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twin turbo set up

17K views 52 replies 15 participants last post by  72GreenRally 
#1 ·
#2 ·
they are all knock off parts. Theres a few people that have used the cheap turbos and work, but kind of keep in the back of your head that its very bottom of the barrel stuff that has a higher chance of the parts failing.

* Looking at the feedback...i'd steer clear.
 
#3 ·
i read most of their neg feedback

That seems a little too cheap if they used quality stuff. But , hey it might do good. My buddy thats an engine builder built a dual turbo water-after cooled , fuel injected 406 this summer and it was 40k for the whole thing.
They do have a few neg feedback, but , looks like they fixed the problem after they got blasted on E-bay.
 
#6 ·
My buddy thats an engine builder built a dual turbo water-after cooled , fuel injected 406 this summer and it was 40k for the whole thing.
40k? I must question this because it seems really out of wack. Hes an engine builder (meaning he can do some stuff himself) and yet he dropped 40k? Is this like a 7 second car? Details? Pics? Im very interested in this.
 
#21 ·
Heads...They have come a long way. And you can either pay for someone name that says they work, or you can pay for just ones that work. If you pay that much you better have a 2000+hp rocket ship.
Example of new stuff.. A set of trick flow heads can be had for $2k that flow 275 and a set of Stock GM L92 heads with the same good parts can be had for $1k that flow 325 untouched. A couple years ago they were not available.

Research and knowledge replaces high priced parts. I just been reading a lot of peoples builds and am blown away at some of them. They spend a ton extra because they dont bother to research anything (mostly on other sites).

Theres a place that makes turbo "kits" and what they include is factory truck manifolds (lsx style) and a basic Y-pipe from the manifolds to the turbo. And a down pipe from the turbo down. This is called the "hot side". They want like $1500. for this hot side and people are like...WOW thats awesome. This is something your local exhaust shop can do for $200. Heres a few pics. And....people have made 1500hp with kits like this. Considerably less than $40k. I think it looks like crap though. This is not my stuff....just pics i found.



For $3700 you get (i think its a rip off)
TC76 Turbo Setup
-6.0L Manifolds
-Mild Steel 2.5” Charge Pipes with a T4 Flange and Integrated Waste Gate mount and narrow band O2 bungs
-Mild Steel 3” Down Pipe with a Wide band O2 bung
-Turbonetics TC76mm Turbo
-TurboSmart 38mm Waste Gate
-TurboSmart Blow Off Valve
-Front Mount Intercooler 31”x12”x4”
-Stainless steel 3” Intercooler Pipes with Integrated BOV mount
-4 Ply Silicone Couplings
-T-Bolt Clamps
Ok......understand we're not talking about what someone can do for themselves. We're talking about "Turn-key" deals...
It's obvious you haven't dealt with any big-time engine builders. Here's just a few examples:
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/chevy/dailydriver/tt/dds_406_tt.pdf
(and that's for a DAILY DRIVER......NOT a full race set-up.)
http://treracingengines.com/treenginespackage.shtml
(And those are naturally aspirated)
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate Engines/UNLIMITED SUPERCHARGED TURBO CHARGED 440.html
(And that doesn't include ANY compressors, intercoolers, fuel systems, etc..)
This one does..
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate Engines/2000HP SUPERCHARGED CRATE ENGINE.html
 
#22 ·
Ok......understand we're not talking about what someone can do for themselves. We're talking about "Turn-key" deals...
It's obvious you haven't dealt with any big-time engine builders. Here's just a few examples:
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/chevy/dailydriver/tt/dds_406_tt.pdf
(and that's for a DAILY DRIVER......NOT a full race set-up.)
http://treracingengines.com/treenginespackage.shtml
(And those are naturally aspirated)
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate Engines/UNLIMITED SUPERCHARGED TURBO CHARGED 440.html
(And that doesn't include ANY compressors, intercoolers, fuel systems, etc..)
This one does..
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate Engines/2000HP SUPERCHARGED CRATE ENGINE.html

What justifies those prices though? Do they send it to Germany and have the oldest slowest person assemble it? The first link to me looks $20k over priced.....maybe $15k. Its nothing special put together. I guess if there are uneducated people out there who will pay, theres people out there to take advantage of it. Just because you can find high priced stuff doesnt mean by any neans its worth it.
Theres maybe $3-4k in the turbo setup on that....thats if they are ball bearing turbos. Thats just insane.
 
#4 · (Edited)
For that price, it seems like a good starting point at a minimum for a cheap motor. Research over on theturboforums and see what people are saying with this stuff. One guy has two of those chinese turbos running on a 396 I think and has had good luck so far. Ive got a few chinese wastegates and bovs from ebay and they are real nice pieces, I dont know if they work long term though.

edit: Notice that kit is $1680. You can get the same kit but with internal wastegates for $1480. I'd rather have internal gates on small turbos like that anyway.
 
#7 ·
40k? I must question this because it seems really out of wack. Hes an engine builder (meaning he can do some stuff himself) and yet he dropped 40k? Is this like a 7 second car? Details? Pics? Im very interested in this.
especially when the banks twin turbo kit is much less than that
 
#16 ·
Id like to see the build up price sheet also. And Im not even saying you CANT stuff 40k of parts into an engine. But if yer a builder yer not gonna pay list for parts. And labor can be a significant part of that.

So if its just parts costs, then that sounds steep. But if its out the door cost to a customer, yeah, I can see it, easily.

And for 40 grand I could see alot of folks here making a pretty good X-mas list of parts. That will buy you a 2500hp engine anytime.

Oh, I guess reality just rang the door bell, do I answer?? Do you put a 40k engine in a Nova. No. I wouldnt and dont know anyone that would.

Now a money making rocket for the track, yeah!! But I wouldnt use a Nova body. And thats all it would be. A carbon fiber body on a complete race chassis.

My engine is about 10k complete. And its a mild SBC. Nothing special. Stuff starts adding up but quick.

But I would love to have a 40k engine. Hell, would love to see 40k LOL What fun.. JR
 
#18 ·
I have thought about it...thats why I ask. Aftermarket block/heads, all forged parts...you could blow $10k on. And you probably could blow another $10k on a twin turbo setup. I dont see how you can blow $40k though. $20k on a engine and turbo setup you should be able to make 2000HP.
Not even close. I could put together the list of cost on a project that myself and Brian Macy (TurboNova) just colaborated on, but i'd probably wear out my keyboard. :) Most people just don't have a clue as to what it takes to build, from scratch, somthing that makes that kind of power. The project that we are doing is a twin 88mm, efi, alky, 363" sb Ford. As of right now (and we are redoing some of it) it has 195 an fittings and 120ft of hose. That was about $6k there. At three injectors per cylinder to feed enough fuel, a custom computer to drive the injectors, custom manufacturing of each and every part that goes with it and you can see how the cost to build that kind of power escalates in a huge hurry. I'm not say you can't do things inexpensive. I build a single turbo, blow thru deal a long time ago on the cheap. It made about 750hp and ran pretty good. For a while. Then all of those "cheap" parts started to find their limits. Good parts cost money. Good workmanship costs money. People with the ability to safely tune such an animal costs money. The magazines would have you believe that just anybody can build and tune a 1k hp turbo engine. It's not the case. Ask anyone who's actually been there and done it. Their success is usually preceeded by a trail of broken parts. I love the hot rodding aspect of people trying to do things for themselves. It's cool and it's what keeps this sport alive. So don't take this wrong, but i have yet to see anybody that's inexperienced at doing a turbo system ever get it right. Brian makes a pretty good living fixing everybody's attempts at doing it. I fixed lots of broken parts on them, too. Again, this isn't meant to deter, but to inform. If you really want to do it, make sure you get information from someone you KNOW for a fact has done it successfully in the past. Not somebody's cousin's-brother's-uncle who heard you can or even some internet forum keyboard cowboy. Do your homework. Call shops that have cars that actually run and peform like their supposed to. If you do, even though the initial cost is going to be more,you'll be much happier in the long run. Ok, off my soapbox now.
shawn
 
#19 ·
Tuning isnt in the cost of a build...that is after. And $6k in AN fittings...195 fittings? pics? A twin 88mm 363 I would hope your making beyond 2000hp and like I said....$40k better put you there. This is why I asked about the $40k turbo setup and engine....Is it a 2000hp monster?

My current setup is dirt cheap. Turbos are far from rocket science. My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas and i might spend 1/8 of that, I do it all myself so even if I had someone do it, times it by 2 even.. still 1/4 of that $40k.
 
#23 ·
Welcome to the world of the crate engine..
where at one time was a price deal is now over priced and under powered.....

But hey, thats a living for them and they get rich from name dropping check writers.


one day this fella came up to me who had a tee shirt Co. that was having a hard time coming up with a new slogan.....

Have a nice day........
 
#25 ·
Actually quite a few people use the hot parts and the intercoolers that are dirt cheap off ebay....with the same results as those engines posted by D-man. The precision brand intercoolers are 5 times (if not more) more expensive and do the EXACT same thing and same quality. The only reason they still charge a m illion dollars is because dumb people are brainwashed into thinking "you get what you pay for".....wich is not always the case.
 
#27 ·
Tuning isnt in the cost of a build...that is after. And $6k in AN fittings...195 fittings? pics? A twin 88mm 363 I would hope your making beyond 2000hp and like I said....$40k better put you there. This is why I asked about the $40k turbo setup and engine....Is it a 2000hp monster?

My current setup is dirt cheap. Turbos are far from rocket science. My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas and i might spend 1/8 of that, I do it all myself so even if I had someone do it, times it by 2 even.. still 1/4 of that $40k.
With a mild tune it makes about 2200. With the big cam and full tune probably around 2700hp.

My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas
It does make it or it will/can make it. There's a big difference between the two. No offense, but if your doing it all your self, i'll believe it when i see it.

The precision brand intercoolers are 5 times (if not more) more expensive and do the EXACT same thing and same quality.
Um. Not even close. Better do a little better reasearch.

One of the mock up/build photos-


What justifies their prices is the amount of R & D time they have into their PROVEN combinations, the select parts they use and the clearances they use that they KNOW work.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done cheaper. I know better. But what you're paying for is "Peace of mind"...that you KNOW what it's gonna do when you turn the key. All of the guess work is done and there is no "Wondering what this combo will do?".. There's a lot of people that will obviously pay a little extra for that or none of these places would be in business.
You could also thank a lot of them for their R & D since a LOT of the blower/turbo pistons, piston ring development, cam designs, etc. all came from their hard work. Not to mention a lot of the other "Kits" are based off their proven combinations.
Exactly. I'm glad someone understands. :yes:
shawn
 
#28 ·
Exactly. I'm glad someone understands. :yes:
shawn
I've worked with a few pretty prominent builders in the past (and continue to when they need the extra hands) so I know how many hours are involved and how much time is swallowed up by ordering custom parts, sending them back for QC or minor tweeks, HOURS on the dyno, etc..

I get a lot of the same :eek: when I quote $800 to $1200 to completely wire a race car. :yes:
Figure the cost of the switch panels, fuse panel, wire and connectors, miscellaneous stuff like looms, clamps, heat shrink tubing, screws and/or rivets and zip ties and their isn't a lot left there for labor.:no:
See-ins how it can take 10 to 30 hours (depending on the complexity and amount of electronics), how much is the labor per hr?? I figure I'm pretty cheap!!:yes: Especially since that is all color coded wire and the job comes with a complete color coded schematic for future reference.. :D
But some people will always complain and insist on doing it themselves. They are the one's that get stuck paying the $80/hr labor rate for diagnostics and repair..:yes::rolleyes:
 
#29 ·
For those that don't know Shawn, he's a known quality engine builder and has built many racers bullits. When you are talking high quality, high horsepower, there's no "cheap" in the vocabulary from any quality engine builder.

As for wiring, I'd say $1,200 is a bargain! I usually do my own because I enjoy it, but it's very time consuming if you really take the time to bundle, crimp, solder, and shrink tube every connection. A good wiring job can make or break a race car in the long run, especially if you are using specialty ignition systems, multi retards, timing curves, multi stage nitrous or boost controllers, etc.
 
#35 ·
I've worked with a few pretty prominent builders in the past (and continue to when they need the extra hands) so I know how many hours are involved and how much time is swallowed up by ordering custom parts, sending them back for QC or minor tweeks, HOURS on the dyno, etc..

I get a lot of the same when I quote $800 to $1200 to completely wire a race car.
Figure the cost of the switch panels, fuse panel, wire and connectors, miscellaneous stuff like looms, clamps, heat shrink tubing, screws and/or rivets and zip ties and their isn't a lot left there for labor.
See-ins how it can take 10 to 30 hours (depending on the complexity and amount of electronics), how much is the labor per hr?? I figure I'm pretty cheap!! Especially since that is all color coded wire and the job comes with a complete color coded schematic for future reference..
But some people will always complain and insist on doing it themselves. They are the one's that get stuck paying the $80/hr labor rate for diagnostics and repair..
Exactly. Again. :)

For those that don't know Shawn, he's a known quality engine builder and has built many racers bullits. When you are talking high quality, high horsepower, there's no "cheap" in the vocabulary from any quality engine builder.
Thanks Mike! Hopefully we'll see that new car of yours in the paintshop soon!

It will. with ease. 1000 is really easy with todays technology.
This is where myself and Macy get to make extra money. People think it's "easy". Here's the las warning. NOTHING about making 1k hp at the tires is easy. Only the person that's never done it, thinks that.

I have seen results. Sure some of the ebay stuff might be junk, but some of it works just as good.
That's not what you'll be thinking about the time you have an injector get a little plugged and that thing gives a little cough. You'll find out just exactly what that $.10 an hour Chinese employee knows about welding aluminum. They also don't "work" as well either.

a guy on the chevelles boards sells 670hp 505 cid big blocks, longblock for $6500
Is this the same guy that just went to prison for using his companies credit card to buy all the parts, then resold them? I could sell them for that, too, if was making 100% profit on all my labor and parts.
shawn
 
#36 ·
Is this the same guy that just went to prison for using his companies credit card to buy all the parts, then resold them? I could sell them for that, too, if was making 100% profit on all my labor and parts.
shawn
no, you are thinking robert1320 on theturboforums board. Im talking about vortecpro on the chevelles board.

its all relative.

cheap, fast, reliable, pick 2 lol
 
#37 ·
how to build cheap Hp......

copy what major builders have spent decades developing... buy the knock off china parts that u.s. manufactures spent hundreds of thousands of dollars developing.... bolt it all together with off shore arp knock off bolts..... and have fun.. till the real deal lines up beside ya.. then ya loose....



Or scrounge around like I did. for my victor JR heads they were brand new with a full CNC port work and pay 1100.00 for them ( was used for a mockup).... my holley carb i spent 75. for and bought billet base plate and proform/quick fuel body... a brand new MSD billet distributor for 125.00.. scat 4340 bushed, cap screw, ibeams 200.00, eagle std. .010 crank 109.00, victor jr intake 100.00, probe 2618 pistons, 350.00...

just a bit of scrounging...
 
#39 ·
If you were to put the same 14 degree head on a gen1 sbc(little chief symmetrical port) as is used on the gen3,(cathedral port) the gen 1 would out power the gen3....

I see the wheels turning.... a gen 1 has 5 bolts per cylinder, where as the gen3 has 4 bolts per cylinder..... no matter what... the GEN1 would take more boost, more N2O, more turbo, more Roots, more, more, more, than the gen3.... the gen1 head seals better than a gen3 there by not lifting the head or pushing a gasket as is prone to ANY 4 BOLT per cylinder ENGINE... and its not the new tec stuff your playing with its very old..... low angle valve have been in play for years... MOPAR 340 as 12 degree heads in 1967. that why they could contend with SBC in the day...........

and dont throw that 2500.00 LSX block with 6 bolts at me... I didnt throw a rocket block at you...
 
#41 ·
You sound like a pesemist. The ease of doing one task is different from person to person. For you to say NOTHING is easy makes me think you tell people this often so you get their business. Not saying you do this, but ive had several places and people tell me stuff wouldnt work..."oh you cant do that yourself"....etc. Only to learn myself how to do it and I was right.
You can get 600hp out of a relatively stock L92 with a cam swap today. Yea you might not have been able to do that 3+ years ago. Welcome to today.
I'm not a pessimist. I'm honest. Big difference. If they're in my shop, it's because they can't or won't do it themselves. If they can do it themselves, their's no reason for them to be there, right? Unless they feel they need to have their ego stroked by arguing with me. I don't have time to waste, and my customers don't have money to waste, chasing dreams. When someone brings me a pile of junk, i tell them it's a pile of junk. Who wants to waste money on something might work, and risk it all in the process? My customers don't, and i don't want my name on something that is a grenade with the pin pulled. If you want to waste your money on Chinese parts, go ahead, but that broken import impeller will do all kinds of nice stuff to the inside of an engine. I also didn't say NOTHING is easy. I said in making 1k hp to rear tires on pump gas, nothing is easy. Once again, big difference. Of course since you've already done it, like i have, you already know that. Oh, that's right, you haven't. If you do it all yourself and succeed, congratulations. You'll be the only one i've ever seen that doesn't do it for a living.
You keep referencing Gen 3 stuff, like it's the be all end all and nobody understands. That your so far ahead of the curve. I don't see anybody arguing the fact that you can make easier power with one. Just don't think your comparing apples to apples,though. I do consulting and development for manufacter's, so the stuff that i work on is things you haven't ever seen yet. So i guess, welcome to tomorrow.
Believe me, i'm not talking about "good deals". I like them just like everyone else. But good deals like Veno listed, on quality parts is much different that buying import junk.
 
#43 ·
picked up a mag today.

carbureted
big inch, 496 CID
12.5:1 compression
HUGE 270s/280s @50 cam
AFR 325 heads.

THIS THING WAS NICE, and it made some AWESOME POWER. It also held on to the torque DAMN well. Sure, it wouldnt be the most streetable vehicle in the world and may need a splash of race gas, but the torque was flat and stayed strong.
this bad boy ended up making 780hp at 6700rpms


















then I picked up another mag with a build that represents the future I see

it was a
fuel injected
small block, 400cid, ls motor
9.5:1 compression
240s/250s @ 50 cam
28 psi boost thru twin 88mm turbos
this one made 2,050hp and the builder said would make 2500hp in kill mode.

These fuel injected ls, 1000 to 2000hp builds are getting cheaper all the time and with forced induction its almost too easy to make the power. Now try to do it na and it would definitely cost 40k minimum,like the 8xx cid engine someone posted a few days ago.
 
#44 ·
picked up a mag today.

carbureted
big inch, 496 CID
12.5:1 compression
HUGE 270s/280s @50 cam
AFR 325 heads.

THIS THING WAS NICE, and it made some AWESOME POWER. It also held on to the torque DAMN well. Sure, it wouldnt be the most streetable vehicle in the world and may need a splash of race gas, but the torque was flat and stayed strong.
this bad boy ended up making 780hp at 6700rpms



then I picked up another mag with a build that represents the future I see

it was a
fuel injected
small block, 400cid, ls motor
9.5:1 compression
240s/250s @ 50 cam
28 psi boost thru twin 88mm turbos
this one made 2,050hp and the builder said would make 2500hp in kill mode.

These fuel injected ls, 1000 to 2000hp builds are getting cheaper all the time and with forced induction its almost too easy to make the power. Now try to do it na and it would definitely cost 40k minimum,like the 8xx cid engine someone posted a few days ago.
Actually theres quite a few 400+ cubed LS engines with unported L92 heads and stock intakes making 600-750hp. You can get a 400-441 LS shortblock from a number of reputable race shops for around $4k. Stock L92 heads can be had for around $700ish. they are $300 bare new. You could have one wild engine for $10k. Even if you bought a set of $5k All-Pro heads and an LSX block, $20k is on the slight high side.....but $40k. ??? where and how?....unless your throwing all that at it and a killer twin turbo going for 2000+hp.
 
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