Melling oil pump problems

[YIK YAKS 67 SS]

got my M55 stock sbc oil pump delivered today, inside the box was a warning that if I had solid motor mts. Im supposed to use a Melling 'select" oil pump. What difference does it make if I have solid mounts? Is it vibration related since the M55 pickup is not welded in. Should I get the other pump or can I have this one tack welded in if this is the problem? Thanks in advance, Bruce.

[Mike Goble]

got my M55 stock sbc oil pump delivered today, inside the box was a warning that if I had solid motor mts. Im supposed to use a Melling 'select" oil pump. What difference does it make if I have solid mounts? Is it vibration related since the M55 pickup is not welded in. Should I get the other pump or can I have this one tack welded in if this is the problem? Thanks in advance, Bruce.

Lots of gnashing and thrashing going on around the hot rod world about this subject:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153113&highlight=melling
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143630&highlight=melling
http://forums.godragracing.com/viewtopic.php?t=36095&highlight=

[Fastnuf]

Just read the melling threads at the other forums. All I can say is thank god I have a Titan billet oil pump.

[YIK YAKS 67 SS]

Mike, after reading the posts on the chevelle website Im more confused than normal, would I be better off using my old stock pump and returning the Melling. The old one was working fine, but since I had the motor out I figured I change it. Whats a poor boy to do?

[Real McCoy]

I have no idea what Mike will say but I inspect my pump when I freshen up a motor and if it is all good I stay with it. The only time I change one is when something is worn or it breaks. I have not seen many wear but I have broken several on the BBs. Besides I weld the pick ups in so if I replace the pump I have to get another put up as well. Mike or others may have a different opinion. RM

[Mike Goble]

As far as re-using the old one, I would unless this was a serious performance setup. If it was working fine when you tore the engine down, why wouldn't it work again? You could take it apart and look at it to see if there are problems inside. If my choice was to either use a new suspicious pump or an old good one, I'll take the old one.

On the other hand, oil pumps are relatively inexpensive and I don't think Mellings is the only manufacturer of oil pumps for SBC's. Have you looked at Dynagear, Manley, or finding a new old-style Mellings?

[Paul Wright]

The problem is a combination of factors that could fracture the pump at the narrow part of the pump.

The SBC oil pump is a mass suspended from a single bolt which creates what engineers call a "lever arm" configuration. Race car solid motor mounts and that "cool" lumpy race car idle can create a vibration problem that causes the pump to "buzz". This can lead to cracking and casting failure.
I think the "Select" pumps have extra material in the potential failure area.

I have tons of experience in oil pumps and systems. Every failure I've seen in a hot rodded street car is because of misguided imitation of real race cars.
Real race cars arrive on trailers and are constantly being serviced. Unless you are willling to tear down your engine every 500 miles and replace components regularly, then it's not better to use race car parts. A typical Nascar race car would be incredibly fragile if you could drive it legally on the street.

I always say be careful when you wish for more power, you might also get more of what you don't want.

IMO, No true street car "needs" solid motor mounts. Use stock mounts and a torque limiter if you honestly have that much torque. If you simply must have a solid mount, another tip is to just use ONE solid mount on the drivers side which is the side in tension. Use a self locking nut so the engine can rotate on the cross bolt and the engine can still "float" on the opposite elastomer mount. NVH will be better than using two hard mounts but it will perform the same function. Sell the extra hard mount to your buddy so he can do the same thing,

[bowtie0069]

A few years ago when the new Mellings units hit the magazines, I bought one because of the bolt-on pickup, and slightly higher pressure over stock. Not long after, the pickup UNBOLTED itself and caused a bit of a problem--back to Moroso for a standard volume/standard pressure pump.

[IgnitionMan]

I do it differently.

Pump: I use a stock 427 425 horse 5 bolt pump in ALL the small blocks I build, even the stokers. I change the bolts to drilled Allen bolts, so I can safety wire them into place, and add two braces to the pickup, that bolt it to the pump.

Mouonts: As far as solid mounts go, if I go that way, I use ONLY ONE of the engine mounts, on the driver's side only. The pass side and trans are left rubber.

There just isn't a need for all the mounts to weld the engine into the chassis.

[new2novas]

i am using solid mounts in mine for a couple of reasons and none of them are for any imitation of a "race" car and this subject is something i am hearing about for the first time....to me it seems like the motor is going to vibrate whether is in a rubber mount and just vibrating itself or if its the whole car....i'm interested in finding out if this is something i should really be concerned about

[Paul Wright]

i am using solid mounts in mine for a couple of reasons and none of them are for any imitation of a "race" car and this subject is something i am hearing about for the first time....to me it seems like the motor is going to vibrate whether is in a rubber mount and just vibrating itself or if its the whole car....i'm interested in finding out if this is something i should really be concerned about

When the engine is restrained, the vibration at the pump is intensified and it vibrates like a tuning fork. If the engine is allowed to float the vibration is absorbed by the rubber and the intensity is reduced.

Take a tuning fork and wack it on a table. Try touching the handle to a hockey puck and then a metal pie plate. Hold the plate and then the puck in your hand to feel how the vibration is intensified or reduced.

Am I the only one who watched "Mr. Wizard" science show as a kid?

btw, if your car needs solid mounts then Kev will go outside and do the Macarana in his skivvies.

[Dragnova67]

What if you use motor plates and a moroso external pump???? :p

[bowtie0069]

I run all solid mounts--is that what rattled the red loctited bolts loose on my Mellings pump? Oh well, I'll keep using the Moroso pump.

[Pro-touring72]

I run solid mounts but I put them on before they made Urethane ones. I got tiered of the rubber units ripping apart. Im thinking of doing what Mr Wright said with the rubber on the pasenger side and solid on the drivers.

But after reading all this crap Im going to toss the melling pump for a SpeedPro or something.


****I changed my mind*****
I went to the garage and i have the old design that looks like the MSelect.
On right is the weak model. Left is a Mselect
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/3658/alex028yf6.jpg

[new2novas]

paul that makes a bit more sense....and i only wish that (and i'm assuming you meant) i make enough power to warrant HAVING to have solid mounts, it has to do with clearance issues (i made my front clip:rolleyes: ) so header to firewall and oil pan to crossmember and header to steering linkage and and and :sleep:...

now whens that video of kev gonna be up on you-tube hahaha

oh and hey mister wizard was awesome...i will never foret seeing him boil the water in that metal can then putting it in some ice water or something and the thing imploded....AWESOME HAHA

[YIK YAKS 67 SS]

Many thanks to all who responded to this thread. I am going to take the advice of Mike and Paul and go with the solid mount on the drivers sdie only. Im going to keep the pump that was in the engine, but I had to borrow the pick up bottom of the new pump, and use it on the old one, as the pick up which was welded in the old pump, will not work with my new moroso deep sump pan. Hopefully there is no problems with that part of the melling pump. Thanks again.

[stock z/28]

Hi,

I have used torque straps with stock mounts, and solid mounts on street cars. I agree that the solid mounts will create a situation where various harmonics may be more (or less) severe.

In my opinion in these case its just a smoke screen to cover a poor (strength wise) design oil pump.
My youngest daughter and I recently built a street 92 camaro for her to bracket race a little (she will get her license in a few months), and I used solid mounts for better header clearance, I'm not even sure the headers would clear the stock "cup" style block mount. This car will not get a bunch of miles on it, but I'm not going to worry about solid mounts, Im just not going to use a weak oil pump.


To be honest I wont even use that pump in "stock" engines that may be mounted in foam rubber and float in air. To me its kind of a joke to weaken a design and then find a few "causes" for failure.

I Tig weld the screens to the pump body with nickel or silicon bronze filler rod, and that seems to work well. Some of these deep or extended pic ups do concern we (in regard to vibration) as of greater mass and increased length form the mounting point. I generally try and add a few braces to protect the tube from vibration, but (knock on wood) the main body generally stays crack free (I have Magnafluxed a few).

I guess I will just avoid those pumps.

Sorry to ramble
Jeff

[David_D.]

This has been a very interesting subject. I have read quite a bit about it on this site: http://drr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/80760912/m/8711073162

It appears that Melling manufactures pumps for SpeedPro, Moroso, etc. I need to re-read to find out when Melling made the change, so I can determine if my pump needs to be changed.

[Hawk1]

Not being able to find any pictures that show which pump style I have (old vs new), and not wanting to drop the pan, I'll be swapping out the solid Moroso mounts I have in place now. Any suggestions as to which alternative mounts to go with? I've looked at the Energy Suspension, Prothane, and the stock two piece style with rubber between. Not sure which to go with? Would the ES or Prothane be too stiff in this situation?

Energy Suspension
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/ens-3-1115g.jpg

Prothane
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/ptp-7-505-bl_w.jpg

Stock Style
http://i1.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/7b/df/8bb0_1.JPG

[Paul Wright]

Reading some of the posts on the other sites, it looks like hysteria is setting in.
Clearly there has been a change for the worse because I don't recall this problem happening in the past. I can't believe it's a weight issue that prompted the lightweight castings. These pumps aren't used in production vehicles anymore. It has to be a cost issue. The initial cost may be lower but the warranty cost has got to be higher. The cost of losing customer trust is un imaginable.

Here's a chance for someone to make some money by building a good and reliable pump. Trouble is that Melling has the rights to produce the GM design and so you have to go to them to get pumps. That's why Moroso, Speedpro and TRW and others all use Melling made pumps or components.
I had come up with a new design but tooling and start up cost were more than I could afford.

[stock z/28]

Hello,

I agree Paul, there's more to the story than weight, and I cant really understand GMs involvement. It may not only be an amount of material, it may be the actual type of cast material that they are using. Maybe its a little more brittle.

Im not real sure that Melling has an exclusive deal for Chev oil pumps. I have different pumps in stock and Im pretty sure that they not are all cast by Melling.

[stock z/28]

Hello again,

As far as warranty costs go Paul, one of the things that ticks me off, is that in the automotive aftermarket it seems the warranty cost (in time and money) is placed on the engine builder or owner and not the manufacturer. I really don't understand this. It seem Im always out my time, and if Im LUCKY I may get a replacement part for "free".

Im really about fed up with this aspect of this business. Its about time a "group" of us formed to bring some leverage to issues of this type.

I really don't know the issues here, and am certainly not placing any blame, but any time I have to worry about an engine mount to prevent an oil pump from breaking off it kinda makes me wonder. Maybe if we added a balance shaft and some type of vibration absorbing flywheel they could change the pump a little more?


Jeff

[nabit]

I keep hearing people complain about the melling oil pumps but I never see anyone reccomend a differnt one. I have a 496 bbc with roller cam that has the oil restrictors and I was wondering what is a good oil pump to run? I see the melling, sealed power and the moroso ones that look like a regular pump and then the WILDLY expensive morosos ones..


So what is a good one to go with? I am lookingat 68000-7000rpm max rpm with my engine, and also i was thinking about running standard pressure.

If anyone has any suggestions please join in!!

[bowtie0069]

Well, I only run small blocks, but as far as I'm concerned the Moroso standard pressure/standard volume pump is all any small block under 10,000 rpm needs. I think they're still around $50.

[nabit]

That's what I was looking at but for a bbc and they are 70..

thanks!!

anyone else??

[Paul Wright]

Get one from GM?. Milodon has a new SBC casting made from better grade of iron than Mellings. Not sure if they make a BBC one with the same material.

[David_D.]

I haven't heard anyone complain about the big block Melling pump. The complaint they have about the small block pump is that the casting was changed (lightened) and now people are experiencing problems with it cracking and breaking off in performance applications with solid motor mounts. Melling has a new line of small block pumps that are supposed to resolve the issue. They are the Melling Select line of performance pumps.

As far as I know, the Sealed Power and Moroso, pumps are manufacterd by Melling. I'm not sure who manufactures the Milodon pump.

[T. Jerman]

So what is a good one to go with? I am lookingat 68000-7000rpm max rpm with my engine, and also i was thinking about running standard pressure.

68000 rpm :eek: :eek:
oil pump would be the least of my worries:p :D
Good luck and Happy New Year!!!!!

[DriveWFO]

If you guys would like to see some of the blueprinting Paul did on my BRAND NEW out-of-the-box M55 pump, click on the link below and then click on the Oiling System gallery.

http://www.badassnovas.com/BANPics.jsp

[Paul Wright]

If there's enough interest, I might build a short run of custom PW blueprinted pumps using good castings (I'm not a business this is just for board members).
The big problem with doing that is the the different pan/pickup configurations and pickup depths. Maybe just standard depth to start. any interest?

[DriveWFO]

If there's enough interest, I might build a short run of custom PW blueprinted pumps using good castings (I'm not a business this is just for board members).
The big problem with doing that is the the different pan/pickup configurations and pickup depths. Maybe just standard depth to start. any interest?

Sure, I was your first customer. You're on your way to becoming a millionaire :)

[nabit]

So what is a good one to go with? I am lookingat 68000-7000rpm max rpm with my engine, and also i was thinking about running standard pressure.

68000 rpm :eek: :eek:
oil pump would be the least of my worries:p :D
Good luck and Happy New Year!!!!!

yeah I figured I would let up early....lol

nice catch there....6800-7000 rpm...

[nabit]

If there's enough interest, I might build a short run of custom PW blueprinted pumps using good castings (I'm not a business this is just for board members).
The big problem with doing that is the the different pan/pickup configurations and pickup depths. Maybe just standard depth to start. any interest?

and what would this cost with pump? I will be using a kicked out 6qt pan, I can measure the depth or whatever you need...

I am thinking about the sealed power pump at the moment with standard perssure and volume..

[Scooter]

Would the PW pump work with a front sump or am I stuck with the Chevy2only pump?

[Paul Wright]

Would the PW pump work with a front sump or am I stuck with the Chevy2only pump?
This proposal is for rear sump pumps. The front sump proposal is in Best of Tech. So far not enough response to make a production run of trick parts worthwhile. Tooling costs outweigh demand.

I can blueprint, modify Chevy2Only/Melling front sump pumps to Durango Deuce specs and make one-off steel collar driveshafts but because the pickup is so funky to setup, I'd need the pan as well if it's not stock. The stock pan isn't very good; the Aviaid is expensive AND they require a core.

[Nwayne]

I'm in for the rear sump, standard depth.

[Scooter]

What kind of advantages does the blueprinting offer? More pressure? More volume? Easier operation? More durability?

-Aaron

[stock z/28]

Hi,

The support shafts into the cover seem to be a nice touch on these style pumps.


Jeff

[Paul Wright]

Update:
Ok, I think I found the (W)right pump housing. It's made in the USA from good iron,(40,000 psi tensile), CNC internals and has extra material in the neck area. I ordered a few samples @ regular price since I've only had three people respond. They should be reasonable in quantity, but I didn't bother discussing "how many" with them since I only had 3 responses. I'll post the group buy details in the For Sale section once I figure out what this is costing me. If nobody is interested then I won't get anymore.
Aftermarket Pickups are the most expensive part ($50 and up) so if you need a special pickup that's going to effect the price dramatically. It may be easier to get your own pickup and send it to me. I'd need to know actual distance from pump mounting surface to pan bottom for proper setup.
Much cheaper with a stock pickup but even the stock depth Milodon or Canton pickups are much better and have a support brace.

[65 Post]

Well, I just bought one of Reher Morrisons racing pans kits, and it's a Moroso pan with some added baffling, and a Melling pump with a tig welded pickup on it. Along with the kit is a gasket, pump stud, windage tray and studs. Can't wait to run it and see if it cures my "0" oil pressure in the shutdown. I've run mellings for over 25 years and I'm not changing till it falls off. Dave

[Nwayne]

Anything going on with this?:sleep:

[Paul Wright]

I got the first 3 pumps last week. They look pretty good. Pumps are made from the same alloy as brake rotors. The necks have a decent amount of material. Interestingly enough they advised me not to weld the pickups. They said the inlet has the correct press fit. Just freeze the pickups with dry ice and press fit only. Welding not required. I haven't taken one apart yet to measure clearances or install the springs.
Pricing depends on quantity so in low volume these would be a lot more than the typical mail order Melling pumps. Other projects taking my time and we didn't get much response on this so these may just go to the first three people that wanted one. I was going to put serial numbers on them. Limited issue PW pumps!

[Dan_Lebherz]

I got this from a Camaro site I still visit.
First I heard of this.
I don't know if any of you have picked up on this but it has to do with a change Melling made in their oil pump castings and it sounds like the weaker castings may have some problems.


http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65870

[Paul Wright]

That's old news. This is what happens when cost reductions go too far.
I've been working on a solution with a special made in USA 40,000 psi "brake rotor" casting but the response so far has been underwhelming. It's just as well. Supplier can only get me 4 more right now anyway. Next batch of castings won't be ready for 60 days!
See my ad in Services offered (http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=513483#post513483) for a picture of the solution.
Oh, btw, Melling will sell you a billet pump for about $400.

[69SSAcadian]

That's old news. This is what happens when cost reductions go too far.
I've been working on a solution with a special made casting but the response so far has been underwhelming.

Guess I've been out of the loop, first I've heard of it. Thanks for posting that Dan. I'll be checking my pumps!

[Mitchc]

Funny this should come up. I just purchased a new oil pump from Mellings. 10553 Mellings Select. I always take the pump apart and clean adn inspect. One of the cap screws looked like it was not tight. I tried to tighten with my fingers and it came off in my hand.. The other 3 screws were loose.. I wrote Mellings and they are sending me a new pump overnight. I'm so glad I inspect the pumps because who knows what would happen if I didnt.. The screws look like thay are cast..

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g298/mitch_cox_kc/102_1121.jpg

That's old news. This is what happens when cost reductions go too far.
I've been working on a solution with a special made in USA 40,000 psi "brake rotor" casting but the response so far has been underwhelming. It's just as well. Supplier can only get me 4 more right now anyway. Next batch of castings won't be ready for 60 days!
See my add in Services offered.
Oh, btw, Melling will sell you a billet pump for about $400.

[DriveWFO]

Check out my website for pictures on the M55 blueprinting that Paul did for me. I have one of their "new" pumps.

http://www.badassnovas.com/BANPics.jsp

[69SSAcadian]

Funny this should come up. I just purchased a new oil pump from Mellings. 10553 Mellings Select. I always take the pump apart and clean adn inspect. One of the cap screws looked like it was not tight. I tried to tighten with my fingers and it came off in my hand.. The other 3 screws were loose.. I wrote Mellings and they are sending me a new pump overnight. I'm so glad I inspect the pumps because who knows what would happen if I didnt.. The screws look like thay are cast..

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g298/mitch_cox_kc/102_1121.jpg

Those 'screws' look really cheap...good thing you caught that.

[Paul Wright]

Check out my website for pictures on the M55 blueprinting that Paul did for me. I have one of their "new" pumps.
Yours was the last Melling cast pump I did. I just sent out the latest brake rotor casting PW pumps to members Tom Griffin and Nicky Watters. I'll keep making improvements but I feel confident these pumps won't break. I use better bolts, too!

[stock z/28]

Hello,


A couple years ago a good friend of mine used the new Melling race pump with the hex drive and bolt on screen on his 377. He uses a rather complex pan with quite a few wipers and trays, and the pan has fairly large kick out.

Long story short-- 110 lbs of oil pressure. Pull the pan, no easy task. look the pump over, talk to Melling get a new one. Same problem.


We ended up taking the pumps to a trade show and showed them to the Melling engineer, he didnt have much of an answer. So we used a modified big block pump, that I modify the the bypass orifice on, it was fine.

We worked on the hex drive style pump an eventually got it sorted out, but it was a hassle.

The later pumps with the weak housing is a joke in my opinion.


I have 5 very nice looking pumps that a company sent me that look great, but they are imported, and Im kinda scared to use one. Maybe if I build something for myself Ill try one.

Jeff

Those cover bolts have always been an issue.

When I TIG the screen on the pumps I notice that a some of the companies use a pretty poor quality cast (atleast as far as welding it goes). Some weld very nice some dont.

[Tom Griffin]

I have 5 very nice looking pumps that a company sent me that look great, but they are imported, and Im kinda scared to use one. Maybe if I build something for myself Ill try one.

Ha... maybe you and PW could hook up and he could become your oil pump supplier :D

Tg

[ERV JR]

Anyone Have Any Info On The Oil Pumps From Car Shop Inc ?

[Mitchc]

I got home today and found my new Mellings Select pump waiting at the door. Still had the cheap looking hex screws. I pulled the pump appart and cleaned and checked the pressure regulator. Put some grade 8 6mm screws with locks. Put in the motor and have real good oil pressure.


Funny this should come up. I just purchased a new oil pump from Mellings. 10553 Mellings Select. I always take the pump apart and clean adn inspect. One of the cap screws looked like it was not tight. I tried to tighten with my fingers and it came off in my hand.. The other 3 screws were loose.. I wrote Mellings and they are sending me a new pump overnight. I'm so glad I inspect the pumps because who knows what would happen if I didnt.. The screws look like thay are cast..

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g298/mitch_cox_kc/102_1121.jpg

[Tom Griffin]

Anyone Have Any Info On The Oil Pumps From Car Shop Inc ?


We all know the importance of an oil pump. Seriously... for the small price difference I don't know why you would not contact Paul and have him build one for you. I recieved mine today, it is a real work of art. Very nice piece for the price.

Tg

[mrhockey]

Anyone Have Any Info On The Oil Pumps From Car Shop Inc ?

I was running a Melling for several years with no issues but I read about these in Fastest Street Car magazine and ordered this one after talking with the tech guy. I think his name was Jim, Joe, John.........something like that.

http://dynamicperformance.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/88917/55HVCPRQC

If you grab an issue of the newest magazine check out the feature on the blue nova.;)

[mrhockey]

We all know the importance of an oil pump. Seriously... for the small price difference I don't know why you would not contact Paul and have him build one for you. I recieved mine today, it is a real work of art. Very nice piece for the price.

Tg

They look and sound good. Too bad I didn't see this earlier.

[Paul Wright]

Thanks Tom, I'm glad you like it! It's not exactly chrome plated but I do put a lot of work into each one. Note on the CarshopInc pump: I don't use the "high volume" design because it is a waste of power. $79 is not a bad price except there's no pickup and it's out of stock.
Most mail order pumps don't have the pickup installed much less to the correct position or TIG welded properly (spring/piston removed and welded in a fixture to prevent warping).
For example DriveWFO's pump had the pickup welded on by his supplier and it was definitely warped. I use machinist dye and a surface plate to identify high and low spots. It takes careful wet sanding by hand to get the surface flat and the gear clearance to the minimum spec for optimum performance. It's not rocket science as I like to say:
"Winners do the things that losers can't be bothered with"

[Nwayne]

We all know the importance of an oil pump. Seriously... for the small price difference I don't know why you would not contact Paul and have him build one for you. I recieved mine today, it is a real work of art. Very nice piece for the price.

Tg

I'll second that! Mine is very nice. I'll try to post a picture.

[David_D.]

When I heard that there was an issue with the Melling pump, I was a bit concerned because I installed one on my 383 last year. I got to checking and found the date they changed the casting and luckily, my pump was purchased a year before they made the change. I have the old casting which to my knowledge hasn't had any issues.

BTW, Melling manufactures pumps for many companies that put their names on them such as Speed Pro, Moroso (I believe), and maybe others.