Flat Tappet Warning! Lack of Zddp and modern oils - Page 30 - Chevy Nova Forum
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Old 18th-May-2012, 11:22 AM   #436
locashlester
 
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Being new to the site I've been bumping around and came across this thread. I just purchased my first Nova but have been a VW powered drag racer for many years. VW's have had the same problem and have resorted to many different things to try and combat flat cams. One is LAT oil, the guys behind the oil are VW drag racers and were sick of all the problems. The VW racing community has had great success using the oil and it has been picked up by almost every kind of racing out there.
Lester

http://www.latracingoils.com/synthetic-racing-oils
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Old 1st-September-2012, 11:50 PM   #437
Scottie Tae

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Trying a new additive

I am going to try Oil Extreme, they have develop some great oil additives and I know the owner so I am planning on adding it to my 62 and give it a go. There seems to be a lot of great things said about it so I figure it cannot hurt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by veno View Post
Hi fellow Nova nuts...... There has been some discussions for the last 6 or 7 months, maybe longer about which oils contain enough ZDDP for flat tappet cams.

Repinter just quoted me on my conversation with Valvoline... and has doubt, I too have doubt... so I am in search of definitive information on oils that will suit the needs of the flat tappet cam masses....

I have done some searching for the last month or so and have seen various opinions/posts on other fourms but never definitive answers as to which oils are safe for flat tappet cams. I have looked at product data sheets.. some times they read like stereo instructions.... not very help full....

There are very expensive oils out there that claim to have over 1800 PPM of ZDDP. like Champion, Joe Gibbs, and one other that escapes me now. but I wonder about the oil as suited for street use as they all say RACE ONLY.

My own mission has now become to find these oils that are safe to use in High lift, high spring rate cams of flat tappet design for street use.

So far I have identified 4 possible oil manufactures,,,, I will contact them further and ask to speak to a authoritative person for definitive info regarding flat tappet cams and the levels of ZDDP.... so that I may inform my fellow brethren in flat camdom hood if their product is safe to use.

what i would really like to find is am old API rating of S/E or S/G

It looks like one synthetic and 3 conventional oils may meet the needs of our engines....

I have been getting a good bit of education on oil additives and their use and safe levels for protection of flat cams.

I will post up as info becomes available.....
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Old 11th-December-2012, 10:58 AM   #438
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Didn't read through all the post but found this on Mobil Synthetic;

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
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Old 25th-December-2012, 10:45 AM   #439
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oils

Quote:
Originally Posted by veno View Post
Hi fellow Nova nuts...... There has been some discussions for the last 6 or 7 months, maybe longer about which oils contain enough ZDDP for flat tappet cams.

Repinter just quoted me on my conversation with Valvoline... and has doubt, I too have doubt... so I am in search of definitive information on oils that will suit the needs of the flat tappet cam masses....

I have done some searching for the last month or so and have seen various opinions/posts on other fourms but never definitive answers as to which oils are safe for flat tappet cams. I have looked at product data sheets.. some times they read like stereo instructions.... not very help full....

There are very expensive oils out there that claim to have over 1800 PPM of ZDDP. like Champion, Joe Gibbs, and one other that escapes me now. but I wonder about the oil as suited for street use as they all say RACE ONLY.

My own mission has now become to find these oils that are safe to use in High lift, high spring rate cams of flat tappet design for street use.

So far I have identified 4 possible oil manufactures,,,, I will contact them further and ask to speak to a authoritative person for definitive info regarding flat tappet cams and the levels of ZDDP.... so that I may inform my fellow brethren in flat camdom hood if their product is safe to use.

what i would really like to find is am old API rating of S/E or S/G

It looks like one synthetic and 3 conventional oils may meet the needs of our engines....

I have been getting a good bit of education on oil additives and their use and safe levels for protection of flat cams.

I will post up as info becomes available.....
Look up Schaafer oils on the internet, I'm not sure about that spelling, but a friend of mine is a ditributor ( Leo Kokley ) he did a oil comparrison test at my work. It cost a little more,but the friction quallities were untouchable with any brands we could produce even synthetics,but you can run several miles more before oil changes,. I think it has very high teflon substance,I think. He had a motor turning a little metal wheel running in oil with a metal bar attatched to put pressure on the wheel. Many brands were supplied by my co-workers,new unopened bottles,he asked me to assist with his demonstration because he could tell I worked out,I didn't know him at that time, I could stop his motor with any oil from the friction I was applying to this bar,but I couldn't even slow the motor down when he used his oil. It was hard to believe,but man it is good stuff,it's slicker than snot on a teflon pot. He sold us, we buy 55 gal. drums of his oil., My son works for a concrete cutting co. and he said the only oil they could use in their concrete cutting saw was Schaafer because it would over heat with anything else. I hope I was some help. I heard oil co.s were made to take zink out of their products recently by the E P A
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Old 25th-December-2012, 10:50 AM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova Cane View Post
Look up Schaafer oils on the internet, I'm not sure about that spelling, but a friend of mine is a ditributor ( Leo Kokley ) he did a oil comparrison test at my work. It cost a little more,but the friction quallities were untouchable with any brands we could produce even synthetics,but you can run several miles more before oil changes,. I think it has very high teflon substance,I think. He had a motor turning a little metal wheel running in oil with a metal bar attatched to put pressure on the wheel. Many brands were supplied by my co-workers,new unopened bottles,he asked me to assist with his demonstration because he could tell I worked out,I didn't know him at that time, I could stop his motor with any oil from the friction I was applying to this bar,but I couldn't even slow the motor down when he used his oil. It was hard to believe,but man it is good stuff,it's slicker than snot on a teflon pot. He sold us, we buy 55 gal. drums of his oil., My son works for a concrete cutting co. and he said the only oil they could use in their concrete cutting saw was Schaafer because it would over heat with anything else. I hope I was some help. I heard oil co.s were made to take zink out of their products recently by the E P A

good information but I believe if you read more of the thread you will see you missed the point of what "ZDDP" "Zink" is for on Flat tappet cams. There are oils available with ZDDP for flat tappet cams.

FYI
AL
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Old 25th-December-2012, 06:34 PM   #441
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Kendall-GT-1-HP- 10w/40w

]http://http://www.petroleumservicecompany.com/kendall-gt-1-hp-w-ti-10w-40.html[/URL]all-gt-1-hp-w-ti-10w-40.html

I think this may be a safe oil for us to use
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Old 26th-December-2012, 09:02 PM   #442
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BradPenn

I know this has been mentioned before, but it's worth saying again. Brad Penn motor oil is the old Kendall Oil Company under knew management. Their products are all 100% pure Pennsylvania grade motor oil formulated for high performance engines. They understand ZDDP. Bradford, Pennsylvania is their home. Brad Penn is manufactured by American Refining Group Inc., 77 North Kendall Avenue, Bradford, PA 16701.

Here is a quote from the Brad Penn web site (link below).

In addition to our unique base oil cut, increased concentration of “zinc” (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate a.k.a. ZDDP) provides outstanding anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing either ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams.

BTW, I just had my Inline 250 completely blueprinted by Portland Engine Rebuilders, and they provide BradPenn break-in oil. They specifically state that the use of any other oil during the break-in of a flat tappet engine will void the warranty. Antique and High Performance engines are their specialty.

http://www.penngrade1.com/
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Old 2nd-January-2013, 09:07 AM   #443
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I know that this is an old thread, and I have read, and reread it a couple of times. But not being an engine builder or rebuilder, I still have a question.
First off, I have an all stock L48 motor with about 70K miles on it in a '71. It's in Wisconsin, and stored for the winters. So my driving temps would be maybe 32-90's.
From all of the info provided, it looks like the Valvoline VR1 racing oil is more than adequate for my application. So have been considering using the Valvoline VR1 racing oil, but not sure of the weight. It appears to be widely available in 20W50, and lesser so in 10W30 or 30W.
Is 20W50 too heavy for near freezing temps, and 10W30 too light for higher temps? And straight 30W too heavy for the low temps, and too light for the higher temps?
I'm leaning towards the 20W50 simply because of availability, but don't want to "hurt" the motor.
I know that any suggestions would be opinions, but thanks for any insight on this.
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Old 2nd-January-2013, 12:41 PM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '71 Nova SS View Post
I know that this is an old thread, and I have read, and reread it a couple of times. But not being an engine builder or rebuilder, I still have a question.
First off, I have an all stock L48 motor with about 70K miles on it in a '71. It's in Wisconsin, and stored for the winters. So my driving temps would be maybe 32-90's.
From all of the info provided, it looks like the Valvoline VR1 racing oil is more than adequate for my application. So have been considering using the Valvoline VR1 racing oil, but not sure of the weight. It appears to be widely available in 20W50, and lesser so in 10W30 or 30W.
Is 20W50 too heavy for near freezing temps, and 10W30 too light for higher temps? And straight 30W too heavy for the low temps, and too light for the higher temps?
I'm leaning towards the 20W50 simply because of availability, but don't want to "hurt" the motor.
I know that any suggestions would be opinions, but thanks for any insight on this.
Sounds like you could use the 10W40. Brad Penn comes in that grade, I've been using it for about 4 yrs. now.
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Old 3rd-January-2013, 05:59 PM   #445
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Brad Penn correspondance

I had a very informative conversation with a Ken Tyger of American Refining Group, Inc. this afternoon. They are the makers of Brad Penn oils. This is posted here with his permission. Feel free to contact him with concerns or questions.


Frank,



It was great speaking with you this afternoon. Please allow me this opportunity to share with you some thoughts from our discussion earlier.



Regarding the lack of American Petroleum Institute(API) Service Symbol “Donut” and Certification Mark “Starburst”, there is no need to formally register a product with API since there is no intention of putting a ‘donut’ on the bottle. To further explain…an end user/customer will not find an API Service Symbol (Donut) on any of our Brad Penn® Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Engine Oils due to one very specific reason: their enhanced AW (anti-wear) chemistry. This formulation enhancement meant that specific component levels, specifically Zn (Zinc) and P (Phosphorus), exceeded the limits of the API platform they were designed on. However, these enhanced formulations still had the performance of the aforementioned in terms of detergency/dispersant, anti-oxidation, rust and corrosion. If we were to “license” our Brad Penn® Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Engine Oils, our Zn and P levels would be limited (guidelined) to meet specific API specifications. This approach meant that the Brad Penn® Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Engine Oils do not conform to API and ILSAC standards. We certainly have other oils in our product line “licensed” and carrying the API donut. The Certification Mark “Starburst” I referenced in our conversation identifies the oil as meeting the current International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) engine protection standard: ILSAC GF-5/”Resource Conserving”. Engine oils meeting this standard will carry the “Starburst” as well as the latest API Service category SN.



It is important to mention that the Brad Penn® Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Engine oils were designed and tailored specifically for the needs of the classic, muscle and street rod “legacy” cars that incorporate a flat tappet cam. They are NOT intended/recommended for applications equipped w/ catalytic converters (post-1975). When an application utilizes pollution control equipment….such as a catalytic converter….the oil must be formulated to be compatible with the exhaust catalyst (lower phosphorous to avoid catalyst ‘poisoning’). Modern passenger car engine oils are a complex mixture of additives and base oils that are required to provide good engine lubrication and increased fuel economy while reducing emissions. They accomplish these goals in a number of ways including utilizing lighter viscosity base oils, higher concentrations of friction modifiers and reduced levels of certain functional additives. Unfortunately, these same characteristics can have a negative effect upon oil in numerous applications. Stricter emission requirements have caused the need to reduce the amount and type of anti-wear agent used in the oil (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) in order to lower the oil’s phosphorous content and help prevent catalytic converter ‘poisoning’. This has raised questions about the ability of newer engine oils to provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts.



In addition, the additive element that is controlled in motor oils is phosphorous, not zinc. High levels of phosphorous in motor oils are detrimental to the components of the catalytic converters used on today's modern vehicles to reduce emissions. Therefore, to minimize catalyst 'poisoning' the American Petroleum Institute (API), the very organization that sets the standards for engine oil quality and performance, has established limits on the concentration of phosphorous in engine oils designed for use in vehicles equipped with catalytic converters. Zinc and phosphorous are integral elements in the anti-wear additive used in motor oils so when the phosphorous concentration is reduced the zinc also is reduced. However, because of the chemical composition of ZDDP, the zinc concentration in motor oil will typically be slightly higher than the phosphorous concentration. Oils meeting the most current API 'SN' category that also meet the ILSAC GF-5 classification and are considered 'Recourse Conserving' have phosphorous concentrations that are limited to 0.08% wt maximum (800 ppm). In comparison, the unlicensed Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Engine oils have a typical phosphorous concentration of 0.140% (1400 ppm).



So you see Frank…modern engine oils have seen a drastic reduction in the amount of AW chemistry…mainly to protect and extend the life of the catalytic converter. Because of today’s emphasis on fuel economy and emissions, modern engine oils have been “updated” accordingly. Although these very same modern oils are designed to be “back-applicable” to the older legacy applications, that doesn’t necessarily translate to being the “right” oil. This is specifically the reason why our Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils, with their enhanced AW chemistry and PA Grade Base Stock, are ideally suited to protect the flat tappet cams/engine components of the legacy, classic, pre-catalytic converter equipped cars (pre-1975).



I’m sure I have forgotten to address something we discussed. Please contact me if I can be of further assistance. In the meantime, please visit our website at www.penngrade1.com to learn about our company history, high performance product line and if interested, the many testimonials offered.



Regards,



Kenneth M. (Ken) Tyger, OMA I, OMA II

Oil Monitoring Analyst

Sr. Technical Services Rep.

American Refining Group, Inc.

77 North Kendall Ave.

Bradford, Pa. 16701

(814)-368-1210

ktyger@amref.com
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Old 3rd-January-2013, 07:30 PM   #446
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Amsoil tsb

Here's an older TSB from AMSOIL on the exact subject:
[IMG][/IMG]


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Old 3rd-April-2013, 04:09 PM   #447
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What are some thoughts on Castrol Egde 5w-50 "formulated for classic cars with flat tappet engines"? It says it has raised levels of zinc.
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Old 10th-September-2013, 09:45 PM   #448
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I'm running Rotella 15w40 in my 406.

Last edited by bdr; 10th-September-2013 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 10th-September-2013, 09:49 PM   #449
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I'm running Rotella 15w40 in my 406.
I use this ^^ and Mobil 1 in our race engine as per GM recommendations.
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Old 11th-September-2013, 07:50 AM   #450
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Quote:
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I'm running Rotella 15w40 in my 406.
Rotella no longer has ZDDP/phospheris, been removed for use of emissions on Diesel engines.

Al
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