High Nickel Block???

[69NovaSS]

What is the general consensus on the max overbore a 400 SBC can take? Would hard-blocking the block effect the max overbore?:)

[Real McCoy]

I don't go over .030 cause the bore is so close they like to kill head gaskets between the cylinders plus the walls are thin and tend to crack. This is on a stock block. Just my experiences. RM

[T. Jerman]

My 400 is .040 and have never had any heating issues. Matter of fact before I switch to the Tauras fan my eng. would barely run 180*. Not it runs a constant 200*.
Just as long as there is not very much core shift in the block you should be ok with .060 but thats pushing it on a 400. My eng. build told me that stock GM blocks were bad about core shifting which if bad enough could limit your boring.
Hardblock should have not effect on boring. Like I said my eng. builder builds high HP roundy-round motors (400) and he will sometimes put hardblock in the bottom 1/3 to strenghten the block but no boring problems. Hope this helps somewhat.

[bowtie0069]

David Vizard sonic checked some random blocks a few years ago that still had .200 around the bores. BUT, a lot of them are junk at .030.
If you can have it checked for a reasonable price it might be worth it. My last one was .040 over, and partially filled; it has a crack up one hole now, but I think it was borderline junk when I got it. I've seen guys run them at .060 over and live, but without checking first......................

[1quik69]

My 400 is a .060 over engine. the shop did sonic test for wall thickness before we used the block. If you are looking at going more than .030 over I would definitely have the block sonic checked for thickness.

[big dog ss]

punch it out and sleeve the block...

[bowtie0069]

Most shops don't like sleeving 400's because there isn't enough material around the bores and they distort very badly. The shop I use won't do 400's at all any more, not worth the trouble of customers being unhappy.

[Real McCoy]

The shop I hang out at has sleeved several of them because customers waste a ton of money for steel caps on a stock block then the cylinders bust. Then they just pour more money into it cause they already are in it too deep. RM

[stock z/28]

Hi,

I know this will be very controversial, and Im not recommending any one do this but I have a lot of customer engines that are circle track (12.5-13 to 1 style) 400s that are .060" with no real issues (knock on wood) and a few at .065 and .070..

I have generally found the 400 cyl walls to be quite a bit thicker than the 350s (on average). I have always attributed it to the 400s being siamised. I have a 350 block and a 400 that I milled to deck off of to see what the general cyl wall layout was, and its really amazing to see how thin the 350 is between cyls.

I have an ultrasonic thickness tester that I use to test the walls. As some have pointed out some "defective" blocks (both 350 and 400) are not even safe at .030" and in my opinion would probably stand a good chance at failing at std. under a high load.

So like I said its just my opinion and Im not trying to influence any one in any direction, Im just sharing my experiences.

Good Luck
Jeff

[Miguelito]

My 400 is .060" over and have about 6 years and 15,000 hard miles on it without any issues what-so-ever. Stays cool, around 180, even in the Arizona Summer no less.

--Douglas.

[63chevytoo]

I found a complete 400 motor with 350 turbo trans. Came out of a running 67 Impala wagon. Trans worked good also.
Does anybody know if this block casting is a good number? 330817
It has 140k on it but runs good.
What is the combo worth?
If the block is a good casting number I may make a deal.

Thanx
Don

[big dog ss]

there is a lot of debate about what blocks are good just from the numbers. guys that have worked at gm making these blocks say that the 509 blocks are the same as any other numberd 400 block. ive seen 509 block split under moderate abuse and seen the regular everyday 400 blocks last under severe abuse. im no expert by any means but as long as the block isnt cracked and bored over .40 then its a good builder. i prefer 2 bolt blocks then just stud the mains and you are good to go.. as far as price the trans is worth about 50-75 bucks as a core the running motor with that many miles i would give around 100. if they will guarantee that its a virgin block then its worth a little more..

[bowtie0069]

It has 140k on it but runs good

How can you tell the mileage on an engine installed in another car? The oldest the block could be is 1973, If it's in a 67 wagon how do you know?
The mileage really doesn't mean much anyway as long as the bores are still useable--most people don't like going more than a .030" overbore on 400's.

[Paul Wright]

330817 is a 1972-1975 2 bolt 400 block Cast in Tonawanda. Caprice, Monte Carlo, Chevelle, Impala. The 3951509 casting was cast in Flint, Michigan.
The only difference between the two was the small casting locators which fit each plants tooling. All 1970-71 400's are 4 bolt (~509 or ~511); all 1972-75 are 2 bolt (~509 or ~817). All service blocks are 2 bolt.

[63chevytoo]

bowtie0069

(How can you tell the mileage on an engine installed in another car? The oldest the block could be is 1973, If it's in a 67 wagon how do you know?)

My dizlexia must have hit at the moment of typing. The neighbor of the man that owns the wagon the motor came out of said it was a 76.
I just typed it wackbards.
Anyhow according to PW it may be a 75 I did not care what year it was.
All I know the wagon is big and ugly. The owner bought the car new and never done anything to the motor. I just mentioned the milage because I saw the odometer and most of the time one never knows the milage. And you are right it doesn't matter much.
This one is a four barrel. Were all 400's four barrels?

Don

[novamike]

Most 400's came with a 2 barrel carb,but there was a lot of 4 barrels too.
If the block hasn't been bored, the going price around here is $150-175 for common castings and 509's bring more. A 10/20 509 is supposed to be the best of all.They bring top dollar here $250-300.I don't agree with all this casting numbers hoopla,but a lot of people do.
This is all ball park figures.Sometimes you get a better deal,sometimes you don't.
I would have to make the deal contingent on the block being rebuild-able if possible. The th350 core isn't worth much,and you will have to rebuild it anyway to handle the 400's torque if you build much of a performance motor.
So the 400 is what you are really buying,and if it's not usable then you don't have much.
My $.02 worth Mike

[stock z/28]

Hi,

I think some of the 74-75? Chevelles and Montecarlos were available with QJs as well as the later Blazers and maybe the K10-20 trucks but Im not real sure.

Im not real sure on if one casting is superior or not. Like they said if itsa "good" block (not cracked-boreable-etc) it is something I would probably jump on.

Jeff

[Ray_McAvoy]

I think some of the 74-75? Chevelles and Montecarlos were available with QJs as well as the later Blazers and maybe the K10-20 trucks but Im not real sure.

Yes, I'm pretty sure all the 400's used in 75-80 K-series trucks and Blazers were originally equipped with Q-Jets.

[Paul Wright]

I think it's just an internet spread rumor that the Flint 509 two bolt block is better than Tonawanda 817 two bolt block. At one time the 4 bolt block was considered superior to the 2 bolt block. Then it was get the 2 bolt and add splayed caps.

In any event good, usable 400 blocks are getting harder to find, so this may be your best chance to get one.
The only thing on that car that's worth anything is the block. Buying the car for $400 and selling the block for $250-350 and the shell for scrap metal isn't going to get you rich.

[stock z/28]

Hello,

Yes Ray I agree that they were QJ on the trucks, I dont know of any truck 400s that were not 4barrels, but Im not sure when they started offering them in a truck.


Good Luck

Jeff

[big dog ss]

my first 4x4 was a 1976 K5 blazer. it came factory with a 400- 4barrel..

[69NovaSS]

Hi,

I know this will be very controversial, and Im not recommending any one do this but I have a lot of customer engines that are circle track (12.5-13 to 1 style) 400s that are .060" with no real issues (knock on wood) and a few at .065 and .070..

I have generally found the 400 cyl walls to be quite a bit thicker than the 350s (on average). I have always attributed it to the 400s being siamised. I have a 350 block and a 400 that I milled to deck off of to see what the general cyl wall layout was, and its really amazing to see how thin the 350 is between cyls.

I have an ultrasonic thickness tester that I use to test the walls. As some have pointed out some "defective" blocks (both 350 and 400) are not even safe at .030" and in my opinion would probably stand a good chance at failing at std. under a high load.

So like I said its just my opinion and Im not trying to influence any one in any direction, Im just sharing my experiences.

Good Luck
Jeff

Hey Jeff, do you sonic test before boring to .060" over or have you done enough of them to this that you know it works without testing them?

Also how much work is it to make a 3.875" stroke crank work in a 400SBC?:confused:

[Paul Wright]

I know you didn't ask me but here's my opinion on that:

I think by the time you chanced boring it out, honing, buy pistons'rings, installed splayed caps, align bored and invested in a 3.875" crank you'd have a ton of money invested in something that is inherently weak and at the borderline for failure.

I know you'll get posts from some say they didn't have a problem at .060" and some who say they have. It might be ok to risk it if you only run the stock crank and caps and don't have much into it anyway. It's when you start putting good money after bad that you get into trouble.

In my experience, EVERY time I ignore that little voice in my head telling me "you better not", it turns out bad. At the very least you should sonic check that block before sinking money into it. You may luck out and have a thick one. If it's thin, even in one bore, then you saved yourself a ton of money and anguish.

I'll tell you the $1,800 aftermarket blocks sound like a lot of money, but in the long run they are priceless. If you are building a max inch SBC they are indispensible.
Joe Sherman even uses them on smaller engines. He noticed 30 hp gain with no other changes (just swapping the rotating assembly) over from a stock block. I think you can buy a complete 427 short block with all the good parts for a reasonable price ($4,800 from Summit probably less from Bill Mitchell).
If you add up the cost of doing it twice, I'm sure it's more than that.

[69NovaSS]

I know you didn't aske me but here's my opinion on that.
I think by the time you chanced boring it out, honing, buy pistons'rings, installed splayed caps, align bored and invested in a 3.875" crank you'd have a ton of money invested in something that is inherently weak and at the borderline for failure.
I know you'll get posts from some say they didn't have a problem at .060" and some who say they have. It might be ok to risk it if you only run the stock crank and caps and don't have much into it anyway. It's when you start putting good money after bad that you get into trouble. In my experience, EVERY time I ignore the little voice in my head telling me "you better not", it turns out bad. At the very least you should sonic check that block before sinking money into it. You may luck out and have a thick one. If it's thin even in one bore then you saved yourself a ton of moeny and anguish.

I'll tell you the $1,800 aftermarket blocks sound like a lot of money, but in the long run they are priceless. If you are building a max inch SBC they are indispensible.
Joe Sherman even uses them on smaller engines. He noticed 30 hp gain with no other changes (just swapping the rotating assembly) over from a stock block. I think you can buy a complete 427 short block for a reasonable price.

Paul, thats good stuff there, I wanna hear from those with way more experence then I have and you are without a doubt in that catagory. I do hear what your saying and it wll be taken into account. 1 question on the aftermarkt blocks do they come wth finished bores or do you have to have that done? I guess with an after market 400 I would go with the standard bore and a 4" stroke I think that is how Bill Mitchell gets is 427SBC:)

[DriveWFO]

He noticed 30 hp gain with no other changes (just swapping the rotating assembly) over from a stock block.

Wow, what could that be attributed to?!

[69NovaSS]

Wow, what could that be attributed to?!

possibly the stiffer block flexes less under load so it absorbs less power then the stock block does...just guessing:confused: :confused:

[DriveWFO]

possibly the stiffer block flexes less under load so it absorbs less power then the stock block does...just guessing:confused: :confused:

If I had to guess as well, I'd say it would have something to do with the main caps and the webbing :confused:

[69NovaSS]

If I had to guess as well, I'd say it would have something to do with the main caps and the webbing :confused:

I would sorta lump that into my "stiffer block" statement I made earlier

[stock z/28]

Hi Duane.

I generally bore the cyls .025", an take the measurements with the ultrasonic tester. You can just check it with an unfinished wall, or hone it first, but a freshly finished and cleaned surface seems to offer the most reliable results.

I agree with Paul in principle, but it is like we talked before, its relative to the application vs cost.

I would price what a "finished"'. ready to assemble aftermarket block cost will actually be. Im kinda guessing it may be in the 2500-3000 range, ready for assembly, but check it around. It gets kinda confusing but a lot of aftermarket blocks need very specific "corrections" and/or modifications -repairs?---- and various standard hands on labor before they are "ready". I really recommend a very through discussion with your "local" supplier- machinist, before accessing a final cost for any aftermarket block. There is sometimes a lot of preliminary work needed. One thing I know is, I don't ever know a final cost until I scope the actual block out.

My cost now (I think) on little Ms was quoted at 2200-2300? Im not real sure I would have to check.


Good Luck
Jeff

Just to add, The HP increase mentioned may be attributed to several things, but ring seal is my main guess. Cyl wall thickness may be even more off an issue on 4in blocks than 4.125. In my experience 350 cyl walls are generally quite a bit thinner than 400s as I said earlier the siamesed cyl casting design seems to offer a far greater advantage in cyl casting. A lot of the 4in aftermarket blocks are going to be siamesed as well. Its a huge advantage in cyl wall rigidity.

In my opinion if its rotating friction increase caused by component distortion you will probably see signs of it on inspection (unusual wear).

[69NovaSS]

Hey Jeff thanks for the post. So on average an aftermarket block ready to assemble would be about 2500-3000 bucks. Do you have a guesstimate what a typical stock block "might" cost to be ready to assemble. I know there are a ton of varables involved so I know you cant be specific but a ballpark kinda guess would be helpfull.

[69NovaSS]

Just to add, The HP increase mentioned may be attributed to several things, but ring seal is my main guess. Cyl wall thickness may be even more off an issue on 4in blocks than 4.125. In my experience 350 cyl walls are generally quite a bit thinner than 400s as I said earlier the siamesed cyl casting design seems to offer a far greater advantage in cyl casting. A lot of the 4in aftermarket blocks are going to be siamesed as well. Its a huge advantage in cyl wall rigidity.

makes sense to me, thanks for the insight:)

[stock z/28]

Hi Duane,

On cost, if it were me I would find a very good local shop that provides these services. I would make this selection based on actual on track style performance and not so much on "print reputation".

I really cant stress this enough. Having a good local guy as a source and hopefully a friend is invaluable in "complex" projects.

I would go over with him what you want. I would ask him his thoughts on you buying a "kit" and involving him in it.

Buying kits now a days is such a hit and miss deal. Just as a quick example-- I balance engines as a service for my customers, carry in stuff as well as complete engines. I have several shops in my area that are actually kinda competitors, but we get along pretty well, ok back to the point, they will bring in kits that they buy that are supposed to be balanced assemblies, for me to check before they assemble them. Why? because a few that were not checked ended up with problems. So now they check them all, or buy them non balanced.

I guess my point is, in my opinion in a performance engine a very big part of the "performance" in precision work. Talking about it doesnt really mean a whole lot to me. Its being able to do it, and that will show up in results. I am not talking about flow bench, or dyno results. I am referring to on the track style results.

Sorry to ramble Duane, but I would find a very good local guy you can depend on.


Good Luck

Jeff

[Paul Wright]

I'd say ring seal also. Bore distortion can be significant on high horsepower engine because of elevated cylinder pressure and mechanical loading.
You can buy a fully prepped block for under $2,500 but I'd get the ready to assemble 427 short block with splayed caps and all forged components for $3900. Add AFR heads and a roller cam and you'll be well over 500 hp.
Check Out Bill Mitchell (http://www.theengineshop.com/) for prices.

[69NovaSS]

Hi Duane,

On cost, if it were me I would find a very good local shop that provides these services. I would make this selection based on actual on track style performance and not so much on "print reputation".

I really cant stress this enough. Having a good local guy as a source and hopefully a friend is invaluable in "complex" projects.

I would go over with him what you want. I would ask him his thoughts on you buying a "kit" and involving him in it.

Buying kits now a days is such a hit and miss deal. Just as a quick example-- I balance engines as a service for my customers, carry in stuff as well as complete engines. I have several shops in my area that are actually kinda competitors, but we get along pretty well, ok back to the point, they will bring in kits that they buy that are supposed to be balanced assemblies, for me to check before they assemble them. Why? because a few that were not checked ended up with problems. So now they check them all, or buy them non balanced.

I guess my point is, in my opinion in a performance engine a very big part of the "performance" in precision work. Talking about it doesnt really mean a whole lot to me. Its being able to do it, and that will show up in results. I am not talking about flow bench, or dyno results. I am referring to on the track style results.

Sorry to ramble Duane, but I would find a very good local guy you can depend on.


Good Luck

Jeff


I think I have found a local guy based on a few recomendations I have recieved from a couple of site members. I still have yet to actually talk to them. Hopefully they will have a current price list I can have to try and figure out what it is I will be doing. Also some of the kits I see say they are balanced to +-2 grams. And often you pay a price for that would you recommend I not pay that and just get my local guy to balance the parts? Also for a good preformance street/strip motor what tolerance for balancing would you recomend?

[DriveWFO]

I think I have found a local guy based on a few recomendations I have recieved from a couple of site members. I still have yet to actually talk to them. Hopefully they will have a current price list I can have to try and figure out what it is I will be doing. Also some of the kits I see say they are balanced to +-2 grams. And often you pay a price for that would you recommend I not pay that and just get my local guy to balance the parts? Also for a good preformance street/strip motor what tolerance for balancing would you recomend?

I'd have to dig up my spec sheet, but I think my rotating assembly is balanced within +/- .5 grams.

[69NovaSS]

I'd have to dig up my spec sheet, but I think my rotating assembly is balanced within +/- .5 grams.

Ya that is much better and I think Johnny has mentioned before that the shop he once worked in used to balance to +/- .25 grams...so I would like to know what is the norm for a performance balance job

[stock z/28]

Hello,

I would talk it over with him.

I prefer to verify everything myself or have someone that I have absolute faith in do it. Im not sure who would actually be doing these kits.

Could be a highly skilled person doing very professional job.

Could be somebody hired to get it close thats having a bad day.

In the end if you think about it who suffers if its not right? I would say the person who's reputation is at stake. If he cares-- it means a lot. Most local guys really care. Volume guys, selling a bunch, bunch of employees?

Im not saying large well known shops dont do quality work, most do. All im saying is its hands on to me.

Its kinda like a good friend of mine who builds homes for a living. He builds pretty nice homes, but he subcontracts everything. I dont think hes has ever really framed a wall. His tools are a cell phone and a lap top. Makes a lot of money, very successful.

I have another good friend that also builds homes, not as many but he is directly involved in almost every phase of the construction. His houses are generally higher priced home and take a bit longer to build, but the results generally speak for themselves. He is quite successful as well, I might add, but he gets hurt a lot more, and gets pretty dirty at times. His back is about like mine, which is not good.

If I were to buy a house I would prefer the latter friend build it. It would cost more, but it would be what I want for the purpose I want, and if there is a problem chances are I am going to be able to talk with the actual person that was involved in the area of concern. Not a "supervisor".

Again I apologize for my ramblings.

Jeff

Oh one last thing. Joe Sherman was mentioned. He has always kinda been one of my many engine builder heroes. He was the firs guy I ever saw install a stock 5.7 rod in a 3.75 stroke small block by grinding the corner off. This and other great stuff he did always stuck with me. After the first engine builders challenge (I think) FM was giving him an award for winning it at a seminar I was attending. I was hoping to meet him and talk with him. The problem was just before the event I got one of the worst colds I have ever had, but I got lucky enough to be setting a table right next to Mr. Sherman. I was going though tissues like mad and Mr. Sherman was still a great guy to talk to. I was really embarrassed, but it was a good time. I just hope he didn't get a cold, and if he did he dosent hold grudges

[stock z/28]

Hello,

Paul, when you refer to the fully prepped block do you know what that includes?

Just curious.


Jeff

[Paul Wright]

Bill Mitchell's is fairly reliable but as you know any block that's honed to a nominal spec is not as good as one with the machinist "having the actual pistons in hand". That's why buying a short block kit might be better in the long run.

I have to agree about the quality vs price comments. Unfortunately a lot of people choose their machinist by price and convenience rather than quality.
They assume that every machine shop operation is a fixed commodity so price is the only difference. I often hear "I can get that cheaper" somewhere else. They might be able to get it cheaper but it won't be as good.

[Ox65]

I got my hands on this 350 4-bolt block back when I was 16. The guy who gave it to me said it was a high nickel block, Thats what the 010 code on the back of it meant. I forgot all about it until a few days ago,when I was scraping all my crap stock SB parts I been hoarding over the years. I been doing some searching on it with no luck. Has anybody heard of this? I think he was just blowing smoke. Thanks,Ed

[Necro]

heard of it and had many, but from what ive read its not that special. just like the 020 block.

[1965proSTREET]

was that scrapping or scraping? you gettin rid of parts or cleanin them??????:D :D

j/k man, i've never heard of it...but i am a youngin!!!

[jason snyder]

Ive also heard that the (HECHO EN MEXICO) BLOCKS are higher in nickel..WHO knows..?

[Paul Wright]

All blocks have a small percentage of nickle. This may vary by foundry or even by batch. I'm sure GM controls the metalurgy because of cost. Nickle is more expensive than Iron. Adding too much wears out the tooling faster, which costs time and money to replace. They use just enough so they don't have durability problems. The cast iron mix is simply a compromise between hardness and tooling life.
I've found no credible evidence (GM documents) about the nickle content being significantly higher than normal on any production block. Bowtie and other racing blocks notwithstanding.
Jeff (StockZ/28) mentioned that he's checked hardness on many production blocks and found no appreciable difference in hardness. Until I see some verified documentation on the rumored "High Nickle" blocks, I'm saying this myth is busted.

[rodent]

I was led to believe that the blocks with the 010 and 020 cast into block under the timing cover were the highest nickel blocks :bs: who knows :confused:

[Dragnova67]

All blocks have a small percentage of nickle. This may vary by foundry or even by batch. I'm sure GM controls the metalurgy because of cost. Nickle is more expensive than Iron. Adding too much wears out the tooling faster, which costs time and money to replace. They use just enough so they don't have durability problems. The cast iron mix is simply a compromise between hardness and tooling life.
I've found no credible evidence (GM documents) about the nickle content being significantly higher than normal on any production block. Bowtie and other racing blocks notwithstanding.
Jeff (StockZ/28) mentioned that he's checked hardness on many production blocks and found no appreciable difference in hardness. Until I see some verified documentation on the rumored "High Nickle" blocks, I'm saying this myth is busted.


X2 homie!!!!!!

[oldskydog]

I was led to believe that the blocks with the 010 and 020 cast into block under the timing cover were the highest nickel blocks :bs: who knows :confused:

I would be willing to bet that the blocks you are looking at with the 010 and 020 under the timing cover and on the back under the bell housing are blocks with the casting number ending in 010 or 020. All my research so far has indicated that those numbers on the front and rear of the block are not nickle content but are the last 3 digits of the casting number of different blocks that were cast in a single particular outer mold. For instance on my warranty L-79 CE Chevy II block which is 3959538, the numbers on the front under the timing cover and on the back under the bellhousing area are 538 and 534. Obviously 538 is 3959538 and although I haven't yet seen one, I am near certain that the 534 will turn out to be a replacement Chevy II casting probably in the 283 version. The outer mold would be the same for both 283 and 327 so a single outer mold could be used for both blocks with a change to the core and the appropriate casting number placed into the holder on the mold. If you check your blocks I think you will find the last 2 or three digits of the casting number appearing in that area. The other 3 digit number(s) should tell you what other engine castings were made from the same mold.

[Pick]

I'm not a metalurgist, nor do I play one on tv, so I shirley can't say from first hand experience, but David Vizard says this in his book "Budget Building Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks:"

"The best blocks to get are the blocks that have a number 10 or 20 under the timing chain cover. These have 1% tin, and 2% nickel. The tin is used to help the metal flow better into the casting mold.

These blocks are the least prone to cracking. Also, because they pour more easily, they have the least problems with hot spots caused by porous metal. If you find a block that only has one number that's either a 10 or a 20, this means it has no additionally added tin, but does have one or two percent nickel."

Of course I'm sure Mr. Vizard could fall victim to the same urban rumors we do.

[NOVACA1N]

Usually the hot block to get is a 3970010 which is usually a high nickel 4 bolt, but I've gotten some 2 bolts with that number before. There's a 3970010 going in my car...


Joe

[72VenturaII]

The 3970010 is probably the most common block number out there. Nothing special.

[Real McCoy]

This was recently discussed here. As I said last time my good friend Wayne told me the 010 clock blocks were better blocks and all the stock block motors he built used those blocks. He fell out his boat and drown so I can't ask him how he knew that but his son and the guys who worked for him still use his rule. He got that info from someone and since he has built motors for 40 yrs before he died I figure someone smart who he respected told him that. That's all I know. RM

[65 Post]

OX, what other stuff are you scrappin? Got any steel cranks laying around? Dave

[Seattle_Mike]

I know the Bowtie blocks have a higher nickel content and are a little heavier than a standard block. You can recognize them with the Hi Perf and the Bowtie cast into the side of the block.

[the FLYER]

i don't really recall ever noticing the weight differences on small blocks, but after hefting blocks for a few years all you have to do is pick up a BBC hi-nickle block ta know what it is... Very noticeable weight difference.

i never inquired where i worked, but are the old 426 Hemi heads a hi-nickle head ??? i never saw much real difference in mass compared to a BBC head but the 426's were immensely heavy. i used ta be able to carry a pair of BBC's at a time but Hemi's Really put me to a test. Heavy suckers.

[novaBRO]

I have a block with a 010 casting and the damn thing cracked when someone over torqued the starter bolts. not me but the dude that gave me the motor FOR FREE! It could not be fixed so the whole motor was scrapped. well acctually its is rustin away in my back yard.:D

[63chevytoo]

I am not a metallurgist or lab technician. Just a Quality Auditor/ Technician. AKA (Inspector)
I work where we use all kinds of metals.
I have to verify the steel mill’s chemical and mechanical property certification papers that are supplied with the steel. Per ANSI and ASM.
Nickel is required in some or the nonferrous metals we use, for oxidation and corrosion resistance and/ or high strength in high temperature applications. Also improved electrical conductivity.
The companies I deal with use the smallest amount of nickel allowable.
Example:
If the specification requires a nickel content of, 8-11% nickel, I will find 8.2 - 8.5 (reported).
Always on the low side, but within spec. Without exception.
This is obviously because of the cost of nickel as Paul mentioned. (BTW this example of 8-11% is what we require for stainless steel.)

I believe even the block castings back in the 60-70’s still used the smallest amount of nickel due to cost. They may not have had it down to the science it is today, into the “tenths” or “hundredth” percent.
I say all this to say that the content of nickel would be miniscule to add significant strength to the casting.
I would like to see the results of a ladle analysis for one of these high nickel blocks.
It may be less than 1%
Does anybody know where we could find one of these reports?
These chemical and mechanical reports are required by us and most other companies for legal purposes in case there is a catastrophic event caused by component failure. This is the first document the lawyers want to see.

Don

[Paul Wright]

I'm not a metalurgist, nor do I play one on tv, so I shirley can't say from first hand experience, but David Vizard says this in his book "Budget Building Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks:"

"The best blocks to get are the blocks that have a number 10 or 20 under the timing chain cover. These have 1% tin, and 2% nickel. The tin is used to help the metal flow better into the casting mold.

These blocks are the least prone to cracking. Also, because they pour more easily, they have the least problems with hot spots caused by porous metal. If you find a block that only has one number that's either a 10 or a 20, this means it has no additionally added tin, but does have one or two percent nickel."

Of course I'm sure Mr. Vizard could fall victim to the same urban rumors we do.

Dave Vizard seems to be at the root of many internet legends. The problem that I've had with his statements is he never cites a reference source in his books.
Actually, I think this busts the rumor about HIGH NICKLE. If you read it it says both can have 2% Nickle but one has 1% tin and presumably the other has 0% tin.
Tin is used to promote easy pouring so it's not about the Nickle content but the TIN content. I don't think I've seen a 10-10 mark so it's either 2% Nickle and 1% Tin or 1% Nickle and low or no tin?
I'm not a metalurgist either but I'm willing to guess that the percentage of Nickle has more to do with compensating for the adding of tin than anything.
So the High TIN blocks are more likely to have consistant pours, but in reality any bad block gets scrapped so it's not going to make it into a car anyway.

The tin reduced the scrap rate from poor pours but they had to add some nickle to offset mechanical side effects from the tin. The scrap savings were more than the cost of the nickle so it was a no brainer business decision.

I'd like to find some guy who worked at Flint or Tonawanda to give us the real story.

[stock z/28]

Hello,

I will try to be brief.

I do think there are production small blocks, and big blocks that have an extra durability and maybe hardness to them. Metallurgy really interest me and I have read a lot about it, but I can honestly say I dont know any thing about it.

I know in honing blocks you see a lot of difference in cyl hardness. I use several different grade abrasive stones. Some are actually rated more for a steel than a cast.

The 010-020 thing has always kinda interested me. I think the vast majority of 350 blocks after about 71-72 or so were 010, maybe all of them. The 020, in my opinion is probably an inner mold number as someone suggested earlier. The 020 was also a common casting for the 69 307 block, certainly not a hp application.

Some of the marine 305-350 and big blocks do seem to be a better grade of material, but are generally the same casting numbers as the standard block. I have noticed similar circumstances in heavy truck and commercial blocks. Sometimes the inner mold appears to be quite a bit different and possibly thicker. I think if more or less nickel (or what ever chemistry is employed to make more durable casting) is added its done by batch and not necessarily identified by casting numbers.

I have some "chunks" from an early BOWTIE style block that was provide to a Cup team that was "damaged". I use these as a comparison to production style blocks if Im looking for a "better" casting. I generally use an AMES hardness tester with a specific style penetrater for my tests, its just really a comparison, the readings dont really have any relevance to any one but me. I have Wilson Rockwell testers as well that will give readings in various ranges, but this generally not very practical on cast iron as the readings are generally very low for a "c" style scale. I use these more for bearing races or valve seats, maybe trans. parts or gears. Even testing cranks can be difficult as most are surface hardened and that usually requires a "superficial" type of test. I think most nitiding is on about .0005-.0015 or so deep, and the diamond that you would generally use for "c" scale testing with "c" scale pressures would give very "bogus" readings. I am only mentioning all this to point out that I am no expert on metallurgy. Almost every test I do is just a comparison to a known "factor" that I have. So dont really pay a lot of attention to me and find someone who is really an engineer or visit some sites that may explain it better.

As with most things I know just enough to be dangerous, to what degree I am still determining.


Good Luck

Jeff

I guess that wasn't real brief

[shaggy]

Here is an old thread that goes into it and supposedly a foundry employee offered his explanation. I cant verify if any of the details are true facts but the member seems legitimate if you check all his back posts and offers his explanation in detail. Its interesting how he points out that the cores will sit on a shelf for days before they get poured. It seems impractical and expensive to pull specific cores and pour higher metal content for no aparent reason especially if they were not able to identify the cores before they even get poured. As you can see you get what you pay for when you purchase a bowtie block since all that extra special work that goes into making them.

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10896

[Mike Goble]

How does a high nickel block compare to a high dollar block?

[stock z/28]

On the top end?

[SteveM]

I am a metallurgist who has worked in iron foundries / nonferrous foundries, steel mills, and now a cutting tool company.

The only way to reliably check nickel content is by chemical testing. Spectroscopy is the most widely used technique used in foundries for chemical analysis. Virtually any decent iron foundry could check the nickel content, tin content, and any other element which is used in cast irons. A small chunk of material is all that would be required to check chemistry. Hardness testing will not reveal the chemical composition and could not be used as an indicator of overall quality of a casting, or of nickel content specifically.

In typical gray cast irons, nickel can be added as an alloying agent, and is typically used in quantites less than 0.5% by weight. The addition of nickel to cast irons will increase the strength of the iron without significantly increasing the hardness of the material. This allows for a higher strength casting which is still readily machinable. Other elements such as chrome and molybdenum increase the strength of cast irons, but also increase hardness, resulting in difficult machining.

Tin is normally added in very small amounts (0.05% or so) as a pearlite stabilizer. Tin promotes a particular type of microstructure (pearlite) which is desirable in cast irons.

The science of metallurgy and foundry practices is pretty well optimized for modern production methods, especially in terms of getting the maximum mechanical properties for the minimum cost. There may have been some heats of iron poured which contained higher than normal Nickel content, but I would be willing to bet that GM did not do this intentionally for specific part#'s of engine blocks.

Until I saw positive proof through chemical testing of different blocks, I will remain skeptical of any "high nickel" blocks with corresponding casting #'s.

[stock z/28]

Hello,

Steve, I dont know if you are right or not, but it makes sense to me.

When I check the hardness of a typical block, generally all I am concerned with is the cyl walls. and the way that they be able to survive in a HP application. As I said I have found some variation in passenger style blocks (enough to make it worth testing in my opinion), but you have to have a bunch of "cores' to select from. That in itself is a large problem for most people.


I guess my only question in all of this, is that if there is any really accurate and verifiable info on Chev. casting number correlation to to material.


Thanks

Jeff

[Paul Wright]

Yes, it looking more and more like the myth of the 010 & 020 casting marks meaning High Nickle content is busted.

[Seattle_Mike]

It would be interesting however to find out exactly is different when they make their special runs of Bowtie castings. The guy from the GM casting plant from the other site mentions these special runs but didn't elaborate on what was different.

[SteveM]

I suspect that GM's foundry has a very large capacity holding furnace for the iron used to cast cylinder blocks. These furnaces can be just about as big as you want to spend. (kind of like horsepower). Let's suppose they have a 50 Ton furnace which they pour from. Let's also suppose that a bare block weighs about 250 pounds (estimate). This means that they could pour up to 400 blocks from a single heat, without re-charging the furnace. Under normal production, they probably pour a little iron (maybe 10 tons), then re-charge the furnace, never fully draining it. This is a pretty efficient way to operate a high production furnace.

For a "special" production run of Bowtie blocks, they might add addional alloying material to the melt (i.e. Nickel, Copper, Tin), and then pour the entire heat of material, until it is gone. This would be a good thing to do just before a maintenance shutdown, when they would be taking the furnace down for repairs, and needing to drain the furnace anyway.

Anyway, that's my vote for how I'd do it if I were the GM Foundry Manager.

My 2 cents,

SteveM.

[Real McCoy]

I remember some years ago that all the good Ford blocks were being made in Argentina or somewhere in South America. I wonder if GM was doing something similiar? All the bowtie blocks I've seen have siamise cylinders so they have to use a different mold than the old 010 clock type blocks which are wet wall design. Somebody knows but who knows who someone is? I have no idea how we could find out the real deal. I do know Precision Products in Arden NC use to do all the roller bearing cam bearing work for GM back in the 80s. I want to call them next week about making me some wrist pins and if I remember I'll ask them what they know. They use to be real close to the GM Engineering people. RM

[Ox65]

OX, what other stuff are you scrappin? Got any steel cranks laying around? Dave

Just cast pistons,rods,stamped rockers, just junk. Any motors I'm going to build I hope I will be using better parts. I have 2 cranks both out of early 80's 350 truck motors. I'm thinking there cast.

[bowtie0069]

Some of the recent posts about 400 blocks got me curious--I had always heard the same thing everyone else brings up about the 4 bolt blocks having less "meat" around the main bearing webbing. I was just out in the garage checking out my newest 400, which is a 2 bolt that has been converted to a splayed cap 4 bolt (BTW, the 3 400 blocks I own all have 3951511 as the casting number; 2 are 4 bolts, 1 is a 2 bolt)
I don't see any discernable difference between the blocks. Where does this lack of "meat" exist?
The first photo below is the factory 4 bolt:
http://images14.fotki.com/v363/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3792-vi.jpg
This is the converted 2 bolt:
http://images20.fotki.com/v369/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3793-vi.jpg
The next image is looking thru the bore to where you can see the outside bolt hole pokes into the webbing on the factory 4 bolt block:
http://images20.fotki.com/v373/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3791-vi.jpg
The last one is the same view of the converted 2 bolt block:
http://images20.fotki.com/v380/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3790-vi.jpg
Other than the lack of a second hole, I don't see any difference--Am I missing something?

[69NovaSS]

Interesting pics Mike....I've been pondering this very thing a lot lately...heck I have mag articles from a few years back...ok more then a few years back..:rolleyes: ...that tout the 4 bolt blocks as the one to get....hopefully someone will be able to chime in with some great info on this:)

[strtlegal]

i have always heard the samething, but never really looked at them side by side..im just guessing that the overall splaying maybe stronger than a basic 4 bolt.

maybe if you splay a 4 bolt there is less meat than if you splayed a 2 bolt..maybe hell im just guessing here. because looking at your pics i cant tell them apart, besides the splayed part..they seam to be the same thickness

[KenDog]

I think the castings are the same, the difference is the factory outer bolt is in a more critical area than the splayed.

KenDog

[KenDog]

The splayed outer bolt is in a better spot than the factory, more material for the bolt and it don't need the extra hole drilled in the web.

KenDog

[stock z/28]

Hello,

Personally I would be kinda surprised if you find any thickness variations(atleast to amount to anything) in the webbing.

I have noticed that some of the cyl. wall seem to protrude a bit deeper toward the main saddles. It seems as its the early blocks that are like this. I notice this when I bore them that it gets kinda tricky with cutter body clearance at the very bottom. So there may very well be some difference there, but if any thing, I have always thought that the earlier blocks were generally a stronger block than the later in the webbing.

If it was not for the splayed bolt steel cap, I really dont see any thing wrong with the stock 4 bolt block. Like I said in another post I think the caps themselves are a better grade of cast (as compared to a 350), but Im not real sure.

I have noticed a bit more problems with the 1970 casting having a little porosity (water seeping) in the cam tunnel area. I have seen a couple that would seep there.

I have also had problems with the 74- 77 blocks having miss aligned and/or wrong sizing on the cam bores. This can be a real bear sometimes.

I think around 76-77 they added some additional cooling holes in the deck (350s did this as well) and I would really prefer the earlier deck design.

400s also seem to have a problem cracking the outer starter bolt hole. Keep an eye on that, and if you are going to use a 153 tooth flywheel on one with a conventional pattern style starter you may have to drill and tap the hole for the straight across pattern.

But besides that I guess they are trouble free, like everything else in hot rodding.

One last thing I have noticed, a lot of 350 oil pans will not clear the rod nuts on a 400 or 383 (3.750 stroke). Import pans are the worst. Look at the pan rails and see is they are kind "champhered" between the bolt holes. If they are they will usually clear a standard stroke crank/rod.
And those are very nice pics.
Jeff

[Paul Wright]

Here's my take on the situation. A long time ago 4 bolt 400's were in demand and 2 bolt blocks were shunned. I know because I had to pay "extra" for my pair of 4 bolt 400's. These were only made for a couple of years which caused a supply and demand situation. Then somewhere the legend sprouted that the 2 bolt mains were better (around the same time of the "high nickle" BS). Maybe because there were more 2 bolt blocks and people wanted to sell them, I dunno.

IMO the real story is:
if you are adding splayed caps to any SBC 400 or 350, it's better to start with a 2 bolt block because the outer bolt holes are unnecessary. No sense paying for extra bolt holes you won't be using.

ANY Block can fail if it exceeds it's capabilities or is machined or built wrong.
At some point an aftermarket block is a better foundation than one designed to putter around in a Caprice.

[stock z/28]

Hello,


The first instance that I can remember a 2bolt block being preferable to a 4 bolt was actually in the middle 70s with big block chevy Super Stock engines and pulling tractors. They had legitimate issues with cracks forming in the threads on the outer bolt holes.

I have never really heard the theory that the 400 4 bolt was weaker than the than a stock 2 bolt.

But in my opinion there is no caparison between the stock 4 bolt and 2 bolt converted to steel splayed caps. Adding steel conventional style 4 bolt (stock outer bolt angle) caps with arp studs is (in my opinion) a very good 2nd choice.

Jeff

[Real McCoy]

I didn't study anything but it always made sense to me that the old holes had to be a weak spot compared to a block with no hole there. Don't have a ton of experience with the 400 cause we do so many 350 motors for dirt guys and the late model big SB motors are all aluminium blocks around here. RM

[stock z/28]

Hello.


Just to complicate the issue the only 4 bolt 400 I have ever seen crack in the outer bolt hole was a bone stock one out of a 71 wagon that was probably never run hard in its life. It was good friend of mines car and we still used it for a pick up of his. That was about 20 years ago and I think it still hauls wood.

I have seen several instances where a very high out put motor would "pull" the caps in, at the parting line, and the steel caps seemed to solve it.

The aftermarket blocks appear to be the way to go, but it still seems you drop about 3gs before they are really ready to short block. It might be the better value in the long run but its a herd pill for a lot of people i know to swallow
Jeff.

[bowtie0069]

At some point an aftermarket block is a better foundation than one designed to putter around in a Caprice

I was about to break down and spend the money for a Dart block when my buddy came thru with this deal. I was having a really hard time deciding on the Dart because I'm such a cheap SOB, so when this one came up I had to jump.
As you can see in the photos, this block has a ton of work done to it, everything has casting flash ground off, debris screens are in several drainback areas, the end gasket surfaces have tiny threaded inserts( I'm not sure why he did this, other than he's an engineer who likes to tinker) The big coolant holes have been plugged and the small ones too. Look at the pipe plugs in the lifter valley(they each have 3 small holes) The block has a fresh .020 over bore and hone, and I paid $200!!
http://images14.fotki.com/v377/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3780-vi.jpg
http://images8.fotki.com/v145/photos/4/42437/132535/IMG_3783-vi.jpg
Well, for some reason I can't get the other pix to work so.........

[stock z/28]

Sounds like a great deal BowTie.

One thing I think I see in one photo is it appears the timing chain maybe rubbing the block directly above the center oil gallery.

Im not trying to interfere and you probably noticed this (if it is hitting). I grind about every block I do in that area any more. The double roller stands a good chance of hitting there.


Jeff:nascar:

[Nova Bob]

very good point!stock z-28!

[Little Red Wagon!]

I have a question for you guy's. How much can a 400 factory block(509 casting #'s)and is a 2 bolt main's take? HP wise. I have one that is making 449.3 HP and 498.8 FT LBS. Just want to know if this motor is at it's limit. Do I need to go to a after market block? I want to drop the comp. and put a Procharger on it.:rolleyes:

[bowtie0069]

the timing chain maybe rubbing the block

I just put the block on the stand yesterday; I'll mock it up before final assy.
I've only had 1 block ever make contact there, but this could be the next!

Just want to know if this motor is at it's limit. Do I need to go to a after market block?

My buddy ran a 509 block in a Nova that ran high 9's, but it was half filled with Hardblok. It had over 350 passes before he changed to an aftermarket block, but still checked ok.