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Old 30th-November-2008, 02:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Pwrtrip75 View Post
yea...I'd just like to know the breakdown of a $40k twin turbo 406 and the power it puts out.
Id like to see the build up price sheet also. And Im not even saying you CANT stuff 40k of parts into an engine. But if yer a builder yer not gonna pay list for parts. And labor can be a significant part of that.

So if its just parts costs, then that sounds steep. But if its out the door cost to a customer, yeah, I can see it, easily.

And for 40 grand I could see alot of folks here making a pretty good X-mas list of parts. That will buy you a 2500hp engine anytime.

Oh, I guess reality just rang the door bell, do I answer?? Do you put a 40k engine in a Nova. No. I wouldnt and dont know anyone that would.

Now a money making rocket for the track, yeah!! But I wouldnt use a Nova body. And thats all it would be. A carbon fiber body on a complete race chassis.

My engine is about 10k complete. And its a mild SBC. Nothing special. Stuff starts adding up but quick.

But I would love to have a 40k engine. Hell, would love to see 40k LOL What fun.. JR
 
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Old 30th-November-2008, 04:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Pwrtrip75 View Post
some quality stuff is cheap
I guess it all is based on your definition of "cheap" I haven't found anything on our race car that's "cheap" except tie wraps. There's also a huge difference between just "building" something and buiding it and having it last under extreme conditions. My 600hp Pro Street engine is far from a cheap build but hitting it with 700-800hp worth of nitrous like we do on the race engine and it would be history in seconds.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 02:43 AM   #18
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I have thought about it...thats why I ask. Aftermarket block/heads, all forged parts...you could blow $10k on. And you probably could blow another $10k on a twin turbo setup. I dont see how you can blow $40k though. $20k on a engine and turbo setup you should be able to make 2000HP.
Not even close. I could put together the list of cost on a project that myself and Brian Macy (TurboNova) just colaborated on, but i'd probably wear out my keyboard. Most people just don't have a clue as to what it takes to build, from scratch, somthing that makes that kind of power. The project that we are doing is a twin 88mm, efi, alky, 363" sb Ford. As of right now (and we are redoing some of it) it has 195 an fittings and 120ft of hose. That was about $6k there. At three injectors per cylinder to feed enough fuel, a custom computer to drive the injectors, custom manufacturing of each and every part that goes with it and you can see how the cost to build that kind of power escalates in a huge hurry. I'm not say you can't do things inexpensive. I build a single turbo, blow thru deal a long time ago on the cheap. It made about 750hp and ran pretty good. For a while. Then all of those "cheap" parts started to find their limits. Good parts cost money. Good workmanship costs money. People with the ability to safely tune such an animal costs money. The magazines would have you believe that just anybody can build and tune a 1k hp turbo engine. It's not the case. Ask anyone who's actually been there and done it. Their success is usually preceeded by a trail of broken parts. I love the hot rodding aspect of people trying to do things for themselves. It's cool and it's what keeps this sport alive. So don't take this wrong, but i have yet to see anybody that's inexperienced at doing a turbo system ever get it right. Brian makes a pretty good living fixing everybody's attempts at doing it. I fixed lots of broken parts on them, too. Again, this isn't meant to deter, but to inform. If you really want to do it, make sure you get information from someone you KNOW for a fact has done it successfully in the past. Not somebody's cousin's-brother's-uncle who heard you can or even some internet forum keyboard cowboy. Do your homework. Call shops that have cars that actually run and peform like their supposed to. If you do, even though the initial cost is going to be more,you'll be much happier in the long run. Ok, off my soapbox now.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 08:32 AM   #19
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Not even close. I could put together the list of cost on a project that myself and Brian Macy (TurboNova) just colaborated on, but i'd probably wear out my keyboard. Most people just don't have a clue as to what it takes to build, from scratch, somthing that makes that kind of power. The project that we are doing is a twin 88mm, efi, alky, 363" sb Ford. As of right now (and we are redoing some of it) it has 195 an fittings and 120ft of hose. That was about $6k there. At three injectors per cylinder to feed enough fuel, a custom computer to drive the injectors, custom manufacturing of each and every part that goes with it and you can see how the cost to build that kind of power escalates in a huge hurry. I'm not say you can't do things inexpensive. I build a single turbo, blow thru deal a long time ago on the cheap. It made about 750hp and ran pretty good. For a while. Then all of those "cheap" parts started to find their limits. Good parts cost money. Good workmanship costs money. People with the ability to safely tune such an animal costs money. The magazines would have you believe that just anybody can build and tune a 1k hp turbo engine. It's not the case. Ask anyone who's actually been there and done it. Their success is usually preceeded by a trail of broken parts. I love the hot rodding aspect of people trying to do things for themselves. It's cool and it's what keeps this sport alive. So don't take this wrong, but i have yet to see anybody that's inexperienced at doing a turbo system ever get it right. Brian makes a pretty good living fixing everybody's attempts at doing it. I fixed lots of broken parts on them, too. Again, this isn't meant to deter, but to inform. If you really want to do it, make sure you get information from someone you KNOW for a fact has done it successfully in the past. Not somebody's cousin's-brother's-uncle who heard you can or even some internet forum keyboard cowboy. Do your homework. Call shops that have cars that actually run and peform like their supposed to. If you do, even though the initial cost is going to be more,you'll be much happier in the long run. Ok, off my soapbox now.
shawn

Tuning isnt in the cost of a build...that is after. And $6k in AN fittings...195 fittings? pics? A twin 88mm 363 I would hope your making beyond 2000hp and like I said....$40k better put you there. This is why I asked about the $40k turbo setup and engine....Is it a 2000hp monster?

My current setup is dirt cheap. Turbos are far from rocket science. My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas and i might spend 1/8 of that, I do it all myself so even if I had someone do it, times it by 2 even.. still 1/4 of that $40k.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 09:11 AM   #20
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Think about it like this....How many B.S. crate motors are going for over $8000-$10,000??
Now think about how many engine shops are selling complete engines for $20k-$30k??
Now add the turbos and plumbing and hardware...
Remember, there's a pretty good handful of standard 23* heads out there that once you install an extra $1000-$1500 worth of Titanium valves and another $2000 for the custom big named port work will put you in the $5k range JUST IN THE HEADS!! Now add another $500-$750 for the port work on the intake (unless it's a sheetmetal )...
Heads...They have come a long way. And you can either pay for someone name that says they work, or you can pay for just ones that work. If you pay that much you better have a 2000+hp rocket ship.
Example of new stuff.. A set of trick flow heads can be had for $2k that flow 275 and a set of Stock GM L92 heads with the same good parts can be had for $1k that flow 325 untouched. A couple years ago they were not available.

Research and knowledge replaces high priced parts. I just been reading a lot of peoples builds and am blown away at some of them. They spend a ton extra because they dont bother to research anything (mostly on other sites).

Theres a place that makes turbo "kits" and what they include is factory truck manifolds (lsx style) and a basic Y-pipe from the manifolds to the turbo. And a down pipe from the turbo down. This is called the "hot side". They want like $1500. for this hot side and people are like...WOW thats awesome. This is something your local exhaust shop can do for $200. Heres a few pics. And....people have made 1500hp with kits like this. Considerably less than $40k. I think it looks like crap though. This is not my stuff....just pics i found.



For $3700 you get (i think its a rip off)
TC76 Turbo Setup
-6.0L Manifolds
-Mild Steel 2.5” Charge Pipes with a T4 Flange and Integrated Waste Gate mount and narrow band O2 bungs
-Mild Steel 3” Down Pipe with a Wide band O2 bung
-Turbonetics TC76mm Turbo
-TurboSmart 38mm Waste Gate
-TurboSmart Blow Off Valve
-Front Mount Intercooler 31”x12”x4”
-Stainless steel 3” Intercooler Pipes with Integrated BOV mount
-4 Ply Silicone Couplings
-T-Bolt Clamps
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Last edited by Pwrtrip75; 1st-December-2008 at 09:21 AM.
 
Old 1st-December-2008, 12:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Pwrtrip75 View Post
Heads...They have come a long way. And you can either pay for someone name that says they work, or you can pay for just ones that work. If you pay that much you better have a 2000+hp rocket ship.
Example of new stuff.. A set of trick flow heads can be had for $2k that flow 275 and a set of Stock GM L92 heads with the same good parts can be had for $1k that flow 325 untouched. A couple years ago they were not available.

Research and knowledge replaces high priced parts. I just been reading a lot of peoples builds and am blown away at some of them. They spend a ton extra because they dont bother to research anything (mostly on other sites).

Theres a place that makes turbo "kits" and what they include is factory truck manifolds (lsx style) and a basic Y-pipe from the manifolds to the turbo. And a down pipe from the turbo down. This is called the "hot side". They want like $1500. for this hot side and people are like...WOW thats awesome. This is something your local exhaust shop can do for $200. Heres a few pics. And....people have made 1500hp with kits like this. Considerably less than $40k. I think it looks like crap though. This is not my stuff....just pics i found.



For $3700 you get (i think its a rip off)
TC76 Turbo Setup
-6.0L Manifolds
-Mild Steel 2.5 Charge Pipes with a T4 Flange and Integrated Waste Gate mount and narrow band O2 bungs
-Mild Steel 3 Down Pipe with a Wide band O2 bung
-Turbonetics TC76mm Turbo
-TurboSmart 38mm Waste Gate
-TurboSmart Blow Off Valve
-Front Mount Intercooler 31x12x4
-Stainless steel 3 Intercooler Pipes with Integrated BOV mount
-4 Ply Silicone Couplings
-T-Bolt Clamps
Ok......understand we're not talking about what someone can do for themselves. We're talking about "Turn-key" deals...
It's obvious you haven't dealt with any big-time engine builders. Here's just a few examples:
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/p...dds_406_tt.pdf
(and that's for a DAILY DRIVER......NOT a full race set-up.)
http://treracingengines.com/treenginespackage.shtml
(And those are naturally aspirated)
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate%2...GED%20440.html
(And that doesn't include ANY compressors, intercoolers, fuel systems, etc..)
This one does..
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate%2...%20ENGINE.html
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Old 1st-December-2008, 12:49 PM   #22
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Ok......understand we're not talking about what someone can do for themselves. We're talking about "Turn-key" deals...
It's obvious you haven't dealt with any big-time engine builders. Here's just a few examples:
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/p...dds_406_tt.pdf
(and that's for a DAILY DRIVER......NOT a full race set-up.)
http://treracingengines.com/treenginespackage.shtml
(And those are naturally aspirated)
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate%2...GED%20440.html
(And that doesn't include ANY compressors, intercoolers, fuel systems, etc..)
This one does..
http://www.bennettracing.com/Crate%2...%20ENGINE.html

What justifies those prices though? Do they send it to Germany and have the oldest slowest person assemble it? The first link to me looks $20k over priced.....maybe $15k. Its nothing special put together. I guess if there are uneducated people out there who will pay, theres people out there to take advantage of it. Just because you can find high priced stuff doesnt mean by any neans its worth it.
Theres maybe $3-4k in the turbo setup on that....thats if they are ball bearing turbos. Thats just insane.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 01:07 PM   #23
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Welcome to the world of the crate engine..
where at one time was a price deal is now over priced and under powered.....

But hey, thats a living for them and they get rich from name dropping check writers.


one day this fella came up to me who had a tee shirt Co. that was having a hard time coming up with a new slogan.....

Have a nice day........
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Old 1st-December-2008, 01:40 PM   #24
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Ok so whos going to buy the ebay setup and report back with a dyno sheet?

I think its all china stuff.

Heres the same kit again.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy...mZ350069066954
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Old 1st-December-2008, 02:33 PM   #25
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Actually quite a few people use the hot parts and the intercoolers that are dirt cheap off ebay....with the same results as those engines posted by D-man. The precision brand intercoolers are 5 times (if not more) more expensive and do the EXACT same thing and same quality. The only reason they still charge a m illion dollars is because dumb people are brainwashed into thinking "you get what you pay for".....wich is not always the case.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 02:54 PM   #26
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What justifies those prices though? Do they send it to Germany and have the oldest slowest person assemble it? The first link to me looks $20k over priced.....maybe $15k. Its nothing special put together. I guess if there are uneducated people out there who will pay, theres people out there to take advantage of it. Just because you can find high priced stuff doesnt mean by any neans its worth it.
Theres maybe $3-4k in the turbo setup on that....thats if they are ball bearing turbos. Thats just insane.
What justifies their prices is the amount of R & D time they have into their PROVEN combinations, the select parts they use and the clearances they use that they KNOW work.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done cheaper. I know better. But what you're paying for is "Peace of mind"...that you KNOW what it's gonna do when you turn the key. All of the guess work is done and there is no "Wondering what this combo will do?".. There's a lot of people that will obviously pay a little extra for that or none of these places would be in business.
You could also thank a lot of them for their R & D since a LOT of the blower/turbo pistons, piston ring development, cam designs, etc. all came from their hard work. Not to mention a lot of the other "Kits" are based off their proven combinations.
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Old 1st-December-2008, 07:32 PM   #27
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Tuning isnt in the cost of a build...that is after. And $6k in AN fittings...195 fittings? pics? A twin 88mm 363 I would hope your making beyond 2000hp and like I said....$40k better put you there. This is why I asked about the $40k turbo setup and engine....Is it a 2000hp monster?

My current setup is dirt cheap. Turbos are far from rocket science. My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas and i might spend 1/8 of that, I do it all myself so even if I had someone do it, times it by 2 even.. still 1/4 of that $40k.
With a mild tune it makes about 2200. With the big cam and full tune probably around 2700hp.

Quote:
My new setup will make 1000whp on pump gas
It does make it or it will/can make it. There's a big difference between the two. No offense, but if your doing it all your self, i'll believe it when i see it.

Quote:
The precision brand intercoolers are 5 times (if not more) more expensive and do the EXACT same thing and same quality.
Um. Not even close. Better do a little better reasearch.

One of the mock up/build photos-


Quote:
What justifies their prices is the amount of R & D time they have into their PROVEN combinations, the select parts they use and the clearances they use that they KNOW work.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done cheaper. I know better. But what you're paying for is "Peace of mind"...that you KNOW what it's gonna do when you turn the key. All of the guess work is done and there is no "Wondering what this combo will do?".. There's a lot of people that will obviously pay a little extra for that or none of these places would be in business.
You could also thank a lot of them for their R & D since a LOT of the blower/turbo pistons, piston ring development, cam designs, etc. all came from their hard work. Not to mention a lot of the other "Kits" are based off their proven combinations.
Exactly. I'm glad someone understands.
shawn
 
Old 1st-December-2008, 07:56 PM   #28
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Exactly. I'm glad someone understands.
shawn
I've worked with a few pretty prominent builders in the past (and continue to when they need the extra hands) so I know how many hours are involved and how much time is swallowed up by ordering custom parts, sending them back for QC or minor tweeks, HOURS on the dyno, etc..

I get a lot of the same when I quote $800 to $1200 to completely wire a race car.
Figure the cost of the switch panels, fuse panel, wire and connectors, miscellaneous stuff like looms, clamps, heat shrink tubing, screws and/or rivets and zip ties and their isn't a lot left there for labor.
See-ins how it can take 10 to 30 hours (depending on the complexity and amount of electronics), how much is the labor per hr?? I figure I'm pretty cheap!! Especially since that is all color coded wire and the job comes with a complete color coded schematic for future reference..
But some people will always complain and insist on doing it themselves. They are the one's that get stuck paying the $80/hr labor rate for diagnostics and repair..
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Old 1st-December-2008, 10:35 PM   #29
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For those that don't know Shawn, he's a known quality engine builder and has built many racers bullits. When you are talking high quality, high horsepower, there's no "cheap" in the vocabulary from any quality engine builder.

As for wiring, I'd say $1,200 is a bargain! I usually do my own because I enjoy it, but it's very time consuming if you really take the time to bundle, crimp, solder, and shrink tube every connection. A good wiring job can make or break a race car in the long run, especially if you are using specialty ignition systems, multi retards, timing curves, multi stage nitrous or boost controllers, etc.
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Old 2nd-December-2008, 12:27 AM   #30
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Im gonna jump in here just because I feel like throwing in my 2 cents,

but Im pretty darn sure that 2000hp can be made for 5k, or 50k.

FAST, CHEAP, RELIABLE - Pick two
 
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