flexplate bolts - Page 2 - Chevy Nova Forum
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Old 22nd-February-2009, 12:54 PM   #16
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Thanks guys I appreciate it!!! I am reinstalling my tranny and I left all the bolts at my broinlaws shop over and hour away so I just went out an bought all new ones..Thanks!!
now I just need to find the right ubolts for the driveshaft in back..The 1310r ujoints are wierd to find ones that fit...
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Old 22nd-February-2009, 01:28 PM   #17
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I hate to go against the grain here but ARP has instructions with the flexplate bolts that state NO LOCTITE. I installed mine without loctite 4 years ago and I do not have any issues.
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Old 22nd-February-2009, 10:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOGO View Post
I hate to go against the grain here but ARP has instructions with the flexplate bolts that state NO LOCTITE. I installed mine without loctite 4 years ago and I do not have any issues.
Does the instructions say why? Sometimes adding a substance to the threads changes torque to stretch.

In all my 22 years at Roush we always used blue (removable) Loctite on flywheel and clutch cover bolts.

Statistically, just because one person never has a problem, doesn't mean that everyone will never have a problem.
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Building a small, high rpm engine
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Old 22nd-February-2009, 10:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Wright View Post
Does the instructions say why? Sometimes adding a substance to the threads changes torque to stretch.

In all my 22 years at Roush we always used blue (removable) Loctite on flywheel and clutch cover bolts.

Statistically, just because one person never has a problem, doesn't mean that everyone will never have a problem.
I was wondering why- I see your point with a change in torque, but I wouldnt imagine it was critical. I figure ARP had a good enough reason to put it in their instructions, so I just went with it. Keep in mind the ARP fasteners were the only ones I installed without Loctite. In my 5 years at Roush I used it too!
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Old 22nd-February-2009, 11:03 PM   #20
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I would never second guess ARP http://www.arp-bolts.com/

Fasteners and metallurgy is there business and only business. They excel in this area. They have done a lot more studies and have a high quality product than what you would find in a production standard fasteners.

I would follow their instructions to the letter.

I also have there flex-plate bolts on my engine and installed buy their instructions. I can promise you they have been tested!



Al
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 05:12 AM   #21
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Im not trying to argue here, i can't even remember if i put loctite or not or if i have arp bolts or not on my flexplate. BUT, is the flexplate bolt that critical that it bolt torque is really going to be affected by loctite? I understand 60 to 65 so it doesn't come loose and don't want to strip the threads. Its like converter bolts, as long as they hold the converter to the flexplate and don't come loose, or even oilpan bolts, as long as they hold the pan up.
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 09:17 AM   #22
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I'll say this..... GM to my knowledge never used any thread locker on any Flywheel, or Flexplate.... including some of th most famous RPO codes...

I have never used any thread locker on any of the bolts, nor has any of my friends....that I know about...

I figure the engineers at GM (when figuring this out) saw no need.... and to this day... even in the most radical of factory offerings.. still to not use a thread locker on fly/flex bolts....

JMO
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 09:59 AM   #23
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I do not believe you could even use Loctite with ARP fasteners, they require thread lube.

I don't think the 2 would mix.

AL
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 11:54 AM   #24
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Stock flex plate bolts usually have "star" washers under them to prevent vibrating loose. In racing applications, this may not be enough. That's why we would always make sure it wouldn't come loose with blue Loctite, but we could still remove the bolt.

If you install it while still wet, it acts like a lube. You have to torque it before it sets up or your torque wrench will click too soon.

I agree that ARP directions should be followed. I just wanted to know why they didn't recommend Thread locker. I'm guessing because the proper usage is difficult to control and improper use may result in insufficient clamping force, they decided it's not worth the chance.

Note also that ARP fasteners may even have different torque spec than stock, so always refer to the ARP sheet for torque spec.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Wright
Building a small, high rpm engine
with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive...
like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar.

Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol.
.
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 12:04 PM   #25
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I've done quite a few tranny and clutch jobs over the years. After trying to keep the flexplate/flywheel from turning and trying to get an accurate torque on the bolts.....and getting frustrated....I started just using the impact to put them in. They are not a torque-sensitive scenario like a rod bolt, cylinder head bolt/stud, main bolt/stud, etc. so as long as they are tight enough that they DON'T come loose..no prob... Same goes for the harmonic balancer bolt.

There has been a few applications where I DID use some Loc-tite red. Typically when using aluminum flywheels because of the different expansion rate of the different metals I figured it was good insurance. I'm not too worried about when it comes time to take them out.....I've got a MEAN impact!!!
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 12:56 PM   #26
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I've done quite a few tranny and clutch jobs over the years. After trying to keep the flexplate/flywheel from turning and trying to get an accurate torque on the bolts.....and getting frustrated....I started just using the impact to put them in. They are not a torque-sensitive scenario like a rod bolt, cylinder head bolt/stud, main bolt/stud, etc. so as long as they are tight enough that they DON'T come loose..no prob... Same goes for the harmonic balancer bolt.

There has been a few applications where I DID use some Loc-tite red. Typically when using aluminum flywheels because of the different expansion rate of the different metals I figured it was good insurance. I'm not too worried about when it comes time to take them out.....I've got a MEAN impact!!!
A flywheel bolt isn't critical until it fails. Ask Kev.
Using an impact, especially a mean on can fatigue and yield the bolt.
I don't suppose you read my post about bolts being springs and all that.

A bolt is designed to stretch a little bit. The threads are basically an incline wedge wrapped around in a circle. Rotating the bolt X number of turns stretches the bolt which applies clamping force.

Bolt makers figure out how much torque is required to stretch the bolt the proper amount.
Hammering the bolt with an impact until it stops turning probably exceeds the stretch and if repeated enough times, will eventually fail the bolt.
This may not happen until long after it leaves your garage and you may never know that.

There is a flywheel holding tool that allows you to keep the flywheel from turning so you can properly torque the bolts.

I might add that if you do the same impact installation with clutch cover bolts, you can distort the cover. These should be hand torqued in a criss-cross pattern in steps.

Flywheels and clutches are more complicated than most mechanics realize.

I've spent many hours with clutch engineers and it's mind boggling how much there is to them.

If you are drag racing a manual trans car, the difference between a good clutch installation and a hammer job can make a real difference in starting line efficiency.
Again, I've spent many hours with clutch engineers at the drag strip doing clutch development testing. We cringe when we hear about people impact wrenching clutches on. Believe me, it's nothing to brag about.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Wright
Building a small, high rpm engine
with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive...
like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar.

Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol.
.

Last edited by Paul Wright; 23rd-February-2009 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 02:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Wright View Post
A flywheel bolt isn't critical until it fails. Ask Kev.
Using an impact, especially a mean on can fatigue and yield the bolt.
I don't suppose you read my post about bolts being springs and all that.

A bolt is designed to stretch a little bit. The threads are basically an incline wedge wrapped around in a circle. Rotating the bolt X number of turns stretches the bolt which applies clamping force.

Bolt makers figure out how much torque is required to stretch the bolt the proper amount.
Hammering the bolt with an impact until it stops turning probably exceeds the stretch and if repeated enough times, will eventually fail the bolt.
This may not happen until long after it leaves your garage and you may never know that.

There is a flywheel holding tool that allows you to keep the flywheel from turning so you can properly torque the bolts.

I might add that if you do the same impact installation with clutch cover bolts, you can distort the cover. These should be hand torqued in a criss-cross pattern in steps.

Flywheels and clutches are more complicated than most mechanics realize.

I've spent many hours with clutch engineers and it's mind boggling how much there is to them.

If you are drag racing a manual trans car, the difference between a good clutch installation and a hammer job can make a real difference in starting line efficiency.
Again, I've spent many hours with clutch engineers at the drag strip doing clutch development testing. We cringe when we hear about people impact wrenching clutches on. Believe me, it's nothing to brag about.
You seem to have taken that as an insult.
I'm very familiar with bolt stretch and use my stretch gauge on every rod bolt religiously. My machinist knows this and does my machine work accordingly.
Sorry if I made it sound like I'm just some idiot pounding away on things...
I know to criss-cross the pattern and to do it in stages. ESPECIALLY on pressure plates/hats!!.....and those outer bolts are quite a bit easier to torque!!! And yes, the rev-lock and multi-disk clutches are adjusted with inch-pounds of preload so I know how sensitive they can be.
I don't re-use flywheel/flexplate bolts more than once so I'm not worried about their "Cycle fatigue" from being loosened and re-tightened several times.
I know all about the flywheel holding tools....I have several. Right along with the scars on my knuckles and the receipts from having my torque wrenches recalibrated when things slipped and went flying.
My work remains in a pretty tight circle of friends so I would know if something went wrong. The last clutch I did was on my brother's T/A which puts right at 560 HP - 530 lbs/ft to the rear wheels and his Spec stage III+ lasted him a little over 50,000 miles and SEVERAL SCCA events. I just recently replaced the friction disc in it because the sprung hub finally gave up the ghost.
Impacts have their place and like any tool can be destructive in the wrong hands. Mine's an IR 2135 Ti. With 150 #'s of air pressure, I can break wheel studs in seconds, yet I also use it to run on the little plastic factory center cap nuts without any problems.

I guess this is one of those "Hammer and block of wood" balancer and u-joint things. Everyone has their own way...
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 02:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
The last clutch I did was on my brother's T/A which puts right at 560 HP - 530 lbs/ft to the rear wheels and his Spec stage III+ lasted him a little over 50,000 miles and SEVERAL SCCA events. I just recently replaced the friction disc in it because the sprung hub finally gave up the ghost.
I know this car... I was laying on my back fighting a 6speed trans with two brothers... @ midnight..... and you PUT A INPACT ON IT!... Ho wait I watched ya do do it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
I guess this is one of those "Hammer and block of wood" balancer and u-joint things. Everyone has their own way...

What wrong with that?
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Old 23rd-February-2009, 10:14 PM   #29
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Impacts must be a Texas thing. Most of the guys here are from east Texas and the only tools they seem to use are the hammer and impact. Lot's of broken parts, cross threaded or stripped threads.

I guess what I'm saying is if a bolt requires 65 ft/lbs and you use a 200 ft/lb impact what's the technical benefit other than it's faster than doing it carefully?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Wright
Building a small, high rpm engine
with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive...
like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar.

Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol.
.
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Old 24th-February-2009, 11:09 AM   #30
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Yep us redneck, east texas boys are purdy dumb... seeing how we the only state in the union that can withdraw from the UNION, and then dived in to five separate nations.... build the astrodome, launch and control space ships, second largest port in the nation, produce a few presidents, have the largest medical center in the USA(houston), the #1 cancer research center in the USA(MD Anderson).. now that the recession is here I see all manor of out of state plates here looking for work....

yeppers, just a bunch of dumb hillbillies..

I dont know what all us dumb Hillbillies would have done if it were not for Smart Yankees telling us how to build, research, farm, and correct all the stupid things we do down here...

But your right.. a Torque wrench and a locktite.... use it on everything...

EDIT.. I wish I had a Nickel for every time I heard... "Thats not how we do up in..." and the reason your down here working is?
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Last edited by veno; 24th-February-2009 at 11:42 AM.
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