200-4R or 700-R4 [Archive] - Chevy Nova Forum

: 200-4R or 700-R4


bosox
16th-July-2007, 04:05 AM
Which overdrive is the one to use? I have had a lot of people give me opinions about the 200 being a turd but others think it is a more evenly geared transmission than the 700. Currently, have a T350 behind a 406 with 3.73's in a first gen convertible. Looking to slow the motor down at cruise speed. Like to keep the console and try to make the original shifter work too.

cale

onecarnut
16th-July-2007, 07:53 AM
I like the 200-R4 for street use.

Its almost exactly the same length as a 350 and you should be able to use original driveshaft.

I have read that the 400 crossmember will work for the transmission mount.

They have a multi bolt pattern, so you can find them on Buick, Olds, Pontiac cars, as well as Chevy's.

undercvrSS
16th-July-2007, 12:33 PM
I like the 200-R4 for street use.

Its almost exactly the same length as a 350 and you should be able to use original driveshaft.

I have read that the 400 crossmember will work for the transmission mount.

They have a multi bolt pattern, so you can find them on Buick, Olds, Pontiac cars, as well as Chevy's.

Not all 200's are multi pattern.

the 200 is a good trans, and can be made to handle just as much horsepower as any other. you will be able to use the drive shaft over from a TH350, but the mount is about 5" back from a 350.

Necro
16th-July-2007, 01:26 PM
i like the 200's , i like the close ratio, they cant hold power in stock trim but they can be but stronger than a 700 with all the billet pieces. im gonna rebuild one and take lots off photos. hopefully i will write a article on what to look for and replace. im gonna do it will a rebuilder friend. gonna be a stage 2 800hp unit. not cheap.

all the 2004r ive seen are uni bell units.

to me a 700 is a good tranny in a tow vehicle or a big block car. even a heavy car.

i can go on and on . but others like the 700.

Nwayne
16th-July-2007, 03:04 PM
I'm thinking about doing the same thing, and will probably go with the 2004r.
For not much more than a built 350 you can get a decent 200 or 700 from BTO:
http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/index.shtml

undercvrSS
16th-July-2007, 03:10 PM
i like the 200's , i like the close ratio, they cant hold power in stock trim but they can be but stronger than a 700 with all the billet pieces. im gonna rebuild one and take lots off photos. hopefully i will write a article on what to look for and replace. im gonna do it will a rebuilder friend. gonna be a stage 2 800hp unit. not cheap.

all the 2004r ive seen are uni bell units.

to me a 700 is a good tranny in a tow vehicle or a big block car. even a heavy car.

i can go on and on . but others like the 700.

I've got one thats not a multi-pattern.

Nwayne
16th-July-2007, 03:24 PM
i like the 200's , i like the close ratio, they cant hold power in stock trim but they can be but stronger than a 700 with all the billet pieces. im gonna rebuild one and take lots off photos. hopefully i will write a article on what to look for and replace. im gonna do it will a rebuilder friend. gonna be a stage 2 800hp unit. not cheap.

all the 2004r ive seen are uni bell units.

to me a 700 is a good tranny in a tow vehicle or a big block car. even a heavy car.

i can go on and on . but others like the 700.

I believe some of the late 80's Monte Carlo SS came with the 2004r, standard Chevy bolt pattern.

Necro
16th-July-2007, 03:38 PM
all montes were uni bell 2004r , unless it was a early t350 unit. 83 to 85.

undercvrss where did you get it and what car did it come out of.?

undercvrSS
16th-July-2007, 04:57 PM
all montes were uni bell 2004r , unless it was a early t350 unit. 83 to 85.

undercvrss where did you get it and what car did it come out of.?

Not sure what it came out of originally. I had it in my Nova for a while.

shaggy
16th-July-2007, 05:21 PM
i like the 200's , i like the close ratio, they cant hold power in stock trim but they can be but stronger than a 700 with all the billet pieces. im gonna rebuild one and take lots off photos. hopefully i will write a article on what to look for and replace. im gonna do it will a rebuilder friend. gonna be a stage 2 800hp unit. not cheap.

all the 2004r ive seen are uni bell units.

to me a 700 is a good tranny in a tow vehicle or a big block car. even a heavy car.

i can go on and on . but others like the 700.

All the high performance transmission vendors rate and warranty the 700r4 for more power so Im not sure about this statement. The 700r4 was put behind trucks while the 2004r was put behind light weight vehicles factory. I like the idea of the easy swap for the 2004r but I got my 700r4 for practically nothing and it was accessible to me. I wouldnt hesitate getting either transmission for street use if the price is right. Ive had more first hand experience with the 700r4 so this might make me a little biased.

ChevyIINova
16th-July-2007, 08:10 PM
200R4's are better GEARED for small blocks.

700R4's are better GEARED for big blocks.

They can both be built to handle whatever amount of horsepower you want.

The 200R4 has a slightly better overdrive (lower rpm on the highway)

__________________

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p183/car_087/bottom6.jpg

67 Red SS
16th-July-2007, 11:08 PM
How does a TH 350 compare in size to a 700R ?

Necro
16th-July-2007, 11:34 PM
3 inches longer.




check out www.ckperformance.com look at his trannys and the levels of hp and tq they will handle. the guys trannies are in 8 sec cars.
i dont know any vendors with higher hp rated trannies.
he builds most parts for almost 80% of the vendors.

oh and just because gm didnt use it for high horsepower cars, doesnt mean its not gonna be good. a stock 2004r is made of garbage parts. look at powerglides.

ckperformance has led the way on billet parts ,e4340 shafts and drums. he knows more on this subject than almost anyone.

Necro
16th-July-2007, 11:56 PM
here is a good read , alot of arguing but if you can read it all you can understand the design flaws in both and what has done to correct them.
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/004619.html

hope it helps on which trans is for you.

chuckha62
17th-July-2007, 01:17 AM
3 inches longer.




check out www.ckperformance.com look at his trannys and the levels of hp and tq they will handle. the guys trannies are in 8 sec cars.
i dont know any vendors with higher hp rated trannies.
he builds most parts for almost 80% of the vendors.

oh and just because gm didnt use it for high horsepower cars, doesnt mean its not gonna be good. a stock 2004r is made of garbage parts. look at powerglides.

ckperformance has led the way on billet parts ,e4340 shafts and drums. he knows more on this subject than almost anyone.

Great link, Necro. Thanks!

Mike Goble
17th-July-2007, 01:23 AM
Which overdrive is the one to use? I have had a lot of people give me opinions about the 200 being a turd but others think it is a more evenly geared transmission than the 700. Currently, have a T350 behind a 406 with 3.73's in a first gen convertible. Looking to slow the motor down at cruise speed. Like to keep the console and try to make the original shifter work too.

cale

How do you plan to keep the original shifter?

bosox
17th-July-2007, 01:25 AM
Lots of good info. Looks like the 200 so far. I am leaning toward a 200. I am going to look for a 200-4R and have one built or buy one from one of the vendors mentioned. I need that overdrive badly.

cale

FunkyNova66
17th-July-2007, 01:39 AM
A 4spd OD lokar shifter and your original console would work. I've seen people on this board with the set up and it looks fairly original. The only problem is there is no lock out between gears and overshifts are common when shifting manually.

shaggy
17th-July-2007, 02:18 AM
Well I dont want to get into strongest tranny debate or massive stage 3 overdrives. For the most part you wont want anything like that if you just street cruising. Makes no sense to have neck snapping shifts and possibly breaking something just for a cruise vehicle. I like the guys at probuilt because they wont try and sell you anything and tell you how it is and wont say get billet everything and put a full manual with a non lockup neck snapping shift kit in a street ride and spend your life earnings doing it. I trust his advice and see he has 3500+lbs cars running low 9s reliably. That car has the $600 performance kit he recommends to alot of guys and the owner actually installed it himself and his wife made the times with over 300 passes so thats enough evidence for me.

Necro
17th-July-2007, 09:26 AM
actually the guys at pro built now chris and jake. they all share info, the guys at probuilt decided to work on developing a better 700 /4l60e.

there is alot more than which is better.

you only need a unit that is built to your hp/tq levels. you dont need all the billet pieces. lock up is a great feature and mine will retain that. personally im gonna need a strong unit. i plan on more hp in the future with either nos or a bigger motor.

both units are great for certain vehicles, both can be built for 350 to 400 hp levels for less than a grand. both have weak internal parts. a 200 has more weak parts, for higher hp levels.

i had a 87 monte ss, had a mild 400hp 350 in it. after i blew up the last 2004r back in 1990. i dropped in a 700r4, the 1st gear was too steep with the 4.10's.
i didnt like the 1 to 2 shift and even with the vette 4th gear solenoid i could nt get it to stay in 4th gear at WOT. then to boot i went 3 tenths slower in the 1/4. when i went back to the 2004r. the car was 3 ths quicker .
thats why i dont really like the 700r4. always left a bad taste in my mouth.

so im pretty biased myself. but im not here to argue either. just help make a educated decision towards a tranny. ( the better unit a 2004r :eek: :p )

shaggy
18th-July-2007, 01:29 AM
i didnt like the 1 to 2 shift and even with the vette 4th gear solenoid i could nt get it to stay in 4th gear at WOT. then to boot i went 3 tenths slower in the 1/4. when i went back to the 2004r. the car was 3 ths quicker .
thats why i dont really like the 700r4.

Probuilt says if you set them up with the proper gearing and torque converter some of those issues can be remedied. I guess it comes down to whatever works.

ovrdrive
18th-July-2007, 09:42 AM
i like the 200's , i like the close ratio, they cant hold power in stock trim but they can be but stronger than a 700 with all the billet pieces. im gonna rebuild one and take lots off photos. hopefully i will write a article on what to look for and replace. im gonna do it will a rebuilder friend. gonna be a stage 2 800hp unit. not cheap.

all the 2004r ive seen are uni bell units.

to me a 700 is a good tranny in a tow vehicle or a big block car. even a heavy car.

i can go on and on . but others like the 700.

Here is the set-up of what I did and it definitely is holding its own behind a 380Hp motor..


I purchased most but not all from this web site:

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=200-4R

High performance Shift package
Bushing kit
Washer kit 76-85
Bearing kit 81-90
Sun shell, hardened
13 vane pump kit
Stator support shaft 200-4R, hardened
High gear lock-up package #K013 by Superior
200-4R Alto Red Eagle power band
#13, 14 and 15 Tab washers
I have a stock servo on mine and just replaced the spring underneath but alot of the aftermarket trannies have the billet servo. The choice is up to you.

For your set-up I highly recommend the HP Master Kit, 200-4R w/ Red Eagle Friction & Kolene Steels.

As for the Torque Convertor and the speedo gears, I went to this site:
http://www.200raptor.com/

A lot of good info on that web site. Do a price comparison between bulkparts and raptor and see whos got the better deal.

I would definitely run a cooler out in front of your radiator. And make sure that there is about "3/4" to "1" between the tranny fluid cooler and the rad so you don't get the tranny fluid too hot.

As for the books, I purchased a Haynes book:

http://www.amazon.ca/Haynes-General-Automatic-Transmission-Overhaul/dp/1563921693

and the rebuild book from Bulk parts. Between those 2 books and the assembly manuals for the aftermarket parts, I had plenty of information to figure out what is going on.

The major key to rebuild these is this:

when removing the parts from the tranny, set the torque convertor next to the tranny. Why?? When you remove the parts from the tranny,place them on the top of torque convertor to ensure the correct order in which they go back into the tranny.

If there is anything else you need to know, please feel free to ask.

(Nova people helping Nova people)
Dan

bosox
19th-July-2007, 01:40 AM
How do you plan to keep the original shifter?

I would LIKE to build it to work with the factory shifter. I am not sure how yet, but i think i have read about others on here who have done this. I like the super clean factory 'look' with modern convenience 'feel'. May take some crazy engineering...

Looks like I am going to buy or build a 200. I have decent hp and tq but, I rarely if ever get crazy with it. I love the way it runs and sounds. I know I have power if I need or want it. I don't race the car and am sure that a couple of pulls on it (if i do want or need it) will not hurt it. I will build it to my hp/tq and I should be fine. I have never done this before but with the virtual recipe that Dan laid out, I think I may be OK. I am sure I will have a few questions but I am confident they can be answered on this site.

cale

ovrdrive
19th-July-2007, 10:02 AM
I tried to use the stock shifter but the bell housing or the exhaust was in the way. I think LOKAR or someone had the set-up you are looking for but with an aftermarket set of headers, it didn't work. I am pretty sure someone here might have already came up with a kit or solution that will work for you.


If you need any more information, just ask. Any one of us will be glad to asssist.


Dan

Mike Goble
19th-July-2007, 10:06 AM
I adapted a stock swizzle stick shifter for use with a TH350 and it was quite a job. The 2004R is even wider at the rear with a motor mount in the way. Getting the gates lined up will require some good geometry.

bosox
19th-July-2007, 10:55 AM
I have a set of Doug's headers that dump to 3" exhaust all the way back. I will have to do a lot more research, I can tell, to get this to work.

I'll put it out here and maybe push it to another area for different exposure later.

Thanks Dan and Mike for your input.

Anyone on Steve's ever use a stock shifter with a 200-4R and headers? Looking for input on the setup.

cale

bosox
25th-July-2007, 02:36 AM
Well it appears my questions were very timely. When i came home this evening, my 'bulletproof' T350 apparently took a bullet of sorts. There was fluid all over my floor, from a steady drip. Haven't figured out yet where it is coming from. Crawled under to take a quick peak, but not too much room under there and it was late. I will look tomorrow when i can get it up on a hoist somewhere. Car is sitting on level garage floor, not overfull of fluid, pan bolts are tight, rear seal has recently been replaced, didnt happen until it sat for a while. Drove it last Sunday (9 days ago) for a while, nothing crazy. So now i have the empitus i need to make the switch to overdrive.

So i search a few websites recommended in this post, see the magazines, do some other research, post the question here. Get what i think i want in a response to make a decision to go with a 200-4R. Better gearing, smaller case, no driveshaft switch, etc. Ready to roll. Thought about the local vendors and gave 2 phone calls to reputable tranny shops. Neither wants to sell one/rebuild one. "You dont want that piece of junk. You will be much happier with a 700." I immediately thank them for their time and hang up. I am not crazy about a vendor who tells me something is not what i want.

I seem to remember the scene in the movie Fargo about the TrueCoat.

Anyway, now I am confused again. I thought I was 100% getting a 200-4r but i let the thoughts creep into my head and i dont want to underbuy or buy every year or two.

back to the drawing board...

cale

Necro
25th-July-2007, 06:52 AM
how much are you gonna/ wanna spend?

gg64ss
25th-July-2007, 09:32 PM
I am very happy with my 200. It has performed well at the track and is great for cruising down the highway. Although, it is not a cheap way to go, especially with billet parts and a deep pan. I have $1400 in the tranny, $800 in the converter, and 200+ in the shifter. For me, it has worked out great but, if I end up tearing it up, I won't rebuild it. I'll go with a glide or T400.

bosox
26th-July-2007, 12:43 AM
I will spend a reasonable amount. What is that? I don't know. I have looked at CK, bowtie, tci, and a couple others. They all seem to be about 1100 or better. I am willing to pay this if this will get me a tranny capable of 500/500 and since I don't race or beat it, this should be more than enough and last a good long while. At least as long as i have the 406 installed. On a passive search for another engine, maybe...

I just need to get it bought and installed so i can drive it and enjoy it. Driving me crazy sitting in the garage.

cale

george 66
10th-May-2010, 09:32 PM
Use a 700R4. I dont want demand to push the price of 200R4 cores up.

Lmonkey
10th-May-2010, 11:28 PM
All the high performance transmission vendors rate and warranty the 700r4 for more power so Im not sure about this statement. The 700r4 was put behind trucks while the 2004r was put behind light weight vehicles factory. I like the idea of the easy swap for the 2004r but I got my 700r4 for practically nothing and it was accessible to me. I wouldnt hesitate getting either transmission for street use if the price is right. Ive had more first hand experience with the 700r4 so this might make me a little biased.

I'm not sold either way but my nova ended up with a 700r4.I traded it for a cowl hood so the money spent was already spent.It came with the shortened drive shaft.So there was no cost in shortening a shaft.A lot of people say they can't handle much power but they did come in corvettes :rolleyes:As well they post about this lower first gear:confused:I only have a few miles on the newly rebuilt trans and it doesn't seem there's a big difference with the way it shifts compared to the th350 I pulled out.After I have some more miles on the trans I plan on beating the hell out of it just to see if it is as weak as everyone assumes says it is:D Bottom line it sure is nice running down the freeway at 70mph 2300rpm instead of 70mph at 3400rpm:yes:

Rotorbolt
11th-May-2010, 01:15 PM
Go with the 200. You seem to have already made your mind up about it. Just stick with your original decision and go for it. That way you won't have to worry about it anymore.
I never have really liked the 700. I never felt comfortable with the 1st to 2nd shift. I've also seen way too many of these transmissions break and go bad. It also seemed that everyone of them in used condition I've ever come across needs rebuilding.

thedez
11th-May-2010, 08:35 PM
I put a 200 in my '63 behind a mild 327. I love it! As far as keeping the original shifter, buy a B&M Unimatic shifter. With minor obvious modifications, when you are done with the install, cut off the B&M shifter and weld on your original "post" shifter. That's what I did and unless you crawl under the car or drive it, you would never know it wasn't a powerglide.

edrednova
12th-May-2010, 05:01 PM
so is it bad to have a powerglide? should i get 200 as well?

6367Rick
13th-May-2010, 12:12 AM
Pictures are kind of dark, but I'll try and explain how I got the column shifter to operate the entire range of shifts.
First I adjusted the upper slip joint up about 1 1/2" to bring the lower junction arm as far forward as i could.
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss296/6367Rick/Column%20Shifter%20700R4/RickMartincGMPresults002.jpg

Then I removed the two bends and flattened out the finger on the lower bracket that connects to the tranny. This improves the ratio of liner movement in the column to the back and forth movement needed at the trans.
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss296/6367Rick/Column%20Shifter%20700R4/RickMartincGMPresults005.jpg

Finally i used the Lokar conversion kit and bent the crap out of the rod to clear the exhaust. Here is the position in Park.
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss296/6367Rick/Column%20Shifter%20700R4/RickMartincGMPresults004.jpg
It was a buch of trial and error, maybe the pics can save some time for those trying this.

novaconv63
4th-June-2010, 12:18 PM
I put a 200r in the vert. Freeway driving is great. Went with it for the reasons you are leaning toward. No new driveshaft,fit, etc. I bought the car with a 350 in it so first three gears are the same. I didn't go with the 700r also because 1st is lower and it shifts out so fast. Drag comparos I've seen all have the 200r coming out on top. The 200r also has a little lower (?) overdrive so your RPMs will be lower, Then you can put higher rears gear in, I went from 3.08's to 3.55's and enjoy the skinny pedal even more!

I have the column shift and used a KugelKomponents linkage kit, it's cheaper than the Lokar - FYI

brianlewis
4th-June-2010, 07:00 PM
I went the BTO Level 2 (200-4R) Route, cost was right around $2000 for the Nova. I am now doing this on my 69 Camaro and cost is going to be higher because of price increases and more expensive converter (3000 stall TCI $500)
Anyhow documented everything for the 63 nova here

http://63nova.nextmill.net/2004r/

Its a nice unit. I just bought a new TCI Streetfighter 200-4R for my Camaro though this time around. Streetsideauto.com has TCI 381500 for $1569 with free shipping and $25 off coupon JUNE brings it to $1544.
Bought the TCI 376800 univ tv cable and Derale Transmission Cooler 13220 while I was at it from the same place. Still lots more to order like the converter (going TCI 3000 stall streetfighter for the camaro because it needs the 3000 stall). I like the 2400 stall I have in my Nova it works great from BTO. Skipping the BTO TV Made Easy this time around and trying out the TCI 376800 instead. TCI includes the lock up kit so no need for that part # either. Will buy the BTO Crossmember though for the Camaro as I did for the Nova.

george 66
4th-June-2010, 11:08 PM
here is a good read , alot of arguing but if you can read it all you can understand the design flaws in both and what has done to correct them.
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/004619.html

hope it helps on which trans is for you.

Excellent thread, I printed it out to put in my "black binder of doom".

Bill's II
5th-June-2010, 09:31 PM
Hey Now to all. Here is another link for Transmissions. www.performabuilt.com/2004r2.html The prices and information looks good. Also the location is on the East coast for those who want a rebuilder closer to them. Respectfully, "Bill's" II Yes I would recommend the 2004r over the 700r4. A lot has been done to correct flaws in both transmissions.

shaggy
7th-June-2010, 02:58 PM
Go with the 200. You seem to have already made your mind up about it. Just stick with your original decision and go for it. That way you won't have to worry about it anymore.
I never have really liked the 700. I never felt comfortable with the 1st to 2nd shift. I've also seen way too many of these transmissions break and go bad. It also seemed that everyone of them in used condition I've ever come across needs rebuilding.

Remember not all 700r4s are built the same. The pre-1985 version are total crap. Im not sure why you had them go bad but my friend beats the crap out of his behind a Musi 355 with dart heads and streetcharger. Hes had it for about 6-7 years now no problems. He had it professionally built also.


I also had no problem making the stock crossmember work and didnt have any problems finding a driveshaft that fit for $80.

asteeler4life
6th-July-2010, 03:26 PM
I have used a 700 in the past and it worked fine. I ahve never experienced the 200 but i hear good things about them. I got a
th400 now.

f16fxr4real
6th-July-2010, 04:53 PM
I have used a 700 in the past and it worked fine. I ahve never experienced the 200 but i hear good things about them. I got a
th400 now.

700 first and it was great.
I hated this 200 UNTIL, I did the governor swap. Its as good or better then the 700 now. Shifts are nice and deliberate now. It was lazy with the stock governor and didnt let the motor rev. Now, right as you would think to be grabbing a gear if it was a stick, it wraps up and squats the rear hard. In fact, the front end feels a little light when it does.

63chevyll
23rd-July-2010, 12:22 PM
good info on the shifters,

great thread

ChillyWill
22nd-August-2010, 02:50 PM
shiftworks.com should have what you want to retain your factory shifter. my opinon go with the 2004r. don't have one but one day when funds permit that'll probably be my choice. also check out art carr transmissions. I know one of the magazines did a write on him or his trannys can't remember which mag though.

Dan_Lebherz
13th-October-2010, 09:57 PM
Here is who built my trans.

http://www.extremeautomatics.com/contactus.html

I originally bought a BTO 2004R and it ran pretty good for about 5 or 6 years but the shift got lazy.

When Lonnie rebuilt it he said the BTO trans was basically a stock rebuild with a shift kit.

His level 2 includes the roller bearings as well as other modifications, make sure to get the upgraded front drum. ask me how I know.

I am now running a Precision Industries vigilante with heavy duty lockup clutch setup.

Denis the Menace
14th-October-2010, 12:31 AM
I have seen plenty early 700's go south, I had one built for my S-10 Blazer w/4.3L I told the guy I was putting a SB in it, he said it would easily handle 700HP from a BB.

I beat the crap out of that truck I put about 200 miles a day on it and did off roaring almost every weekend. and The fluid and pan are super clean.

I need to get a 2WD tailshaft, a tail housing and the biggie is a converter. I will be putting that into my Nova after I do some drag racing then test out the 700 at the strip.

Never had any experance with a 200.

Smittys62
14th-October-2010, 12:57 AM
I just did a th350 to 2004r swap. Love the new 2004r!!:D! I did a 3000 stall converter with lock-up. I have 4.10s out back and on the freeway in 4th gear I can lock up the converter and it feels and acts like a 5th gear. My speedo is off some but it shows around 70 mph at 2100 rpm with the converter locked. It sure beats the 3000 rpm I was doing at 60 mph with the th350:eek:

Denis the Menace
14th-October-2010, 01:10 AM
I hear ya. I loved it when my converter locked. The trans shifted nice and strong and the converter locked up nice and tight. It sounded and shifted just like a 5 speed.:yes:

Nwayne
14th-October-2010, 01:19 AM
So is lock-up the way to go for the street?

Denis the Menace
14th-October-2010, 01:26 AM
Ya for the street/Hwy/even drag racing!

Smittys62
14th-October-2010, 02:58 PM
Yup!:D! Lock her up in 2nd and your 2-3 shift and 3-4 shifts are like Denny said, like a stick car (but super fast:yes:). Gots to be ready though, with my little 235s out back it wants to swap ends when shifting at wide open:eek:

Dan_Lebherz
14th-October-2010, 08:17 PM
At the track I usually don't hit the lockup switch until after I shift into 3rd. Don't know why, that is just the way I do it. I believe it to be worth about 1mph in the quarter.

Sooner1
15th-October-2010, 12:08 AM
At the track I usually don't hit the lockup switch until after I shift into 3rd. Don't know why, that is just the way I do it. I believe it to be worth about 1mph in the quarter.

is that 11.7 et with those rhs vortecs?
your set up is what im planning for my 66: 383/200r4 with 308-355's
i looked at the link from where you got your trans- seems pretty reasonably priced.

Dan_Lebherz
15th-October-2010, 07:32 PM
Actually, they are not RHS Vortec's.
They were GM PP new Vortec's I bought from GM back in 2002 or so. I ran them on my 355 for several years with the only mods being to support larger springs and higher lift.

Car ran a best of 12.57.

When I built my 383 at the end of 2008, I wanted to upgrade the heads but decided to first try my hand at a ghetto P&P on the Vortecs. I think I got a little overly aggressive on the bowls, so I had a shop install 2.02 and 1.60 longer stem valves, instead of the stock 1.94, 1.50s. I did this for a couple days of work and a few hundred dollars instead of the $1,500-$2,000 the AFRs I wanted would have cost. I also installed guideplates and roller rockers. So far they seem to get the job done. If I could get a good carb on here I think I could knock another tenth off.

Hamar
15th-October-2010, 07:51 PM
His level 2 includes the roller bearings as well as other modifications, make sure to get the upgraded front drum. ask me how I know.



I am thisclose to ordering a 2004r from Lonnie at Extreme Automatics, I am looking at his level 2 transmission. Is the drum you mention part of this level or is it an option?

Did you get the reverse manual valve body? If so, what shifter are you using?

On his website he mentions BFR has a core charge, what is a BFR?

jgcnova
15th-October-2010, 08:21 PM
if you use a 700, they are great but they are even better with a TCI constant pressure valve body kit.

Dan_Lebherz
15th-October-2010, 08:22 PM
I cannot answer your question.

I did not buy my trans from him.

I had him rebuild my BTO Transmission after 5 or 6 years of hard use.

He brought it up to his level 2.

If I remember correctly, I asked him what the weakest link was, and he said the front drum, which I elected to not upgrade.

15 months later he was rebuilding my trans again as I had blown the small gear off of the front drum.

This time he installed a billet front drum and since he was in there I went ahead and had him install all new wear parts again.

I felt he treated me square and straight.

I thought he gave a very good description on his web site as to what parts would be installed for each level. You may want to double check that.

Tom Griffin
23rd-December-2010, 07:28 PM
Did anyone notice there is a three year gap between post 30 and 31??? :D
Tom

Pandora's Box
23rd-December-2010, 08:51 PM
I realize this is an antique thread but I'll put my :2cents: in too.
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=181&pictureid=770
You are looking at my car launching with an Art Carr Performance 700R4 with an Art Carr 9-1/2"-3800 stall converter. Absolutely problem free, tech support second to none and about 18 mpg on the street. There really is no substitute for quality! :no:

Sooner1
23rd-December-2010, 09:17 PM
I realize this is an antique thread but I'll put my :2cents: in too.
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=181&pictureid=770
You are looking at my car launching with an Art Carr Performance 700R4 with an Art Carr 9-1/2"-3800 stall converter. Absolutely problem free, tech support second to none and about 18 mpg on the street. There really is no substitute for quality! :no:

tell us more!
cuanto questa?!

What is power plant size, carb cfm, rear axle gears and curb weight?
thanks
steve

Pandora's Box
23rd-December-2010, 10:18 PM
tell us more!
cuanto questa?!

What is power plant size, carb cfm, rear axle gears and curb weight?
thanks
steve

I'll tell you some but not all. :no:
Oddy's Dyno Tuned 408 cu.in. SBC w/GM 509 block and World iron heads
750 Holley 4150 carb
Ford 9"
3268 lbs.
Full interior (less rear seat)
Full O.E.M. glass
100% legal on the street
10.80's-10.90 at the track
You already know the tranny
Oh yea there is one other thing.....No freakin' bottle! Bottles are for babies! :yes:

Sooner1
23rd-December-2010, 10:49 PM
I'll tell you some but not all. :no:
Oddy's Dyno Tuned 408 cu.in. SBC w/GM 509 block and World iron heads
750 Holley 4150 carb
Ford 9"
3268 lbs.
Full interior (less rear seat)
Full O.E.M. glass
100% legal on the street
10.80's-10.90 at the track
You already know the tranny
Oh yea there is one other thing.....No freakin' bottle! Bottles are for babies! :yes:

pretty nice!
10.80's and 18mpg! :eek:
impressed!
what gears?

Pandora's Box
23rd-December-2010, 11:31 PM
pretty nice!
10.80's and 18mpg! :eek:
impressed!
what gears?

I've got several setups.

Sooner1
23rd-December-2010, 11:51 PM
I've got several setups.

fair enough.

Pandora's Box
24th-December-2010, 11:44 AM
4.10
4.30
4.33
4.56
4.86
5.13
Some with spools a couple with posi and all with Nodular cases.
Reason: I've got 2 cars that I interchange with and I race different tracks both 1/8th and 1/4 mile. But I prefer 1/8th mile.

1slow64
28th-June-2011, 09:52 AM
I have ran both the 700 and the 200. It will come down to who is building it and what parts are used. My 700 was "performance built" and was a dog but look at the thread above mine. that wagon has a 700 that was obviously built right.
I have a 200 in my GN from EA. shifts like a mofo:yes:
Look at all the grand nationals running in the 10-11 second range. 99% are running 200R4's the other 1% are running th400's.

Here is a 9 sec. T-Type with a 200R4. Great video. There's a few choice words at the end so watch the volume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY9tiHt1EzA

JamesPDX
28th-June-2011, 01:53 PM
I prefer the TH200-4R over the others because there is less internal friction than the 350 and 700, it takes plenty of torque, pulls a heavy vehicle, has a lighter weight, easy to work with, and can be setup internally to accommodate most any purpose (by a good mechanic using high quality parts). The 1st thing is to determine the purpose of the vehicle and then plan.

I have one issue that I hope someone might be able to help me with.

The TV (Throttle Valve) cable hosing is attached and sealed to the TH200-4R with a retainer bolt. I have been unable to locate the correct bolt size for this purpose. The dealer stated that all fittings starting in 1980 were metric. This bolt may be either a 6.0mm x .80 thread pitch or it may be a 6.3mm x .80 thread pitch. I'm not sure of the length, but that can be determined easily. It is the thread size that I am concerned about. There are 2 type of acceptable and recommended TV cables (~32 to ~49) that have been re-manufactured by 3rd parties; 1) a push-button adjustment, which employees an o-ring seal; 2) the screw adjustment, which uses a plastic insert seal. I have both. Can anyone help?

The bolt that I found may not be correct (it does not fit correctly). I need the correct bolt size, as I do not want to strip the case. In order to re-tap it, I will need to remove the transmission or punch an access hole in the floor panel. Neither is desirable as you might imagine. Thanks,

An access hole does seem like a good idea for being able to get to stuff.

Pandora's Box
28th-June-2011, 02:10 PM
I can't help you with your other 200 issues but I can tell you that I strongly recommend using a General Motors O.E.M. TV cable.

Many good 200's and 700's have been burned up courtesy of an aftermarket TV cable. The GM cables may not be pretty but they work as they should.

Hamar
30th-June-2011, 04:32 PM
I just put a 2004r from extreme automatics Manual valve body) in my 67. 406, 373's 235/60/15 drag radials. 2000 rpm and I was paced at 68 mph. Car wants to ride at 2200rpm and thats 72 mph.

tmoore79
1st-July-2011, 01:13 AM
Break down on a road tour away from home and way more people know how to properly fix a 700r4 and parts are more readily available. Not sure how much you travel outside "towing range" from home. Maybe a consideration.

Dan_Lebherz
1st-July-2011, 06:02 PM
That wouldn't be because they have a habit of breaking down more often, is it?

bowtie0069
27th-September-2011, 01:48 AM
My trans guy sells a lot of 200's to Stock and Super Stock racers at $4800 each. They seem to like them.

ChevyII MD
6th-January-2012, 09:19 AM
How does an old thread show up as a recent post when the last post was in september???

If someone edit their post does that bring it into the present?

Just wondering...

Mark

Pandora's Box
6th-January-2012, 09:25 AM
How does an old thread show up as a recent post when the last post was in september???

If someone edit their post does that bring it into the present?

Just wondering...

Mark

Someone voted on the poll Mark. :)

63novassrt
5th-November-2012, 11:48 AM
I keep reading ,that the 700 is better for big blocks and the 200 for small blocks
GM put the 700 behind a lot of small blocks more than big blocks
mostly in trucks because they ARE a heavier duty trans :yes:
schwabie

Pandora's Box
5th-November-2012, 12:18 PM
It's better for big blocks therefore much better for small blocks! :yes:

But then.... there will be the doubters. :rolleyes:

63novassrt
5th-November-2012, 12:23 PM
It's better for big blocks therefore much better for small blocks! :yes:

But then.... there will be the doubters. :rolleyes:

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Darth
5th-November-2012, 02:36 PM
I run a 2004R in my small block 350...does what it needs to do...:D

63novassrt
5th-November-2012, 02:44 PM
I run a 2004R in my small block 350...does what it needs to do...:D

thats all that matters :yes:

frogman68
5th-November-2012, 02:51 PM
It's better for big blocks therefore much better for small blocks! :yes:

But then.... there will be the doubters. :rolleyes:

so is the SM465 , dont want that beast in my Nova :poke:

Pandora's Box
5th-November-2012, 04:06 PM
so is the SM465 , dont want that beast in my Nova :poke:

Holy crap! :eek:

You'd have to make your Nova a 4x4 so that it's high enough to make it fit! :yes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Munchie_SM465_Transmition.jpg

frogman68
5th-November-2012, 04:08 PM
Holy crap! :eek:

You'd have to make your Nova a 4x4 so that it's high enough to make it fit! :yes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Munchie_SM465_Transmition.jpg

You forgot all the extra supports that bad boy weighs almost 200 pounds :eek: ask me how I know lol

Pandora's Box
5th-November-2012, 04:19 PM
You forgot all the extra supports that bad boy weighs almost 200 pounds :eek: ask me how I know lol

Uh okay.... How do you know? :rolleyes: :D

frogman68
5th-November-2012, 04:23 PM
Uh okay.... How do you know? :rolleyes: :D

Took one out of my C3500 my chest almost meet my spine lol , another reason to use a trans jack, thought it was stuck till it dropped..

ovrdrive
7th-November-2012, 11:33 PM
It's better for big blocks therefore much better for small blocks! :yes:

But then.... there will be the doubters. :rolleyes:

YUP,


I'm one of those indviduals whom you speak of sir... :stir:

DPack77
9th-November-2012, 10:41 AM
I love the low first gear in the 700R4... although if time and money were no object (and/or I owned a pasma gun) I'd install one of those TKO 5-speeds in a heartbeart!

nova66mussl
9th-November-2012, 12:22 PM
One thing to keep in mind, if you are using a mechanical speedo, try to get your speedo drive/ driven gear calculations as close as possible. The 200 does not have a removable tail housing therefore you can't access the drive gear on the output shaft if you are wanting to change it. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Pandora's Box
9th-November-2012, 12:25 PM
One thing to keep in mind, if you are using a mechanical speedo, try to get your speedo drive/ driven gear calculations as close as possible. The 200 does not have a removable tail housing therefore you can't access the drive gear on the output shaft if you are wanting to change it. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Nope, you're right!

2004R's require dropping the valve body. What a P.I.T.A.!

ovrdrive
9th-November-2012, 03:12 PM
Nope, you're right!

2004R's require dropping the valve body. What a P.I.T.A.!

There is this option:

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/speedometer_calibration_______va.htm

Look for the GM / Dodge / Ford Ratio Adapter

#54RA. This GM / Dodge / Ford ratio adapter will slow your speedometer reading down. Made for low rear end ratios with short tires. Offset for clearance reasons. If your GM speedometer reads too fast with 15 and 45 teeth gears then you need this part. This part will slow down your speedometer reading. Use this one to convert Kilometers to MPH. Cost $62.00

Also,
Prior planning prevents pi** poor performance. IF you plan ahead on your rebild for the size rim and tire combo, you wouldn't have to run into this situation. When you get the transmission rebuilt, purchase the correct parts and you're set.

To figure out what you need, look here:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/speedo1.html

Dan

baloo28
25th-December-2012, 04:10 PM
I bought a 700 for my small block. As long as we're talking about the tranny, what would you guys/gals recommend for a rebuild kit to handle about 500 hp?

Gr8apmech
26th-December-2012, 09:03 AM
Well it appears my questions were very timely. When i came home this evening, my 'bulletproof' T350 apparently took a bullet of sorts. There was fluid all over my floor, from a steady drip. Haven't figured out yet where it is coming from. Crawled under to take a quick peak, but not too much room under there and it was late. I will look tomorrow when i can get it up on a hoist somewhere. Car is sitting on level garage floor, not overfull of fluid, pan bolts are tight, rear seal has recently been replaced, didnt happen until it sat for a while. Drove it last Sunday (9 days ago) for a while, nothing crazy. So now i have the empitus i need to make the switch to overdrive.

So i search a few websites recommended in this post, see the magazines, do some other research, post the question here. Get what i think i want in a response to make a decision to go with a 200-4R. Better gearing, smaller case, no driveshaft switch, etc. Ready to roll. Thought about the local vendors and gave 2 phone calls to reputable tranny shops. Neither wants to sell one/rebuild one. "You dont want that piece of junk. You will be much happier with a 700." I immediately thank them for their time and hang up. I am not crazy about a vendor who tells me something is not what i want.

I seem to remember the scene in the movie Fargo about the TrueCoat.

Anyway, now I am confused again. I thought I was 100% getting a 200-4r but i let the thoughts creep into my head and i dont want to underbuy or buy every year or two.

back to the drawing board...

cale

Start the car and put it in gear. Your tranny hold fluid all over the place, if it sets it all falls to the pan - overflowing the pan and can come out the pan gasket if old, or even up through the fill tube seal and TV cable seal. and yes, it can leak at the rear seal just setting there.

Start it up, top it off and don't let it set too long. Drive her if you can!:D

Gmacdaddy
3rd-February-2013, 02:24 PM
Hello, I am a newbie from Southern Oregon. I am in the middle of a 65 Nova full on project. I too am debating the 200 vs: 700R4 option. I found a guy (in Oregon) that owns SR7 Performance transmissions. He really took the time to listen to my needs and make recommendations. I have to say he seems to know his stuff. He likes the 700R4 transmissions a lot, but he ended up recommending the 200R4 for my needs. Smaller housing, no drive shaft issues, etc... He claims a lot of shops try to stay away from the 200 build but he likes to build them. He will want all your engine specs, like cam, compression, heads, HP, etc... and he will build just what you need. He will warranty it for a year even if you drag race it every weekend.

Check out ww.sr7performance.com

Pandora's Box
3rd-February-2013, 04:36 PM
Hello, I am a newbie from Southern Oregon. I am in the middle of a 65 Nova full on project. I too am debating the 200 vs: 700R4 option. I found a guy (in Oregon) that owns SR7 Performance transmissions. He really took the time to listen to my needs and make recommendations. I have to say he seems to know his stuff. He likes the 700R4 transmissions a lot, but he ended up recommending the 200R4 for my needs. Smaller housing, no drive shaft issues, etc... He claims a lot of shops try to stay away from the 200 build but he likes to build them. He will want all your engine specs, like cam, compression, heads, HP, etc... and he will build just what you need. He will warranty it for a year even if you drag race it every weekend.

Check out ww.sr7performance.com

There's a reason why he likes the 700R4 better. :yes:

Here's why: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=426&SID=6

Professor Fate
3rd-February-2013, 06:03 PM
There's a reason why he likes the 700R4 better. :yes:

Here's why: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=426&SID=6

Nice opinion piece.:rolleyes: Maybe next time he can back it up with some facts other than observations.

hoss
3rd-February-2013, 06:07 PM
GM did put the 200 behind a performance vehicle. The Buick Grand National and the turbo Regal all came with a 200. A 200 can be built to handle whatever you throw at it. The 700 can as well. I went with a 200 because it fits where the powerglide was without a lot of mods (a new crossmember was used) and I wanted to keep a somewhat factory appearance. Just my $.02 worth.

Pandora's Box
3rd-February-2013, 07:49 PM
Nice opinion piece.:rolleyes: Maybe next time he can back it up with some facts other than observations.

Pffft!!!!

Since when are PICTURES NOT worth a thousand words and HOW can PICTURES be opinions?!?! :confused: :turn: :rolleyes:

GM did put the 200 behind a performance vehicle. The Buick Grand National and the turbo Regal all came with a 200. A 200 can be built to handle whatever you throw at it. The 700 can as well. I went with a 200 because it fits where the powerglide was without a lot of mods (a new crossmember was used) and I wanted to keep a somewhat factory appearance. Just my $.02 worth.

Maximum horse ever produced in a stock Grand National would have came in the GNX.

The GNX horsepower was 276 horse.

Professor Fate
3rd-February-2013, 09:35 PM
Pffft!!!!

Since when are PICTURES NOT worth a thousand words and HOW can PICTURES be opinions?!?! :confused: :turn: :rolleyes:

Yuuup. He must be an inguneer cause that's how they compare stuff. By looking at the purty pictures.:devil::devil:

Pandora's Box
4th-February-2013, 09:18 AM
Yuuup. He must be an inguneer cause that's how they compare stuff. By looking at the purty pictures.:devil::devil:

Slice it anyway you can, size will always matter. :D

Bassinnovas
4th-February-2013, 11:23 AM
My :2cents:!! I'm using a 200 4r (BFR Code) from a Grand National. Was told by trans rebuilder that it would not work too good behind l6 eng due to the rpm/shift cycles.
Soooooo I am now ordering a GM Peformance Crate 350/290 to use my BFR behind. Man the costs just keep on building. Anyone looking for a Fresh Build 1962 l6 194??:(

Gr8apmech
4th-February-2013, 08:50 PM
You know you can adjust the shift points in that thing and it will work fine?

Just saying - could save ya some costs - allow you to drive it while you build/buy the V8 and then use the same tranny!:eek: That would really freak out the nay-sayers!:devil:

Bassinnovas
5th-February-2013, 11:16 AM
You know you can adjust the shift points in that thing and it will work fine?

Just saying - could save ya some costs - allow you to drive it while you build/buy the V8 and then use the same tranny!:eek: That would really freak out the nay-sayers!:devil:

Ooh man, and I was using his biased advise to get me a new V/8 and now you have to tell me that, drats!:o:devil:
Oh well it's too late now anyway. I hurried up and ordered my Crate 350/290 before "anyone else" discovered that little tidbit, if you know what I mean.:devil:

ovrdrive
5th-February-2013, 10:51 PM
My :2cents:!! I'm using a 200 4r (BFR Code) from a Grand National. Was told by trans rebuilder that it would not work too good behind l6 eng due to the rpm/shift cycles.
Soooooo I am now ordering a GM Peformance Crate 350/290 to use my BFR behind. Man the costs just keep on building. Anyone looking for a Fresh Build 1962 l6 194??:(

WHAT???

GM put an electronic overdrive in the Colorados and Canyons wiht I-5s and I-6's and they work just fine. What matters is the way it's built and the torque convertor stall you are using. The stock Monte Carlo SS and the GNX have a stall speed around 1800 ish which would be ok for an I6.


And don't forget, bigger isn't always better...:rolleyes:

And close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades..

asteeler4life
5th-February-2013, 11:08 PM
I GOT'S THE 700R4 AND JUS' PICKED UP ANOTHER, AS LONG AS IT WORKS I'M GOOD! NO BIG HP HERE, JUS' A RELIABLE 6!

:cool:

JakesPerformance
6th-February-2013, 01:59 AM
There's a reason why he likes the 700R4 better. :yes:

Here's why: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=426&SID=6

There are a lot of misleading points made in that article.

Many of the parts represented in that article as being "weaker" in the 200-4R than the 700-R4 due to their size are simply incorrect.

200-4R front and rear planets are made using a steel carrier ( that appears somewhat cheaply made and weak looking), not cast iron like the 4L60 series units. I see broken 4l60 rear carriers fairly often. I've NEVER seen a broken 200-4R planetary. I've seen worn out ones in both units.

I've never seen the low roller clutch break in any 200-4R except ONE transbraked unit. I've seen them broken in 700s and 4L60E's.

The band isn't really an issue in either unit using aftermarket pieces.

The stock 200-4R input shaft is good for well over 500 HP. I've used it many times.
The stock 700-R4 and 4L60E one is NOT. They will break at less than 500 HP sometimes. They have 3 circuits feeding oil at the back, and although the shaft may be bigger around, it has a lot of material drilled out for the oil passages. It will snap off at one of the axial drilled passages.

The 200-4R forward drum is pretty much THE weak hard part. It's pretty safe to ~400 HP. It DOES NOT break at the weld. I've seen dozens of broken ones and they all break at the base of the splines.
That drum is friction welded from the OEM supplier.
I've seen welds break on aftermarket billet shafted drums that were defective, but not a stock one.

The OD sprag on a 200-4R doesn't fail.
It is the weak link to this day on a 4L60E. The aftermarket has made all kinds of improvements to this unit and there are some pretty neat parts out there now. However the forward sprag is the limiting factor. A forced 4-3 downshift at high rpm with power will kill it repeatedly.

The "one rear bushing" theory sounds good but holds no water in the real world. The 200-4R rear bushing holds up fine. The output shaft doesn't go through a case bushing but it is supported internally by the low support.

What they don't show is the really rigid internal center support in a 200-4R. They don't talk about powerflow, and other engineering aspects that give the 200-4R some clear advantages hydraulically and mechanically.

Bigger is better for some applications, but don't let a biased article be the basis for which OD to pick.

Both units have certain applications they work well in. One simple fact is most builders don't know how to make a 200-4R live, even though they may be good with other units. There are some simple tricks that make or break a 200-4R. Most aren't even secrets anymore.

200-4R cores and parts are becoming more scarce as well, so that influences some builders.

Bill's II
6th-February-2013, 03:09 AM
Hey Now, Jakes Performance, YOU got Right, The one way to your ChevyII/Nova in it power band is with a 2004R... And really Its Not The Size that Matters; It's How You Use the Size That Matters!!!! One other tidbit is out dated information is One of the Largest enemies for all NovaNuts, HotRodders, an OPEN MIND will always be the Birth of New an Improved Go Fast, Stop Fast, Corner Carve, Straight Line, Roundy Round; for Newbies an Old Timers... Respectfully, "Bill's" II

Pragmatist
6th-February-2013, 09:04 AM
Thanks Jake for providing an inside look at the 200r. I've always been a fan of the 700 but this is good information and it's appreciated.:yes:

Pandora's Box
6th-February-2013, 10:08 AM
Hmmm....

Some of the info is good, while others are wrong or just an opinion.

I've done a lot of O.D. research as well as race them and I never heard of this "Jakes".

I'm jus' sayin'!

ovrdrive
6th-February-2013, 10:43 AM
Just as Professor Fate, Jakes Performance and the total number of members on this thread have spoken, "We have chosen the 200-4R for a reason" And those reasons have been explained in great detail.

Now, you can take those explanations from all the members as proven research or in your words "opinions" but, that choice is yours and only yours to make.


I want to finish this by quoting Bills II:

an OPEN MIND will always be the Birth of New an Improved Go Fast, Stop Fast, Corner Carve, Straight Line, Roundy Round; for Newbies an Old Timers... Respectfully, "Bill's" II

Very well spoken...

JakesPerformance
6th-February-2013, 11:12 AM
Hmmm....

Some of the info is good, while others are wrong or just an opinion.

I've done a lot of O.D. research as well as race them and I never heard of this "Jakes".

I'm jus' sayin'!

I'm not here to spam this forum with advertising but Google will yield any info you need about my business.
We don't try to compete with some of the other shops for the 300-500 HP overdrive transmission market. 90% of the units I build anymore are 700+ HP. We frequently build for 1500+ HP. Neither the 200 or 700 are viable candidates at that level.
That's why I've spent considerable development time on the 4L80E. I've developed two different transbrakes for the 4L80E as well as several specialty parts for it and other transmissions,
I have 200-4Rs in 9 second cars. One of my 200-4Rs is in a customers car that is in the current edition of HotRod magazine.

I do it for a living, day in and day out. We get to see the failures on the cores we teardown and when our customers try to destroy them every day. It gives us pretty good insight as to what really happens. There are learning curves involved when you start building transmissions for real power.

Professor Fate
6th-February-2013, 11:20 AM
Hmmm....

Some of the info is good, while others are wrong or just an opinion.

I've done a lot of O.D. research as well as race them and I never heard of this "Jakes".

I'm jus' sayin'!

If you had really done "a lot" of research you would have run across Jake's Performance at one time or another. Very well respected transmission builder.

I think your research is focused on degrading the 200 as a viable performance transmission (which has proven itself over and over) and expounding on the glories and virtues of the 700. I kept an open mind when I looked into these and found the 200 would fit my needs the best. I can tell you my '72 would have broken either trans in stock form and I found the cost to build them to a livable level was about the same. If I were to rethink this decision today I would still come to the same conclusion. My next project will probably include an overdrive trans, but I am going for an electronically controled version so that automatically (pun intended) excludes the 200 and the 700 for that matter.

Nwayne
6th-February-2013, 11:30 AM
I have to agree with the Professor, Jake is very well known and knows his stuff.

ahewetson
24th-May-2013, 09:00 PM
Does anyone know if a 200-4r will bolt to the 194 c.i. 6 cyl?

Bill's II
24th-May-2013, 11:07 PM
Hey Now, Yes it will, Do some more searching on this site... Others have done this swap. Respectfully, "Bill's" II

TexasT
14th-July-2013, 11:37 AM
Just some info on the seemingly "bigger, better,faster,stronger" of the 700r4 compared to the lowly 2004r. Just as the "bigger" input shaft of the 700r4 in the article on webrodder appears better this might sway you opinion a bit. You be the judge. As a side note, I know Greg Ducato and he builds great transmissions. I wouldn't hesitate to take my business to him and his crew. And while I have never met Jake in person, he is quite knowledgeable on transmissions and always willing to help. No hesitation in recommending his shop to anyone.

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p7.htm

If the question of strength enters your mind, compare the 200-4R to the 4L60. A 4L60 uses an input shaft with five passages drilled through it. These fluid passages are used for converter release, lube, 3-4 clutch apply, forward clutch apply, and coast clutch apply. Furthermore, four of these passages run beside each other down the center of the shaft more than three inches (figures 6a, b, and c).

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p10b.jpg

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p10c.jpg

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p10d.jpg

The input shaft from a 200-4R has only three passages (converter release, lube and coast clutch apply), with none of them running beside each other.(figures 7a and b).

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p10e.jpg

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p10f.jpg

Because "armchair tech" and theory alone aren't always enough, I decided to include a little investigating. All of the people I talked to who have used both transmissions agreed that, even though the 4L60 is stronger in some areas, the 200-4R is still the one they'd prefer.
One gentleman in particular builds 500-700 horsepower Chevrolet big blocks for street machines and race cars. According to him, the 4L60 won't live behind his engines, because the input shafts break. He now uses the 200-4R, and they survive for up to 2 years.

from the article.

You be the judge. This is not to say there is anything wrong with either trans. Just that things aren't always as they appear.

Pandora's Box
14th-July-2013, 12:24 PM
^ ^ ^ This is TRUE! ^ ^ ^

For the 27 spline 700R4. :rolleyes:

Now I'm done trying and re-trying to justify the strength of the 700R4 over the 2004R. Good tranny shops out my way SCRAP 2004R's because, in their words, "that's where they belong".

The fact is and will always be that almost every high end build with a GM overdrive uses every overdrive GM offers but the 2004R. GM never used the 2004R in any truck, Vette or high torque vehicle. GM KILLED the 2004R due to numerous problems of them coming apart. Another fact is that the cost of building a 2004R to hold up to any other GM overdrive is 2 to 3 times more, PERIOD!

Like I said, I'm done with this B.S. on this site and this is the ONLY site that doesn't get it.

By the way: Where are all the 2004R faithful when someone asks a question regarding the 2004R? You people are nowhere to be found! You only come around when you see "700R4" because you feel that you have some bashing to do whether it's right or wrong.

One last thing: There currently is one SNS member/2004R faithful that is on his 2nd 2004R in not that long of time. I'll leave it at that.

Professor Fate
14th-July-2013, 01:51 PM
It's like you're on this one man crusade to vilify the 200. They didn't get it on the HAMB either.

Nwayne
14th-July-2013, 02:26 PM
It's like you're on this one man crusade to vilify the 200. They didn't get it on the HAMB either.

Yep. It seems if you don't buy what he says, use what he says, do it the way he says, or just don't agree with him it's an argument...
I think this guy says it best: ask 100 people get 200 different answers, much like asking Ford or Chevy. The 700 has been the tried and true trans and the 700 guys will spout all kinds of negativity for the 200, mainly due to what they have been told not what they have experienced. The 200 has it's issues, but so does the 700. both IMO should be rebuilt before dropping in your ride so in that case upgrade the weak points and either is a great choice. This is one of the better professional articles I have found.

http://www.drwtransmission.com/thm_200-4r.htm

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6906336&postcount=3

The Big Al
14th-July-2013, 02:40 PM
Does anyone know if a 200-4r will bolt to the 194 c.i. 6 cyl?

Absolutly!

Will bolt to just about any GM RWD Engine.

Al

The Big Al
14th-July-2013, 03:12 PM
I have to agree with the Professor, Jake is very well known and knows his stuff.

If you had really done "a lot" of research you would have run across Jake's Performance at one time or another. Very well respected transmission builder.



I'm not here to spam this forum with advertising

I will verify Jake, I purchased from Jakes Transmission a manual TH400 valve body for my orange crush. I was having install confusion, I left a message on a Sunday, he called me back on a Sunday and walked me threw it. Now my TH400 is the most consistent transmission I have ever owned! (And the fastest so for!)
MANY MANY THANKS!

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198432

My take on the 200R4 , it really comes down to availability and who is your builder. It's very difficult to find someone who truly understands the operation of the automatic transmission.

The 2004r is a difficult core to find and has higher cost. And having it built correctly must be done by a true knowledgeable tech.

IN THE END THE 2004r Will take MORE MONEY OUT YA POCKET!

Personally I like the 200R4 gear ratios, the TH350 has the same ratios and I find it to be one of the best ratio combinations.

Seems to be a mind block about the drive shaft when changing to the 700R4, people just freak out with having the shaft modified.


In the real world of performance cars, 85% of all owners who have 500HP only have about 300hp! So when they claim all the durability and HP it's false.

I know for a fact a 700R4 or 2004R used in a true 500HP vehicle, will destroy them instantly if not built correctly.

IMHO
AL

Nwayne
14th-July-2013, 03:30 PM
Good info Al.:thumbsup:

TexasT
14th-July-2013, 05:30 PM
^ ^ ^ This is TRUE! ^ ^ ^

For the 27 spline 700R4. :rolleyes:

Now I'm done trying and re-trying to justify the strength of the 700R4 over the 2004R. Good tranny shops out my way SCRAP 2004R's because, in their words, "that's where they belong".

The fact is and will always be that almost every high end build with a GM overdrive uses every overdrive GM offers but the 2004R. GM never used the 2004R in any truck, Vette or high torque vehicle. GM KILLED the 2004R due to numerous problems of them coming apart. Another fact is that the cost of building a 2004R to hold up to any other GM overdrive is 2 to 3 times more, PERIOD!

Like I said, I'm done with this B.S. on this site and this is the ONLY site that doesn't get it.

By the way: Where are all the 2004R faithful when someone asks a question regarding the 2004R? You people are nowhere to be found! You only come around when you see "700R4" because you feel that you have some bashing to do whether it's right or wrong.

One last thing: There currently is one SNS member/2004R faithful that is on his 2nd 2004R in not that long of time. I'll leave it at that.

Does it occur to you that GM pretty much quit building rwd cars just about the time they halted the 2004r production? Does this lead you to believe that they kept the 700r4/4L60/4L60e because it already was being used in trucks n vettes n fbodies? Does it occur to you that your experts just aren't good at building a 2004r? Not that the can't, just that they don't have the desire?

I'm here, the 2004r "faithful". I'm not bashing, just throwing out some facts. I have a 4l60e in my Suburban, I have had 700r4 in my Buick. I am currently assembling a 2004r for my Buick. Nothing fancy, a "blueprinted", careful assembly with quality parts. I dont know where you are getting your figures from but 2-3 times is way off. In fact, by the time you move the crossmember, and cut the driveshaft, I'm betting you are in the same ballpark price wise.

What is it that is sooo much cheaper when building a 700r4, and sooo much more expensive when putting together a 2004r? The billet servo is 2-3 times more, is this what you are basing your claim on? Your 700r4 requires the beast shell so now we are back even. clutches/steels are very evenly matched, shift "kits", I don't see a whole lot of price difference. Rubber/paper set, it's a wash. Pump parts are a wash. The only thing I see that is soo much more is the billet shaft forward drum. Think of it as a one time insurance policy to keep yourself from the side of the road. Then we have the issue of how much is the core. $100-200 for the 2004r, not even sure on a 700r4. As great as these seem to be they must be $400-600. Now we are back even again. Justify your claim of 2-3 times the expense.

I'm not sure what there is to "get"?

It's kind of like trying to justify using a sbc as the only choice, it might be the cheapest, but cheapest isn't always the best.

Pragmatist
14th-July-2013, 06:37 PM
I can buy 700 cores around here all day long for fifty bucks.

TexasT
14th-July-2013, 07:14 PM
I can buy 700 cores around here all day long for fifty bucks.

How much is a 2004r core in your neck o the woods?

Pragmatist
14th-July-2013, 07:22 PM
You can't even find them.

TexasT
14th-July-2013, 08:55 PM
You can't even find them.

They don't sell Cadillacs down there? I bet the yards have em stacked up. Get the tv setup from the carb while you are there for the swap.

You aren't looking in the right places. I searched just last night on my local cl, and saw no less than three being parted out.

The Big Al
14th-July-2013, 09:00 PM
They don't sell Cadillacs down there? I bet the yards have em stacked up. Get the tv setup from the carb while you are there for the swap.

You aren't looking in the right places. I searched just last night on my local cl, and saw no less than three being parted out.

Show the links!

Sooner1
14th-July-2013, 11:38 PM
I just read you can bolt a gear vendors overdrive also to a th350, i just thought you could do it to a th400 but for the price of $2700.

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrgm4s.html


I believe the 350 shifts quicker than the 700?
Gurus correct me if I'm wrong.
I currently have th350, 700r4 and have verbally committed with my trans guy for a th400. They all 3 have different purposes.
My 700 is perfect for my 400hp street motor but wouldn't hold my 550hp 383 or the LS motor.

Personally if I'm really wanting a od trans to hold up to high hp I'd recommend people consider the gear vendors od or 4L80e (but youd need to pay about $500 for the electronics). I know others have thrown abuse at their 700's like pandoras box but I don't really know how long mine would live. My buddy flogged a similarly built 700 and ran several 11.80 passes or better before his broke. I don't want to find out anytime soon.

Dawg
16th-July-2013, 09:45 PM
Now I'm done trying and re-trying to justify the strength of the 700R4 over the 2004R. Good tranny shops out my way SCRAP 2004R's because, in their words, "that's where they belong".

The fact is and will always be that almost every high end build with a GM overdrive uses every overdrive GM offers but the 2004R. GM never used the 2004R in any truck, Vette or high torque vehicle. GM KILLED the 2004R due to numerous problems of them coming apart. Another fact is that the cost of building a 2004R to hold up to any other GM overdrive is 2 to 3 times more, PERIOD!

FYI the 1986-87 Buick Grand Nationals came factory with the 200-4R. There's been plenty of folks who have went 10's in the 1/4 mile on their 200-4R's, built of course. I don't know of too many racers that would consider using a "junk" transmission (as you so put them) in a race car.

Also I don't know what you want to consider "high torque", but the GN's turbo 6 was "rated" at 355 fl lbs...of course they're capable of far more than that.

Smittys62
23rd-July-2013, 07:03 PM
My 480HP / 502TQ 383 stroker works great with my Built 2004r.:cool:.. And it didnt cost me an arm or a leg. It also swapped right in as it is the same length as a T350:D

rxfish
23rd-July-2013, 07:34 PM
So Smitty who did you buy from? I've been researching this for a few days now and pretty certain I'm going with Bowtie Overdrives. My local trans guy recommended them as well. The stock 200r4 wouldn't do the the job for me but the stage 2 they offer will.

bugguy357
23rd-July-2013, 07:42 PM
I'm running a 200-4r behind a 408 LS stroker that put down 465 to the wheels built by Performabuilt stage 2 this trans will hold up to 750hp never had a problem with it!

ovrdrive
23rd-July-2013, 09:00 PM
The fact is and will always be that almost every high end build with a GM overdrive uses every overdrive GM offers but the 2004R. GM never used the 2004R in any truck, Vette or high torque vehicle. GM KILLED the 2004R due to numerous problems of them coming apart. Another fact is that the cost of building a 2004R to hold up to any other GM overdrive is 2 to 3 times more, PERIOD!

Dawg

FYI the 1986-87 Buick Grand Nationals came factory with the 200-4R. There's been plenty of folks who have went 10's in the 1/4 mile on their 200-4R's, built of course. I don't know of too many racers that would consider using a "junk" transmission (as you so put them) in a race car.

Also I don't know what you want to consider "high torque", but the GN's turbo 6 was "rated" at 355 fl lbs...of course they're capable of far more than that.


Dawg,

I tried the same tactics as you are right now but HE just doesn't get it. He has been misquoted so many times is down right funny. Oh, don't forget that ALOT of others think as you do on this but, facts and other technical data just doesn't add up to him.

Yet, there's a shortage of the 200-4R transmissions for rebuilding. I WONDER WHY.... Oh it's not because they are, what he says, "junk", and scrapping them. It's because people are finally realizing the true potential of this transmission and rebuilding them with the right parts and putting them in older corvettes, trucks and the like..

Pandora's Box
23rd-July-2013, 10:17 PM
Someone just crawled out and HE still don't/won't understand that hinging all you "believe in" on a measly 276 horse car (GNX) doesn't make for much of an argument for a "performance" tranny.

Now all you praisers and bashers can :blah: :blah: :blah: amongst yourselves.

Oh question of the day........

Why is it that a self professed 2004R expert doesn't know how to fire up yet another new tranny?

taz3
23rd-July-2013, 11:07 PM
If someone asks you to pay for their build fell free to express your full opinion, but if it's their build, just offer your 2 cents and be done.

I can read all day long SB make as much power as BB, I still proudly own a 2 BB cars and 3 more BB's, because I prefer them, whether they are better or not, I don't care, it's what I want to own. We all have the right to choose what we want, like or what we think fits our build and budget.

Play nice folks!:yes: