Shawn, I had thought of using the lockout kit, but would really prefer to use the eccentrics. After the alignment is complete I'll be punching a mark at 12 o'clock on the cams and keep an eye on them. I had the same question and asked NOGO this. At the time he said there was over 400 miles on his and nothing had moved. The unstable alignment should be totally eliminated due to having the two bushings as compared to one.

As for the mechanic performing the alignment. He is a personal friend with nearly 18 years experience on cars, and has built a few cars over the years, including a beautiful Coronet convertible (which he regrettably sold about 3 or 4 years ago). I just crouched and watched from in front of the car and all he was doing was trying to get the high end of the elipse near the 12 o'clock position on the first one that failed.

I'm recovering from surgery so I shouldn't really be playing with this now. I'm set to go back for an alignment in a couple of weeks so just before that I'll be installing some quality alignment eccentrics and try to spin them round and round to see what happens.
 

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Paul; I'd be making another call to CPP; demand to talk to a higher authority. It's possible your alignment guy did "unknowingly" do something wrong and if so then CPP needs to address the issue and include a warning in their instructions.
I would think the stress of driving would be far greater than what can be applied with a wrench; this is a critical suspension part .... CPP should be concerned from a liability stand point.
I worked in manufacturing for over 25 years and was involved in bringing new designs into production. I can tell you that engineering prototypes which were generally handcrafted by machinists according to a blueprint were far different from what finally came off the prodution line.
From what I've read "Nogo" was the test pilot and may have received a "prototype" kit. Their true producton units maybe different. I'd try asking for someone in quality control and or engineering.
If you talked to someone in sales their biggest concern maybe just that..sales. From my experience sales pushes to get new products to the market sometimes at the cost of proper developement and testing. When the "poop" finally hits the fan as in product failure; production is the first to be blamed who in turn blame engineering who in turn blame sales for lack of developement time. In defence of sales people, they're under great pressure to whatelse...sell. It's a visicous circle but it's reality.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Dan,
I bought eccentrics at my local NAPA when collecting parts for the front end rebuild before finding out about the lockout kit which I ended up going with.

MOOG part# K8243A (1 pair per kit)

The plan is to remove one of the eccentrics from the CPP kit as they all have to be removed anyway, and compare it to the ones that I have listed above. I'm sure if the threads are the same size which I'm willing to bet they are, then I'll be good to go as I don't recall seeing any step change in the diameter of the shafts as compared to the threads.

Hopefully within the next couple of days I can verify. Like I said in my initial post, these MOOG parts do look "beefier" than the ones supplied in the kit, however I'm not qualified to say whether they are of higher quality.

You brought up some good points Shawn. I should contact CPP and discuss this with an engineer as they should be interested.
 

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Ok guys,

1. My stock eccentrics would not fit- the shank was slightly larger by about .005".

2. I received a production kit- I think I was one of the first people to install it. The UPPER arms are pre-production- I have yet to install them (probably next weekend)

3. You MUST install the washers with the eccentrics- did you do this 63AKDN?

4. I am suprised the eccentric flats stripped- I used a 12" 3/8 drive wrench to make my adjustments, you should'nt need more force. Was you mechanic using a 1/2" breaker bar? Also, when performing an alignment you NEED the wheel turn plates, if not you will need much more force to make adjustments, and the grip of the tire will cause a bind. The only thing I can think of is you mechanic didnt use the plates.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Bryan,
Too bad the stock eccentrics will not fit. Thanks for saving me some time. I guess I'll need another set from CPP. You would think they would have designed it so factory eccentrics could be used.

As for the washers, I installed them as shown in the instructions. Unfortunately I did not receive them with the kit so the installation had to be put on hold, but I did receive them a few days after calling them.

I'm assuming the wheel turn plates are the square plates that the front tires sit on during the alignment that allow movement. These were used and the pins had been removed from the plates.

He was using a 3/8" ratchet, probably 12" to 14" in length. At first they all seemed to turn fairly well with more effort required at certain parts of the rotation on three of the four eccentrics. The first one stripped by use of the ratchet only, with a considerable amount of effort required, after that he put a box wrench on the ratchet handle to assist in turning the other three which also stripped.

Something is obviously wrong here. Too bad I'm not closer to the factory, then they could send a tech person down to see what's going on. Now I am starting to get depressed. I've already missed out on a couple weeks worth of cruising. Winter comes fast here, and I'd like to enjoy the car before that white stuff starts flying.
 

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hi guys,
i'm reading this thread with a fair bit of concern.i ordered this kit too,but they claimed that all the press on this cool new kit meant a b/order of a couple of weeks.it's kind of ironic that when i questioned dan(cpp's phone sales guy) about how this kit worked,he referred me to stevesnovasite for the 'truth'.i know sometimes there are problems,but it sounds like they blew you off when you had a real problem.perhaps you need to remind them that steve's site is still here and there's some buzz about there stuff .good and bad buzz.keep us posted please.thx,cj.
 

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I think I know what happened here. The CPP lower arms are a very tight fit in the pockets provided for the bushings. The bushings are also much harder than stock type rubber bushings- so they have very little give.

When I mentioned in the initial write-up you have to adjust camber and caster at the same time, this is done by adjusting both eccentrics on each arm at the same time. If you try to adjust one eccentric at a time the arm will bind in the pocket because it cannot rotate in the tight pocket. Here is a crappy illistration I did for some clarification:
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Bryan,
That makes sense. The eccentrics were not adjusted simulatneously during the alignment. The left arm was quite a bit easier to install than the right side, and I definitely agree that the bushings are quite tight in the pockets.

As for your stock eccentrics not fitting......is there actually that little clearance that the stock eccentric would not fit into the bushing? My stock replacement eccentrics (MOOG) and lockout kit bolts were nowhere near to being close to where a 0.005" difference in diameter would make a difference when placed into the stock bushings on the control arms that were removed from my car for this kit.

I then decided to remove one of the CPP eccentrics to compare the diameters and measured three or four places along the lengths of three different eccentric/lockout bolt kits.

The diameters varied by about 0.003" total.
MOOG eccentric bolt was at about 0.490", Global West lockout bolts were about 0.493", and the CPP eccentric bolt measured about 0.492".

The MOOG slid quite easily into place, so I ended up removing the other CPP eccentric on the same arm and replaced it with the other MOOG eccentric from my kit. I orderd another kit for the other side.

I didn't move the eccentrics too much, but they did seem to move fairly easily, although this was the side that installed into the pockets quite easily.
I am hopeful that this resolve the problem.
 

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Just another suggestion,

If your alignment tech is still having a hard time ask him if he can do an alignment using "jacking compensation". This allows you to align camber/caster with the front of the vehicle jacked up in the air and all the weight off the arms. You can get the alignment very close this way so only minor adjustments are needed when the vehicle is back on the ground, reducing the chance for binding.
 

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63AKDN said:
As for your stock eccentrics not fitting......is there actually that little clearance that the stock eccentric would not fit into the bushing?
When I initially installed my kit I was missing two eccentric bolts so I attempted to use the old ones I took off. The bolts went through the bushing up until the last 1.5 - 2" or so, then they would'nt even budge with my hammer! I think the tolerance is tight on the bushing, and CPP used their eccentric replacement bolts to base the measurements when designing the bushing. The minor difference in the shank size between CPP's bolts and my stock ones was enough to not allow me to use the stock ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Good suggestion Bryan, thanks. I'm actually starting to feel good about this now. Hopefully I got this thing licked!

Boy, that seems odd that the eccentrics were that tight a fit with your kit as compared to mine. I guess once the nut is tightened the bushing is squeezed in the pocket and isn't going to move anyway.
 

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I replaced my eccentrics with Moogs and there is a difference,why must a washer be placed behind the eccentric when the stock ones never had washers?
 

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I called CPP and talked to someone and was informed that this is the first time he has heard of it and will take note of it and discuss it with the engineer.
This is total B.S. because 2 to 3 weeks ago we had the same problem on my fathers install of this same mini sub frame kit. I called CPP and tried to talk to the Engineer and they kept telling us he was in a photo shoot and he would call us back later. Unfortunately, we had to call them back and talked to an Engineer named Dan Nicks from CPP. We tried everything to get this alignment taken care of and one of his suggestions was we needed to buy the CPP upper control arms to fix this. He said this is the only way to get the proper caster as the CPP upper arms have the correct ball joint angle that will give us positive caster. We thought this was a sales gimmick. Our next call was to a company that has dealt w/CPP directly and they confirmed that buying the uppers would not solve our problem.
So this led to another call to CPP same run around again playing phone tag and finally talking to the engineer again at CPP. This conversation ended with the Tech asking us if we purchased the kit form CPP or someone else I told him that we purchased it from one of their distributors , once he herd that he told us to contact them then ended with telling us that maybe our front end was bent. So we have tried to get this resolved and nothing so far. Front end checked out fine. Right now we have very little faith in CPP. And are trying to get it resolved through the shop we purchased it from. Maybe we got a bad kit but something needs to be done!!

Sorry for the long post, but I am starting to feel like people do not stand behind the products that they sell. And I will not just sit back and throw away $400.00.
 
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