1st gen oil pan questions, problems. stroker, splayed caps

[FunkyNova66]

I plan to replace my pan and as you all know my car sits real low. I am tired of having to pull in my driveway sideways just to clear the pan or going over speedbumps sideways. I'm just waiting for the day I rip the pan clean off the car driving down the road. I was planning on buying the deep sump Milodon pan but again I would be back in the same scenerio. Any suggestions or am I pretty much stuck with this style pan?

Thanks,
Dave

[John65ss]

Any reason why you can't go with a front sump? Will the "long arm" 400 crank clear a stock chevy II pump / pick-up?

[FunkyNova66]

Any reason why you can't go with a front sump? Will the "long arm" 400 crank clear a stock chevy II pump / pick-up?I would think. I have always been told to stay clear of the chevy II front sump due to poor design. I wonder how much affect it has if any at all. I do only have a mild 406 though. What are your thoughts on it.

[John65ss]

I dunno... I guess it depends on what you are doing with your car. For a street car with occasional track time, I would THINK that a front sump would be OK. After all, I'll bet Jenkins' A/stock L79 probably had one. I run one on my 327, but it is only a 14 second car. I'm really not sure at what point the front sump becomes "trouble". I'm also not sure if it works with long stroke motors.

I believe I have heard that the cheap ebay $60 rear sump pan is a little shallower than Moroso / Milodon... maybe 8.5" instead of 9 or 9.5" deep. Maybe that is a low buck alternative?

[Gloryhound]

Oiling system like they use on Nascar cars! I think they call it a dry sump system and it is used on alot of high end race cars. Then again it is a high end system to install and would require machining on the block!:nascar: :nascar:

[NovatoriusRex]

I believe I have heard that the cheap ebay $60 rear sump pan is a little shallower than Moroso / Milodon... maybe 8.5" instead of 9 or 9.5" deep. Maybe that is a low buck alternative?

I put an "extra road clearance" rear sump pan on my 67 and it's 8.5" deep. It wasn't as cheap at the Ebay ones (which aren't bad) due to it needing to fit a 1pc rear seal block.

For those concerned about road clearance with a lowered car, I don't think this sort of pan will still be short enough still. With my essentially stock height car, I'm just shy of 7" of clearance under the pan.

It's good enough for me, but nothing's good enough for Funky. :p :D

[FunkyNova66]

I put an "extra road clearance" rear sump pan on my 67 and it's 8.5" deep. It wasn't as cheap at the Ebay ones (which aren't bad) due to it needing to fit a 1pc rear seal block.

For those concerned about road clearance with a lowered car, I don't think this sort of pan will still be short enough still. With my essentially stock height car, I'm just shy of 7" of clearance under the pan.

It's good enough for me, but nothing's good enough for Funky. :p :D
Let's look...:D
What? Maybe 3"s?http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/smileys/yikes.gif
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/Exhaust/exhaust003.jpg

[FunkyNova66]

Here is a low profile deep sump pan. Has anyone every used one of these?

http://www.streetperformance.com/riproductdisplaysp.php?sku=3482

[John65ss]

That looks pretty similar to the "ebay" pan.

Funky... I looked at that pic above... :eek:

I'd be afraid to take that car out of the garage the way some of the roads are maintained in PA!!! :eek:

[Ralph Wynne]

I had a 67 with a moroso 7 qt. pan in 1980. I was taking that pan off about once every couple months to fix a hole. I wasted that engine and pulled one out of about a 76 pick-up. All I did is put small pipe in the corner of the pan and knocked it in about 1/4". I have a moroso 6 qt. on my car now. I had a piece of 1/8" plate put on the bottom and rapped around the sides about an inch as a safety. When I pull this pan off, I am going to try some other stock pans.

[Greg_R_63]

How about the Milodon 31065 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MIL%2D31065&N=4294908216+4294840140+4294889107+4294840045+115&autoview=sku)?

[undercvrSS]

Dave, I've never had an oiling problem with my front sump. I run just the stock set up. to clear the 400, you need to notch the oil pump, or run a 12 point nut on the rod bolt on I think the #8 rod. you will also need to dimple the center of the pan to clear the crank (found that one out the hard way). You should be fine with the stock set up.

[Paul Wright]

I have a solution, but right now it's CAD "vaporware" not hardware. It's a new front sump pump using a gerotor instead of gears. Clears stroker cranks with improved pumping ability over stock pump. If there was enough demand, it could be produced. See best of tech for thread on HD front sump pump parts.

[novafied]

hi funky, most of the oil pans out there do hang low for the novas. i found the cheap ones like on ebay work good and don't hang too low. my trans pan hangs a bit lower than the oil pan. it's the same as on ebay but got it from one of those traveling parts guys you see at car shows. if you do get one don't buy the black painted one as the paint flaked off on the welds.even on the inside. get the raw or gold one.i bought the gold one.;) http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/novafied/DCP_0390.jpg

[FunkyNova66]

Looks like I'm gonna buy the gold ebay low profile one then. Can I use the same pump and oil pick up tube I currently use or did you buy a new one with the kit?

[66RICH]

You might gain a 1" with that e-bay pan. Lot's of guys running
the stock pan setup with no problems. We aren't running high
rev strip cars. I plan on switching this winter when I change over
to the new 'A' arm setup, and lower mine back to stock.
Good luck, Rich

[hot66]

Anybody else notice the oilpan on the car in Super Chevy's article about the cpp front end install?
Looked like a different version of a front sump pan. Maybe a custom job?

Just curious.....
Jeff

[FunkyNova66]

You might gain a 1" with that e-bay pan. Lot's of guys running
the stock pan setup with no problems. We aren't running high
rev strip cars. I plan on switching this winter when I change over
to the new 'A' arm setup, and lower mine back to stock.
Good luck, Rich
Rich,
Been meaning to ask you for a while now.... Why did you decide to raise your car higher than stock height and how did you do it? I have contemplated raising mine back up to stock height for the very reason of not having to deal with clearance issues when driving around. It gets old after a while.

Dave

[66RICH]

Funky, I had clearance issues like you with the pan, but i
also liked the look. I want to lower it back for a little more high speed
stability at the track, the back is also raised with rearched springs.
Here's a link to some picks of the spacers I made to raise the front,
they work fine, and was still able to align the front end without
problems.
With a front sump pan you should be able to leave yours where
it is if the pan is your only clearance issue.
Good luck, Rich

[FunkyNova66]

Rich...Did you have to modify your front sump pan, oil pump, or pick up with your 406?

[Shane65]

I had the Milodon 31065 pan on the 65 with a stroker small block. It's an inch shorter at the rear then the "C" notch pans. Road clearance is OK with a stock height or slightly lowered car. When I decided to lower the car more I went back to a stock front sump pan. I had to put a slight dimple in the pan near the center of the engine. Fit the pan on without a gasket and clearance the pan. Put the gasket on and you'll be good to go. I did have to grind and then regrind, then regrind again until the oil pump cleaered the crank. Not a big deal but it has to be done.

[Chris67Wagon]

Hey Dave; I'm running the Ebay pan on my wagon (stock heigth)..Plenty of clearance...just check your pick-up clearance to the bottom of the pan, I used the sump pick-up that came with my Ebay pan. You will have to remove your drag link at the steering arm and your driver side tie rod end at the spindal.... I just did this in my wagon..Used the 1 piece gasket too...Chris

[Acadian67sd]

run this on both my gen 2's........my 2 cents

http://canton.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/75474/15-170

[FunkyNova66]

Thanks guys for all the input.

[66RICH]

Funky, Haven't changed mine yet. I'll do that this winter. I'll
follow Shane's advice when I do mine, saw his in person at the Nat's
in Indy. Awsome Nova!

Good luck, Rich

[Wally]

Milodon makes a low profile stroker pan that I use for the same reasons you state, but they arent cheap and I also have an mustangII front suspension. the bottom of the oil pan sits level with the crossmember and the tranny 700r4 pan but my car is basically stock height.

wrs

[FunkyNova66]

Thanks again guys for the input.

Dave

[FunkyNova66]

What about the one Greg posted? How does the oil in the front sump ever get to the back sump? Is the peice below the cut out hollow or simply a solid plate?

[Shane65]

That's the Milodon 31065 pan. It has a number of baffles in it. Each baffle has a one way trap door to let the oil flow rearward. It prevents the oil from leaving the rear oil pump pickup area so as not to starve the engine. I think the rear height is around 8 1.2". I wouldn't think it would fit the majority of the new clips(certainly not the TCI one).

[Bob T]

How about a larger capacity oil filter?

[Mike Feudo]

I use the pan shown above in both cars. It works fine and one of the cars sets really low with no problems.

[patman]

Maybe if I just tighten the bolts down real tight? :D :D

http://www.bracketracer.com/engine/oilpan01.jpg

I'm debating between trying to bend the pan to fit, or cutting and welding. I'm worried that if I try to beat on it to make it fit, I'll warp the mounting flange, so currently I'm leaning towards the cut/weld plan. (But my welding skills aren't the greatest, so I'd have to make it seal *and* not warp it with heat.) I know the gasket will take up some of the room, but I'm planning on making it fit without a gasket to give me some clearance when the gasket is there.

Anybody done this before? Suggestions?

[stock z/28]

Hello.


Another issue may be the rod bolt to pan rail clearance, Most ( but not all) of the 70 up rear sump pans are kinda chamfered on the pan rail to clear the 400 stroke. The early pans I have seen are not, and a lot of the 3.750 stroke applications will "barley" hit the rail. Sometimes its not until its started its noticeable.


I have had pretty good luck carefully heating the pan in the rail area and "gently" modifying it.

[burkej62]

Ah JB weld that there gap ! Holds real good ! :p

[John65ss]

IS that a stock front sump pan? I would think someone here is using a front sump pan on a 400 block with the wider caps... maybe they can help? :confused:

[patman]

Yes, that's a stock front sump pan. I picked it up from another Steve's member about a month ago. Anyone got a picture of an undented stock pan? I think the sump is dented in a bit on this one, and want to verify before I start un-denting it (and the one I have in the car now is probably dented too...) The dipstick feed tube needs replacing too...anyone ever done that?

Yep, I know about the rod bolts too...one crisis at a time though! :D :D I can't get a bead on the rod bolt clearance until I get the pan past the main caps. I'm expecting this isn't the last of the mods needed. Gently, huh? :D :D

Johnny suggested (on another thread) grinding the splayed caps a bit narrower. They do extend well past the outboard bolts, but...modifying them makes me nervous. I'd rather modify the pan I think.

I'll reserve the JB weld idea to fix up the porosity of my lousy MIG welds!

[Paul Wright]

I'm working on the other problem when using the front sump set up on a stroker engine. The amount of grinding on the pump to clear the rods is a bunch. It looks like I'm going to have to relocate a galley plug hole slightly upwards and tap for a screw in plug. This should give me enough meat to grind.
The pickup tube boss will also have to be ground slighty since it's in the orbit path of the #8 rod.

As far as the pan fitting those caps, I mocked a front sump pan on that I have and took a looky loo. It's not going to be an easy "tap-tap" "grind-grind" affair. You almost need a stroker pan rail to graft onto a front sump pan. Then if you have that you might as well make a better pan. It's a slippery slope towards crazy, "what was I thinking?", fiascoville.

It's time to quit chopping, take a step back and admire the forest.
The stock ChevyII, "just an economy car", front sump pan is crap for serious acceleration and performance. You'll have this killer engine and you won't be able to step on the wow! pedal because all the oil will go as far away from the pickup tube as it can get.
I've been working on the front sump problems since 2002 and the one problem I can't get around is the laws of physics.

400 Hp street cars and Vintage road race cars that brake harder than they accelerate can use the front sump with some mods.
500 hp drag cars with 60 ft times under 1.6 seconds really need to go rear sump.

From the looks of that engine I'd say you need to go rear sump.
You have two rear sump options:
Go with the rear sump ChevyII pan with the steering linkage notch.
Go with an aftermarket front subframe and use a "normal" performance pan, pre-clearanced for strokers.

[Scooter]

Or get a rack and pinion setup for the stock subframe.

[patman]

I understand what you're saying about the pump mods. I mocked it up with just the caps on, but that was a looong time ago before I even had the block machined. I haven't had it on since. A definite goof on my part.


From the looks of that engine I'd say you need to go rear sump.
You have two rear sump options:
Go with the rear sump ChevyII pan with the steering linkage notch.
Go with an aftermarket front subframe and use a "normal" performance pan, pre-clearanced for strokers.

Unfortunately...I'm coming to the same conclusion. That second option just ain't gonna happen, so I'm left with the notched pan. I expected to need to rework the pan rail to clear the rod bolts...just not the rod bolts AND the main caps AND clearancing the pump AND...etc..

I really haven't seen any rear sump pans with any sort of decent ground clearance though. I want to have the pucker feeling because of the acceleration...not because I'm worried about running aground on the crown in the road. I had a Moroso pan on the car when I bought it, and I could never relax with that thing on there.

There's one pan from C2Only that isn't bad, and there's always that cheapie eBay one that might work too. If I'm going to be modifying stuff anyway for rod clearance, I guess I should consider starting with a rear sump pan. that will avoid *some* of the problems at any rate.

Guess I may be sending you a new pump and another check... :D

Stay tuned...got some deciding to do...

[Scooter]

Maybe try the full sump milodon pan. It's pretty tricked out and seems to have decent ground clearance, but it's pricey.

[John65ss]

The amount of grinding on the pump to clear the rods is a bunch.

Paul.. which rods? Are we talking about stock 5.7 GM rods, 5.565 rods, etc?

Do aftermarket capscrew rods help the situation at all?

I am planning a 400 sbc build for a street car, and I'd REALLY like to keep the front sump pan if at all possible.

[Marv D]

Of the pans I used on my 64 (before the frame grafting) the Canton SBC stroker pan seemed to fit the best and have the best ground clearance. The bottom sump is only about 3/4" below the tierod. Unlike the Moroso that is WAY lower. I used fenderwell headers so I didn't have any issues there, but you would want to check if the header your using will have issues with a wide sump pan.

Actually, here's a view of Canton SBC stroker pan in the stock frame (http://www.small-block-chevy.com/UPNUP2.JPG) ;)

[stock z/28]

Hello,

I really don't know much about the ground clearance thing, but I almost always use rear sump pans on the early Nova, I am doing a 412 for one this week with a rear sump Milodon pan. I will check the depth of the pan if if you like. Its for street/ bracket car.

I have used a stock rear sump pan of an early Impala style 327 in this application before. Its been quite a while ago, Bill Jenkins showed doing it in one of his articles. I modified it some, but its kinda irrelevant as with the aftermarket caps you may not get clearance with any "stock" pan.


Good Luck

Jeff

[NEVER FINISHED64]

I had the same problem as your having with my Mildon full box pan that has the steering linkage hole through it.
I tried elongating the pan holes with a small file and pulling the pan further apart to get clearance. Results were a slopping hole and still not enough clearance. I ended up grinding a shade off two of the caps. It was only one side that needed the clearance and it wasn't much.

If you check the advertised height mesurement on this full length pan I think you will find it has more ground clearance over the notched pans.

My car sits lower than stock and the thing that I have to watch most is hitting my drive shaft loop, not the pan.

hopes this helps - I know it was frustrating for me when I noticed the problem, after thinking I had the bugs worked out and was planning on putting the motor in the next day.

After looking at your picture again, yours is a whole lot worst than mine was, mine was so *** frustrating because I couldn;t figure out why the pan holes weren't ligining up and thought I must have tweeked my hold pan and kept messing with it trying to get it to fit.

[patman]

I re-read the other thread on 1st gen pans: http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44583

Shane65 says he used a stock pan and pump with a 3.875" stroker...how much grinding was that though?

Nice shot of the Canton pan...maybe someday...:D :D

I think I may grab one of the eBay specials and see how that fits. Rumor has it that it's the same pan that C2Only sells. That's supposed to be 8.25" or 8.5" deep, depending on who you believe.

As it happens, there's one of the Milodon box pans on eBay now, I was considering that because it says it clears stroker setups...but you said you needed to modfiy yours to get around your caps. According to Summit, that pan is 8.5" deep (well, one end is 7.5, the other end is 8.5)

If I have to modify it anyway....might as well start cheaper. but, if the Milodon one doesn't go up in price much...that's a nicer piece.

I did some measuring, the stock pan is about 7.25" deep, so 8.5 isn't *too* bad. I have 6" of clearance now.

Decisions, decisions...

[Wogs64SS]

Got a new pan from one of the Nova parts vendors.
Bought a new Felpro one piece pan gasket.
It leaks pretty good in the front.
Should I drop the front and put RTV on the seal?
Suggestions?

[1971novaSS]

What engine it is might be of use. 350? 454? If its a 350 then you might want to put a dab on the corners of both front and back. I have installed many of the single piece felpro non-cork gaskets. And Have had them leak many times. Just putting a dab on each corner where it connects to the block is the way to go.

And making sure that you have a good quality pan that is not creating "volcano's" into the gasket which will create unequal pressure. But it its just in the front area U shaped area then try taking it out and making sure all surfaces are dry and clean, Theoretically you should not need any gasket sealer, but i dont think a thin FILM of sealer will hinder the sealing.

This post brings back really bad memories, Pulled a 350 in and out 4 times and replaced the one piece gasket each time... Finally found out the the Thickness of the metal that the pan was made out of was thin and Would volcano when the bolt was tightened and made it leak. It now hold misc. Nuts and bolts. haha

Good luck, oil leaks are no fun.

[David_D.]

I know my brother had issues with the one piece gasket. You have to use RTV on the corners, and both sides of the gasket over the rear main cap, and front seal portion. It sealed ok on the rails.

[Wogs64SS]

Yes, it's a 350. I'll have to do that with the RTV. It doesn't leak at the back, just the front:mad:

[laser-red-nova]

My experiance is no sealer on 1 piece gasket. You got to have those re-inforcing rails on the pan. Those really even out the torque.of the bolts.

[Paul Wright]

There are several PN's for the one piece gasket (PN's should be in Best of Tech). If you are running a 350 you want the thick front seal not the ChevyII thin seal. If you order a gasket for your year Nova you'll be getting the thing front seal.Order the gasket to fit the particular engine.

[MY67]

SCE gaskets are the way to go.A little more $$ but well worth it.One piece gasket that is leak free.

[vuss6t6]

Got a new pan from one of the Nova parts vendors.
Bought a new Felpro one piece pan gasket.
It leaks pretty good in the front.
Should I drop the front and put RTV on the seal?
Suggestions?
Are you using a Chrome front timing chain cover?I did and it leaked and when i called fel-pro they said to use factory cover, because Chrome ones cause it to leak.I asked them to post that with intructions to prevent some one else from having this trouble.

[Wogs64SS]

Yes I'm using a chrome one:( I just checked "best of tech" and found I'm using the thin front seal gasket and need a thick one. I'll be getting a thick front seal and if it still leaks I'll get a stock timing chain cover;)

[ready2run]

I need to get a oil stick for a front sump oil pan, the one that enters in through the pan and I cant find one. I did a search on here, looked through all the ones on summit... does anybody have a part numbers or at least a direction I can look in thanks Ryan

[the FLYER]

try the Web-Link Library... in the Originality Forum... look under Restoration Suppliers and check out Chevy2Only. they can supply you with one ;)

[ready2run]

for some odd reason I always over look the web link library I had a chrome mr gasket that worked well but it got chopped...wish it had a number on it.

[ready2run]

can I use a block mounted(head surface) dip stick with a front sump pan?

[nova656567]

No. Depending on how you want to look at it, the outer tube is too short, or the dip stick is too long.;)

[ready2run]

thats what I was thinkin, I tried and the stick hit the bottom of the pan, but I didnt know if I just needed to get the right stick or not

[Brett]

You might just want to make your own dipstick. IF you're sure you've got correct amount of oil already, mark it where it's full with a sharp nail or awl or knife or something, and cut away part of the bottom hitting the pan. I've had to to that a few times, when I couldn't locate correct dipstick.

[novajoe]

Go to GM dealer order # 3860339 Tube for front sump pan
# 3862730 gauge (dip stick )
That is for stock front sump oil pan .
********new dip sticks come with yellow T handle now marked oil ******

[BigMike]

I'm building up a 327 and bought a Hamburger 3047 roadrace Econo oil pan. It comes with a pickup but after installing the pickup it's obvious it tucks 'way into the right side of the pan kickout. Looks like it may be a circle track pickup. I have a stock pickup so I tried it and it looks like it will fit and wind up just about in the center of the pan. Seeing as I'm going to be turning right and left it seems like this is what I want.

Now I think I remember reading somewhere that for roadracing I should not use the supplied pickup but use a stock one but I can't find where I read it again. I went to Hamburger's website and also searched online and in this forum but found nothing on what pickup is correct for a roadrace application.

Anybody have any experience? Is the stock one the one I want?

BigMike

[shortbus57]

I installed my 406 in my car and the oil pan is hitting the rack and pinion. I have a 67 w/ Heidts Superride. The oil pan is the Moroso Chevy II pan that was on the car with the stock front end, Does anyone know what the right oil pan part # is?? I also have the Moroso solid motor mounts, any help woul be appreciated!:cool:

[Tom Griffin]

From what I have found stock chevy pans seem to work. I use a B&B pan on mine and I had to notch the pan in the front to clear the rack.
Tg

[shortbus57]

can you use a stock pan with a 406??

[mrhockey]

I run a Canton 13-082 in my 66 with a 421 SBC Checkered Racing front end with no problems.

You can run a stock pan with a 406 if I am not mistaken.

[shortbus57]

Well i changed the pans and it still hits, so I am ordering taller motor mounts. I hope this will work,,

[lonewatti]

When installing a new small block in a 66 with a rear deep sump oil pan, ( with a notch) doe's the steering link need to be removed first?? Thanks! Justin

[Carl 66]

I just took one side loose and set it on the floor, which gave me plenty of clearence to get my engine in.

Carl 66

[lonewatti]

Thanks CARL 66 !

[smokin63]

Is there a oil pan that will have clearance for a stroker 383 sbc and go in my 63? I have been looking and cant find one for anything but a 3.48 stroke .
Thanks

[bdxstory]

i am new to this site and i am not a mechanic but my husband is. He is having a 383 stroker built for our/his 63 nova wagon. We had that same problem with the oil pan...i believe he ordered one custom for the 63 from milodon. again i am not a mechanic but i can get you the info if u would like.:yes:

[Scooter]

check out the Canton Racing pan #13-170

[veno]

check with

www.kevkoracing.com

and call them... kevin makes all his pans... and all them are not listed on the web...Very nice guy.... His wife is the phone person... great people to deal with.

[Luke Shaheen]

I was looking to get one of these. Haven't phoned to check if it will clear a 383 yet. I'm building one aswell and need to decide on an oilpan this month. Should be completed and running by the first bit of April.

[bdxstory]

i was wrong it was not from milodon it is from moroso. milodon said theres would work but you would have to hit out the sides. We went with a custom pan from Moroso. pan will clear a 3.8 stroke. moroso's number is 203-458-0542 ask for jim. it cost $250 + shipping. i hope this helps.

[patman]

check out the Canton Racing pan #13-170

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=578761&postcount=52

I have that one going on my 406. Fits great, clears the 3.75" stroke no problem. Make sure you get the dipstick when you're ordering.

[Paul Wright]

Patman and Scooter have both been down that road.

[bowtie0069]

Hmmm, I've used stock pans with no clearance issues on a few engines. 400's don't have different pans that I'm aware of, and they have the same stroke. What am I missing?

[63chevyll]

same here.

i thought there was only an issue with 4.00 strokes?

[patman]

Hmmm, I've used stock pans with no clearance issues on a few engines. 400's don't have different pans that I'm aware of, and they have the same stroke. What am I missing?

Got me, but...all I know is that the stock pan and the eBay pan both hit the rods by a LOT. Maybe it's a 1st gen pan thing?

[Paul Wright]

First gen front sump pans, pumps and pickups were never designed to work with strokes over 3.25". Add 4 bolt mains (especially splayed caps) and big aftermarket rods and it can be a real problem.

The best solution is changing over to the notched rear sump, but a lot of guys like to lower the front of the chevyII's which causes ground clearance problems.
There's a ton of information and pictures about the problems and solutions on the forum, but I'll have to get the information gathered together over the last few years into one place before I go.

[Mike Goble]

Hmmm, I've used stock pans with no clearance issues on a few engines. 400's don't have different pans that I'm aware of, and they have the same stroke. What am I missing?

I've had a stock pan on a 3.75" stroke 385" motor as well. No particular clearance issues except for the stock pump.

[shaggy]

Ill add stock pan on my 4 bolt block and 3.75 stroke. No issues. No modifications.

[smokin63]

Is there someone that makes a oil pan for the first gen and a block with a one peice rear main ? been looking but havent found one.
Thanks

[Mike Goble]

Go here:

http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?userwatch~dynamicSearchPage~cadeggdA

Search for oil pan

[Scooter]

keep in mind a stock pan for a 1st/2nd gen chevy II is very different than a stock pan for a 3rd gen. One is front sump and one is rear sump. A stock rear sump 350 pan will not fit the stock clip on a 1st/2nd gen nova without mods.

[bdxstory]

moroso can make you whatever pan you need. my contact was jim at # 203-458-0542. my custom pan cost me 250 plus shipping...

[VooDooII]

I ran a front sump pan on a 385ci motor in my wife 62, watch out for oil pump interference, Wayne Bushy and ChevtII only both sell front sump pans for the later 1 piece rear seal engines.:yes:

[Shane65]

I had a stock pan on my 3.875" stroker. I fitted the pan without the pan gasket off. I had to give the pan a slight dent at the most shallow area. With the gasket on their was slightly more clearance. The stock pump needed a lot of grinding and many trial fits until I had removed enough material to clear the crank. Never had any issues with it since it's been together. I did have a Milodon drag pan(steering linkage goes through the pan). It's 8 1/2" deep at the rear which is shorter the the notched pans.

[63chevyll]

good question?

there are som many 87+ blocks out there,

and the factory roller blocks

[63chevyll]

http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~partsort

there is one here

[ZNova]

Chevy 2 Only has custom built front sump pans for both 2-piece and 1-piece rear seal blocks. I am putting a 383 (3.75 stroke) in my 67 and ordered their 6 quart front sump pan ($159 if I remeber right). I stayed with a front sump because I have a 2" drop and do not want to take a chance with clearance of a rear sump.

The sump on the C2O pan is the same depth as the stock pan (7") but has kick outs for added volume and is built well (they also have a 7 quart pan). I laid the pan on the block without the gasket, rotated the motor seveal times and have no issues with clearance. The oil pump is another story, but Paul is taking care of that for me :). He has built a special jig to get just the right clearance for the 3.75 stroke.

[markus]

I'm installing the oil pump and pickup for the front sump pan on my 1969 350. I see where the bracket needs to be modified where it mounts. Is there a reason I couldn't just cut the bracket and make a tab that bolts directly to the main bolt and torque it down? The potential problems I see are while torquing the bracket may want to turn and using mild steel, it may not hold torque well. Any advice?

I see the bolt that Chevy 2 Only sells is simply a main cap bolt with a bolt welded on. I can do that. I'm leaning toward simply welding a 1/4 inch bolt to the main bolt and calling it good.

Also, the pickup tube does not fit tightly into the oil pump. It is slightly snug but it takes virtually no effort to pull it out. Is that normal or do I need to modify that also so it fits tight? (These are used parts I bought from a member here so I don't know the history)

[6T6NOVA]

The Oil tube should fit snug. By bolting the pick-up tube down you will not have to worry about it coming apart. I think welding a 1/4 20 bolt to the main cap bolt will work best. On a 350 engine you will need to grind on the oil PUMP for clearance of the number 8 rod bolt nut. I also ground on the ROD nut some, to help. Also when running the stock front sump pan there are a couple places in the rear that need to be hammered out a little. Because of the Crank counter weights.

B

[Paul Wright]

I just got done building a front sump pump for a member.

I built several fixtures to make sure the pickup tube is correctly located for the correct depth. I cut the bracket and flipped the L part around. The stamped ridge needs to be flattened slightly to allow it to fit flat and there is some careful trimming and grinding to make it fit right. Then TIG weld it in place. I also TIG welded the pickup to the pump housing, but you have to be extra careful with heat and use a nickle rod. The pump spring need to be removed and the housing wet sanded after.

The main stud that Chevy II only supplies is indeed simply a 1/4" bolt welded to a stock bolt.
If you are going to make one yourself it is important not to anneal the bolt and cause it to lose tensile strength.

To get the porper clearance for the #8 rod, I built another fixture to mount it on my lathe. I used a fly cutter with a custom ground bit that cuts an exact radius.

I posted and linked pictures in the HD front sump parts poll thread in Best of Tech.

[stock z/28]

Hi Guys.

Bear in mind Im no expert at this stuff, but in my opinion I would not use a fastener in a critical application that has been welded on. In about every application that this has been done and I have used a wet magnaflux some cracks appear in the bolt where the weld is made.


I would maybe call ARP or some other performance fastener company and ask their opinion, and they may think its fine to weld on these bolts.


As far as the early Nova screen goes I prefer to use an extended stud normally used for windage tray mounting and form a bracket and tig that to the oil pick up screen. Its very similar to the way the 66 L79 oil pump screen was supported.


Jeff

[Paul Wright]

I have to agree with Jeff about welding critical fasteners is less desirable than using a specific designed part.

You don't want to mix tensile strength fasteners since cap distortion may be an issue.

I think the Z-28 windage tray stud is best for those using stock bolts and the ARP windage stud is best if using ARP main cap bolts or studs.

The best solution IMO is to go rear sump and eliminate that long, awkward pickup tube.

[bowtie0069]

Since the crossmember is in the way, how would you fit a front sump pan in the first place?

[klean63]

Since the crossmember is in the way, how would you fit a front sump pan in the first place?


The car is a 63, the engine's a 69

[The Big Al]

You have to be careful about the factory bolt.
(if you find one)

The early engines were small journal and bolts were shorter.

the 69 should be a large journal.

I see too choices, welding a bolt, Tig preferred to control heat. Or tapping the head of the bolt and installing a stud.

In welding the bolt, as long as you TIG weld it, in a spot form. Controlling heat. Your not going to have a problem. If this was a very high RPM, performance engine, no I would not. You would also not be using the front sump.

You could purchase a single windage tray main bolt, that has stud, cut it off and thread it.
Would need to be turned down and cut on a lathe.
Simple enough.

This would be the best, if concerned about the heat.

NOW!!!!

If you can! Drill out the tab to 3/8 inch

You can use a Milodon Part number 81148
this is a single bolt, 7/16 main bolt for SB Chevy large journal. That has a 3/8 stud made onto it.
the stud does radius off the man bolt hex part.
This will work if tab on pick up can be drilled to a 3/8 hole.

(or you can turn this bolt down and re-thread to 1/4inch as needed)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5937/milodonboltkitcy7.jpg

[stock z/28]

Hey Al,

Have you ever taken the pan off of a stock small block and found a main bolt that the head had snapped off of?

[The Big Al]

Hey Al,

Have you ever taken the pan off of a stock small block and found a main bolt that the head had snapped off of?

No, never!

On any!

I have seen a main cap broke!

I have never seen a bolt broke!

I know what your saying.:yes:

[stock z/28]

Al, over the course of the years, I have experienced probably 5 or so small blocks that had the main bolts broke, just one per motor.

Usually right under the head.

These were just normal everyday engines, nothing special. There was really no damage on any I have seen, to the rest of the engine and the broken bolt would usually come right out.

A have seen a few head bolts do the same thing.


Like I said earlier, it may be ok to tig on a main bolt, but personally I would not do it.

I have tig welded a lot of fasteners for various weird contraptions that I use on my mills and other various equipment, but I kinda draw the line at at critical fastners.

The first welded main bolt I saw that broke from being welded on was a 460 ford that used an extended pick up. Someone welded a bolt to it (it wasn't a tig weld) and it snapped the head of the bolt when they torqued it. Maybe a just a coinicedence, but it makes me wonder.

Like I said earlier about all of the fasteners that I have magnafluxed that have been welded show some cracks. Whether it would cause a failure or no who knows.

[The Big Al]

Al, over the course of the years, I have experienced probably 5 or so small blocks that had the main bolts broke, just one per motor.

Usually right under the head.

These were just normal everyday engines, nothing special. There was really no damage on any I have seen, to the rest of the engine and the broken bolt would usually come right out.

A have seen a few head bolts do the same thing.


Like I said earlier, it may be ok to tig on a main bolt, but personally I would not do it.

I have tig welded a lot of fasteners for various weird contraptions that I use on my mills and other various equipment, but I kinda draw the line at at critical fastners.

The first welded main bolt I saw that broke from being welded on was a 460 ford that used an extended pick up. Someone welded a bolt to it (it wasn't a tig weld) and it snapped the head of the bolt when they torqued it. Maybe a just a coinicedence, but it makes me wonder.

Like I said earlier about all of the fasteners that I have magnafluxed that have been welded show some cracks. Whether it would cause a failure or no who knows.
these engines must be in the late 80's early 90's.
I was not doing much at all with them then.
But I have never seen that.NEVER!
Never seen a head bolt break also.
I have seen a lot of threads pulled apart, not stripped just stretched on mains and heads.

But I listed a bolt that would NOT require welding.
2 of them.

[Paul Wright]

I'm going to tread carefully on this subject because C2O is a sponsor of the site.
When I saw their solution for modifying the bracket and bolt to allow the pickup to fit non ChevyII blocks, I was less than impressed.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do this and I don't think this is the best way.

With that said, we have the opposing view from members that beat their parts into submission and report "never had a problem" with these parts and similar solutions.

Here's my view on the subject:
Because bolts have an elastic limit (the amount of stress that allows them stretch and still return to original length), there is a risk in applying heat that effect it's material properties if not even induce cracks.
A bolt that is less elastic may lose it's clamping force sooner when fatigued cycled resisting combustion forces transmitted into the crank.

Because stock main caps are made from cast iron they have flexible properties as well. Machinists will tell you that switching fasteners of different properties can effect the main bore roundness.

Many people do the things that they technically shouldn't do and "never have a problem". However, many more have problems and regret it. I think it comes down to luck rather than being smart, but if I advise against the easy, cheap way and advise doing it the hard, expensive way it meets with resistance.

I give my advise but ultimately let people choose their own path.

[markus]

Thanks for all the advice. Since it sounded like welding wasn't necessarily a good solution, I decided to install it as it appears to be installed on a 327 block. Unfortunately my bracket had already been modified to fit something other than stock and it would appear to have been bolted to an outside bolt on a 4 bolt main block. I simply made a bracket that went all the way to the webbing and welded it on to the existing bracket. I then drilled and tapped a 1/4 20 hole in the webbing next to the main cap and bolted it down with a grade 8 flange bolt with a little loctite as a backup. Sorry I didn't think to take pictures and the pan is already bolted on. As far as I can tell it's a good fix. I also ground a bit of the pump away where the rod nut came real close.

[ZNova]

I have the C20 main cap bolt that is welded with bracket designed to fit this specific bolt. The area of the weld is very small and it does not look like their was much heat applied during the wellding, but I don't know and the C2O site does not say if it is TIG welded. If not, do I need to switch to something else like the the windage tray bolt? I don't want to find out the hard way that a main cap bolt failed :eek:.

[stock z/28]

Well like I said, I personally would not use a fastener in a critical application that has been welded on by about any process, but that's just me.


I would not feel comfortable giving you a recommendation either way.

I would possibly call ARP, SPS, or some other performance or aerospace fastener company and ask their opinion, they may think it is ok.

I know on a lot of critical fasteners even small defects like nick or a rust pit can cause failure, but I'm certainly no expert on it.

[Paul Wright]

I have the C20 main cap bolt that is welded with bracket designed to fit this specific bolt. The area of the weld is very small and it does not look like their was much heat applied during the wellding, but I don't know and the C2O site does not say if it is TIG welded. If not, do I need to switch to something else like the the windage tray bolt? I don't want to find out the hard way that a main cap bolt failed :eek:.

Judging from the blob, I think they are MIG welded and that actually can be lower heat than TIG, but it isn't how I would do it.
I remember suggesting the Z-28 stud (there's a small journal and large journal PN) but you had already bought the C2O bolt so we went with that.

However,
before you go to the trouble of switching to a different bolt (and that will involve refabbing the bracket to fit because the height is different), you need to determine if your rotating assembly is going to work with the M73 pump. I clearanced the pump quite a bit and the radius is very close to the inlet tube. If you have to cut more the housing may crack. Some rods are just too big for the M73.
If that's the case then you will HAVE to run the rear sump and a skid plate on your lowered ChevyII.

Send me pictures or post them for everybody's benefit.

I still think the notched rear sump is the way to go for strokes over 3.5" and high powered Chevy II's. Some people don't have problems with strokers and the front sump and some do.

Added:
Here's the link to some of myfront sump photo's (http://www.flickr.com/gp/20604042@N03/041VT8) showing what's being talked about. I used an ARP stud for the Durango Duece, but all the mains were ARP studs and it was align honed with these in place.
I'll add more as I find them.

[ZNova]

Paul,
After all the effort you went to to get a front sump to work for me, I understand why you are so adamant about using the rear sump with a stroker :o. But I am not ready to give up on the front sump just yet :turn:. I will clearance my old pump and post pics. If I do have to go with the rear sump, I have the parts needed to convert to manual steering. That had been low on my priority list, but it may get moved to the top very quickly.

[stock z/28]

On almost all of the non-original style motors I build for early Novas I use the rear sump pan. Unless something prevents it, like rules, or clearance.


When I do use the front sump pick up with a 2 bolt style block (non-400) I generally drill and tap the web.

On 4 bolts or a 400 style block I just use the windage tray stud. Like I said that's the way the 66 350 HP cars came from the factory.

I cant really see a draw back to using the stud, and a modified pick up, but there must be some.

[ZNova]

I clearanced my old pump to see how much more metal I have to remove (not too much). I opened the pump to see if there were any thin spots or areas that might be stressed. There is still plenty of metal left every place I had to grind. For some reason the counterweights cleared the old pump but not the new one, so I had to grind that area a bit. I have looked at it closely and am confident the pump will be fine.

The pickup is another story. A rod bolt hits it between the main cap stud and screen, so it will need some adjustment. What is the best way to do that? Obviously it will take some heat, but what is the best way to apply heat without overdoing it. I don't have access to any welding equipment, could I just use a propane torch? I could take it to a shop but I don't really want to haul the motor and pan to make sure the fit is right.

Pump without the pickup is my old pump after clearancing for the stroker. There is a minimum of grinding left to do on the new pump. At this point I plan to stay with the C2O main bolt with stud.

[Paul Wright]

Don,
I think I need to adjust my cutter so the centerline of the radius is outboard slightly. This should allow clearance for larger rods such as yours. All I had to work from was the pictures you sent and my mock up block and crank.

As far as the tube interferance can you post a picture of where it's hitting? The problem with bending the tube is you may kink it. Also the pickup is not centered in the stock front sump pan. On stock pans the may not clear the baffle if it's bent outward. Pan depth may be effected if you tweak the tube. That can cause problems with cavitation or oil starvation.

If you want to send it back with markings on where it hits, I can bend it for you. I have the depth fixture and all the equipment. It might be a good idea to send the modified C2O pan also just to be sure everything fits.

[ZNova]

Paul, sent you an email about this.

[Paul Wright]

I got it and reply sent. Get the pump back to me and I'll finesse the pickup for more clearance.

I looked up the PN for the large journal Z-28 windage tray stud. #14087508. You can get these from any GM dealer.
This may be preferable to the Milodon stud since the other main bolt is stock. Mixing fasteners with different elasticity can distort the cap when torqued. I don't think you want to take the crank out to verify if the cap is round or egg shaped, so it would be easier to just use fasteners of the same OEM spec material. Just my opinion.

[stock z/28]

Hi Paul,

Not that it makes any difference but I totally agree with you on mixing fasteners.

On the windage tray stud if you have trouble finding any for a performance application try a Vortec truck 350. About all of the core Vortecs I have scounged have the studs and a short windage tray.


From the pic it looks like the Rod bolt will really interfere with the pick up.

Not trying to get mixed up in your projects, but if you need to modify that tube much, I have had good luck with using 6 cyl screens for parts.

[Paul Wright]

After some email Q&A, it turns out Bob has ARP bolts in his engine. Swapping one for a welded stock bolt is definitely not a good idea.

It's important to think of fasteners as very strong springs. They have elasticity and stretch when torqued. This puts them in tension or preload. If bolts are stretched beyond the elasticity limit they yield and won't maintain preload.
Some bolts require less torque to reach the same preload. Others may fail to maintain preload if they are torqued after having been fatigued. A bolt that "fails" may not actually break. It's possible for the bolt to stretch enough to come loose.

Cast iron main caps are flexible as well. The ID should be round and dimensionally correct with the bolts torqued to bolt specifications.
It's not unusual to have to align hone main caps when substituting different fasteners.

[ZNova]

Paul,
This issue with the oil pump, main cap bolts, etc. has definitely been a learning experience for me, and thanks to you and others on this site I learned some lessons just in time to avoid some serious mistakes :eek::). Probably the most valuable lesson you have taught me is to take the time to think about all the issues related to building an engine and make sure the work is done right. Thanks for keeping me out of trouble :thumbsup:.

[Paul Wright]

These kind of personal experiences also help others with the same or similar issues. That's why we publish the mistakes, problems and solutions on the forum for all to see. If we just did it by email no one else would learn anything.