The ultimate decision!!!

I'm trying to decide what would be better to buy for my 64' nova. The plan for my nova is to make it my daily driver which it already is. Also I plan on swapping an LS1 4l60e combo into the car so I need to consider exhaust and oil pan clearences. The car runs and drives great but 1964 suspension technology isn't the greatest so i've been thinking about what i'm going to replace the front suspension with. My options are as follows the first choice is to install the CPP mini subframe kit with an aftermarket sway bar kit. Or I could go with something like TCI or chris alston front clip. I've thought about the pros and cons about each setup but i'm starting to drift more towards spending the extra money to get the front clip. Anyways let me know what you think and any experince with each setup.

If you can weld and enjoy fabrication I went with the Checkered racing front clip for under $2000.00 If you have the big bucks the Chris Alston front clip is the favorite at over $4500.00 The Heidts and TCI are kind of in the middle and are both well made. The key is making sure the clip is ready to ship.:rolleyes: Any will make the ride and handling much better and under hood space greatly improves. Now you have to figure out which one fits your personality best. Good luck! ;);)

i'd say the lesser priced way ta go would be the CPP kit... but as you mentioned the LS and tranny combo presents it's own set of concerns... so i'd have to choose the clip which would free up some much needed room for the conversion...

I'd go with the CPP hands down. Of course I'm biased because I HATE the clips.

Also, the LS install with a stock clip is doable. I'm about a month away from doing it myself.

I went with the CPP for costs reasons and I don't regret it at all. As you can see if you search on "autocross", I have been REALLY happy with the CPP product.

As as side note, my alignment guy favors the CPP kit over any of the Mustang II conversions (read clip) out there. I'm not sure about all of his reasons, but he has begun recommending the CPP setup over the full clips, to his customers with 1st and 2nd gen Novas.

BTW... I see you're in Sonoma. I'm not far from you, so if you would like to check out the CPP kit in person, let me know.

Chuck

I'd go with the CPP hands down. Of course I'm biased because I HATE the clips.

You can add my sentiments to the CPP pile also. I think it opens another can of worms and limits your header options as well.

Signed,

Not a front-clip fan. ;)

So I guess I'll go ahead and open up a can of worms.
After market front clip:

I spend $1800.00 and I get new 11" disc brakes, Rack and pinion steering, Superior geometry, lighter unsprung weight, new aluminum coil-over shocks and springs, no bump steer, 100 Lbs lighter and more engine room.
Cpp Costs more, get less. What am I missing????:confused::confused::confused:

although the cpp kit is real nice, i have the same questioning as above

If you were going to be dropping an SBC then I would say go with the CCP but since you're going to be dropping in an LS1 you're going to need the room for the alternator, R & P, etc. so I would go with the clip.

John

+1 for aftermarket clip and here is a cheap LS1/4L60E.

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76671

So what is the difference in the cost of headers going to be for a new front clip vs. CPP??

I went with a Chassisworks clip and would do it again without hesitation. I'm using a big block & 5 speed, and their headers...everything fit perfectly and the quality of the parts is as good as it gets, especially the billet pieces. All hardware is polished buttonheads, the packaging is excellent, and instructions very clear...it's a no brainer to install...just my experience. I have their rear clip as well.

... but since you're going to be dropping in an LS1 you're going to need the room for the alternator, R & P, etc. so I would go with the clip.
John
I'd like to hear from those of you that have clips w/LS1 and what issues you have had - I'm not sure I've seen anyone report on that combo.

As for the stock frontend and LS1 - I have one in my 66 now. The alternator and A/C compressor fit w/o problem. I am experimenting with the Bill'sII rack and if I find it to suit my needs I'll probably go with it and the CPP LCA. Granted, I will then have to get discs and a dropped spindle but I'm pretty sure I can do all of that under $2K and retain the stock frontend.

UndercvrSS - sounds like you are doing something similar - would like to hear what your doing specifically. PM me if you'd like.

So I guess I'll go ahead and open up a can of worms.
After market front clip:

I spend $1800.00 and I get new 11" disc brakes, Rack and pinion steering, Superior geometry, lighter unsprung weight, new aluminum coil-over shocks and springs, no bump steer, 100 Lbs lighter and more engine room.
Cpp Costs more, get less. What am I missing????:confused::confused::confused:

Not sure how you think CPP's kit cost more. CPP's kit will install alot faster, and give the same end results. I've done many aftermarket clip conversions, since I used to work for one of the manufacturers. I've drivin both, and they both compare with each other. the clip requires you to realigned all your front sheet metal, replumb your front brake lines, you have to run a rear sump oil pan, which puts the pan behind your axle centerline making it easier to wipe it out. If you run 2" dropped spindles, the car still wont be as low as mine with the CPP kit, and the crossmember will only have about 3" of ground clearence. If you run a 15" front wheel with the dropped spindles the crossmember will be lower than the rim (dangerous). Weight transfer is another thing that you lose going to clip. The only advantage that I see is the addition of more under hood room.

Plus to look at one on a car, to see the rack, and crossmember hangin so low, it looks like crap.

Again, as I stated before, this is my opinion. Don't bash me for it. If it's your car, do what you want. This thread is asking opinions about both.

So I guess I'll go ahead and open up a can of worms.
After market front clip:

I spend $1800.00 and I get new 11" disc brakes, Rack and pinion steering, Superior geometry, lighter unsprung weight, new aluminum coil-over shocks and springs, no bump steer, 100 Lbs lighter and more engine room.
Cpp Costs more, get less. What am I missing????:confused::confused::confused:

You could buy the Chassis works kit for more money, and get all the parts up front, or you can buy the cheaper kits. You spend $1800 and then spend $2,000. Then you have a lot of work to do. The $1800 dolor kit does not include the steering column needed for 1962-1966 cars. You get none of the steering shafts, U-joints, and shaft supports. If the clip has narrowed rails, you get to buy new headers $800 and then take it to the exhaust shop again. You get to buy a new $400 starter that’s small enough to clear the new tight headers. You get to rewire and remount the battery. You need to cut the core support out of the old clip and fab it into the new clip. If you already had a V8 with headers and disc brakes, you get to throw them away, and the oil pan and pick up too. You get less wheel travel than the stock front end. And yes you do have bump steer.

The CPP Mini-subframe kit is totally different. If you already have the V8 in the car, just bolt in the kit, it usually takes 4 hours before you drive off to the alignment shop. The $399 includes everything you need to install it and more. Compared to a clip, it will give you more wheel travel, you can run a lower ride height, and has more ground clearance. Our 66 wagon rides on drop spindles and drop springs, the rocker panel at ride height is 3-3/4 inch off the ground.

The clips offer more room in the engine compartment, but are a lot more money, time to install, and effort. Both offer the same un-sprung weight. And the clips have less torsional rigidity than a stock front end. Yes I have data to support this. I only know a couple of people who have taken the time to accurately measure chassis twist before and after a clip install.

To summarize, use a clip if you need more room, other wise the extra cost and effort to install just doesn’t make sense to me.
:beer::beer::beer::):):)
Danny Nix
CPP

Our 66 wagon rides on drop spindles and drop springs, the rocker panel at ride height is 3-3/4 inch off the ground.

Danny Nix
CPP


How much ground clearance is there at the front cross member with it that low?

How much ground clearance is there at the front cross member with it that low?

The lowest point in the front is the sway bar, it is 2-1/4" off the ground. The crossmember is about 3-1/2" off the ground. These measurments could be a little off because the car is parked next to a curb, and it is hard to get under it in order to see the tape measure.


Danny Nix
CPP

Wow a lot of you really know what your talking about and it's good to hear all the real world experience with each set up. Let me tell you more about my car and why i'm considering each setup. My car has a straight 6 with a powerglide. I plan on bolting on the front suspension before I tear out the engine to swap it. The brakes on the car are 4 wheel manual drum with the original single resevoir master cylinder. So when some of you are saying that i'm going to have to get new headers and oil pan and a starter motor not all of that is going to apply to my situation. I'm asking this question now to find out if it would be worth it to go with a CPP kit annnnnnd then buy a front disc brake kit annnnnnnnnd then buy some other thing that I realize that I need. Or I could just buy a front clip which already has the disc brakes rack and pinion steering and can get me more clearance for the wheels and tires. So right now i'm still kind of split down the middle as far as choosing.

Wow a lot of you really know what your talking about and it's good to hear all the real world experience with each set up. Let me tell you more about my car and why i'm considering each setup. My car has a straight 6 with a powerglide. I plan on bolting on the front suspension before I tear out the engine to swap it. The brakes on the car are 4 wheel manual drum with the original single resevoir master cylinder. So when some of you are saying that i'm going to have to get new headers and oil pan and a starter motor not all of that is going to apply to my situation. I'm asking this question now to find out if it would be worth it to go with a CPP kit annnnnnd then buy a front disc brake kit annnnnnnnnd then buy some other thing that I realize that I need. Or I could just buy a front clip which already has the disc brakes rack and pinion steering and can get me more clearance for the wheels and tires. So right now i'm still kind of split down the middle as far as choosing.

If I read this right, you plan on keeping the straight 6 after the suspension upgrade? If so, you can't run a 6 with the front clip. You'd have to make your own custom mounts, as well as doe something with the oil pan. even then, you may not have enough hood clearence. CPP's kit does'nt present this issue.

If the clip has narrowed rails, you get to buy new headers $800 and then take it to the exhaust shop again. You need to cut the core support out of the old clip and fab it into the new clip. If you already had a V8 with headers and disc brakes, you get to throw them away, and the oil pan and pick up too. You get less wheel travel than the stock front end. And yes you do have bump steer.

The clips offer more room in the engine compartment, but are a lot more money, time to install, and effort. Both offer the same un-sprung weight. And the clips have less torsional rigidity than a stock front end. Yes I have data to support this. I only know a couple of people who have taken the time to accurately measure chassis twist before and after a clip install.

To summarize, use a clip if you need more room, other wise the extra cost and effort to install just doesn’t make sense to me.
:beer::beer::beer::):):)
Danny Nix
CPP

thank goodness you have an unbiased opinion :rolleyes:

You kinda missed the fact that some headers fit the narrowed frames, ...the core support comes off with a drill
& cold chisel ( NO CUTTING),& bolts back on...
& yes you do get to get rid of an inferior oiling system
& replace it with one more adept at high performance driving..... & you do get a suspension with nearly zero
bump steer over 6" of travel, brakes with 30 % less unsprung & rotating weight.

my observations are rather limited regarding chassis rigidness..... i jacked the car up at one frame corner with the stock front end, & the fender hit the door.
jacked up with a Chassisworks frame, no change in body gap.

Of couse, this my unbiased opinion.:)

The money you save on the CPP kit will be far less than what it will cost to have a set of custom headers made to fit the stock fenderwells.

thank goodness you have an unbiased opinion :rolleyes:

You kinda missed the fact that some headers fit the narrowed frames, ...the core support comes off with a drill
& cold chisel ( NO CUTTING),& bolts back on...
& yes you do get to get rid of an inferior oiling system
& replace it with one more adept at high performance driving..... & you do get a suspension with nearly zero
bump steer over 6" of travel, brakes with 30 % less unsprung & rotating weight.

my observations are rather limited regarding chassis rigidness..... i jacked the car up at one frame corner with the stock front end, & the fender hit the door.
jacked up with a Chassisworks frame, no change in body gap.

Of couse, this my unbiased opinion.:)

You make several good points.
The weight of the brake depends on which brake you run. They all weigh more or less the same: the lightest Willwood set for a Chassiswork kit compared to the lightest kit for a stock spindle.

The header and the oil pan; The point I was trying to make is that many people will need to change them.

Besides, the Chassisworks kit is the best clip on the market so it makes sense that you have a wider array of headers that fit.


As for my opinion;
If you need the extra space around the engine the clip is the way to go.

If you are looking to add headers, rack & pinion steering, and disc brakes all at once the clip still makes sense, but so does the CPP kit. I think either is a good choice.

If you are happy with the brakes and headers, the CPP kit is the way to go.

Each of these kits have thier pros and cons. It really comes down to each persons needs & wants, and thier machanical skills.

Danny Nix
CPP:)

With a clip you no longer need the forty year old steering box, or the drag link, inner and outer tie rod ends. So add those parts into the comparison as well. My clip also came with all the parts needed for the steering hook up so no need for an aftermarket steering column. If I ever do wear out my rack and pinion a new one is much less than the total of steering parts on a stock front end and much easier to find. :cool:


:cool:

+1 for aftermarket clip and here is a cheap LS1/4L60E.

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76671

u can always wait for Jason to quit his job & start mass-producing the C4 front clips......LOL!!!

hope ur gettin the info u need from these guys, they all have good points.

JOHN

It really comes down to each persons needs & wants, and thier machanical skills.

Danny Nix
CPP:)

For me, it's what my wife lets me have

u can always wait for Jason to quit his job & start mass-producing the C4 front clips......LOL!!!

JOHN

I have already achieved half of that. ;) LOL ;) I'm already having bad thoughts about C5 suspension. :D

just a thought to consider... the CPP "KIT" is just the A-Arms... no brakes, no steering... that's it. so by the time you upgrade all the needed parts you MAY wish to recheck the total package.


you're gonna be surprised how quickly it all adds up... check what you get for a "Complete" set up... whether a "clip" or a CPP "kit"

Check this out i work at CPP as most know and this is a real tough comparison. Its like comparing 2 houses in the same desirable city but one is 50 feet off the ocean shoreline and one is 3 miles to the beach. I have sold tons of clips and for the customer building a pro touring or drag car these clips are the cream of the crop and he is usually the one who lives 50 feet off the shoreline.The CPP kit has found a way to rectify numerous MAJOR frontend issues on the early nova without completely altering originality or altering the pocketbook, and this is the guy who lives 3 miles from the beach. Both kits are killer and have helped the nova owner get to the "next level". Variety is the spice of life so just get whatever kit works around your build but understand either one of these kits will leave you with a HUGE SMILE ON YOUR FACE!!:D Its funny 5 years ago this vehicle was so limited on upgrades we would never be able to have this debate. I remember the days when it was idler bearing conversion or no idler bearing??? Great topic guys.

I'd like to hear from those of you that have clips w/LS1 and what issues you have had ...
Sooo, no one doing this combo?