The unofficial CPP lower A-arm write-up! (2nd gen)

I guess Im the first one here to install the CPP lower A-arm setup so I thought Id do a little write-up about it.

Here are the main pieces that come with the kit(with the ball joints installed):
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290025.jpg

Im lucky enough to have a shop to work in so it made the job that much easier!
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290023.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290022.jpg

Here is a couple before shots of the front suspension:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290024.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290026.jpg

The suspension removal is very simple and straightforward. The only PIA is removing the rivets that hold the strut rod buckets(mounts). I started by cutting one with a cutting wheel but after about 5 minutes and very little progress I brought out my air chisel. The old rivets are very hard so they took between 5 and 10 minutes a piece to remove(10 total). This step is by far the most time consuming. A punch worked good to clear the holes once the rivet head was chiseled off. When it was all done it looked something like this:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290027.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290028.jpg

Here is the removed parts:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3290029.jpg

Next you will need to remove(or just move) the radiator to access the front 4 holes where the rivets used to be to remove the remaining part of the rivet and put in the new bolts for the CPP A-arm subframe. The bolt head must be on the top(radiator side) and the nut on the bottom- if you try to install it the other way the radiator will hit the nut.

The subframe goes on next- its pretty simple and self explanatory. I put in the subframe with only hand tightening the bolts- this made fitting the A-arms in MUCH easier. The A-arms are a pretty tight fit but they fit. If you are working on your back you may be cussing and yelling, but I would'nt know anything about that!:D Make sure you follow CPP's directions when installing the eccentric bolts into the arms. After the eccentric bolts were in, I tightened up the subframe. Then I installed the ball joints- pretty self explanatory. GOOD NEWS: MY GIANT 1 1/8" SWAY BAR FITS!!! And thats pretty much it! It took me a total of about 4 hours including an alignment for this job- not too bad. Here is what it looks like when its done:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300030.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300031.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300032.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300033.jpg

Here are a couple pics showing the swaybar clearance. Its a pretty close fit, but everything clears nicely and does not hit! Keep in mind my car is at stock height- if your car is lowered the large swaybar with probably hit.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300034.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300035.jpg

Lastly I did an alignment. I dont use the exact specs for 1st and 2nd gen Novas- I found some slight changes to be very helpful with comfortable street driving and high speed stability for the race track. Alignment was very easy with the two sets of eccentrics. I will check the alignment again after I put some miles on it.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300036.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/P3300037.jpg

After I finished the install I went for a short drive(about 15 miles) and I must say I am happy with the results. The front end feels VERY solid- the sloppy feeling of the control arms moving laterally and twisting is gone. The suspension feels nice and tight to where Im not afraid of turning a corner at more than 10 mph! There are no clunks, creeks, squeeks, or anything else of the sort. The car is still road crown sensitive so I will try to improve it by adding a little caster on the passenger side when I recheck my alignment. On flat roads it tracks nice and straight. The car is also very stable and predictable at high speeds(I only went about 80mph). I will have more feedback as I drive it more.

do you think this will solve all the first and second gen's alignment problems?

So far so good- I checked the eccentrics after my drive and they did not move. Alignment was also much easier- with the stock suspension on the laser alignment machine the measurements would jump around without me even touching the adjustments. When I aligned this kit the measurements stayed put.

Did it by any chance move the tire back for more front fender clearance? I doubt it but thought I would ask.

Miles:D

No- I wish! I only have about 1/2" clearance from my tire to the front fender.

Brian, thanks for the great writeup. A pic of the alignment screen, even! Outstanding. For those of you who want to wade through the huge thread that led up to this, it's right here (http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33290).

Question- about how much torque did you put on those eccentrics? I know that Lee recommended 100lbs on the stock setup.

I didnt torque them but I probably tightened them to about 60 ft-lbs. We'll see how it holds up- but Im pretty confident they wont move.

Question for you, is that a heat barrier of some sort that you have wrapped around your trans lines? If so, what is it called?, does it work? and where do you get it?
I have some heat wrap meant for exhaust held on with aluminum tape over the trans lines. On top of that I wrapped the lines with some rubber type tape that has no adhesive- but it bonds to itself. I believe it is similar to "duckseal". I bought it at a rally race I was in from a vendor in the pits- so I have no idea where to get it now! I put that on there to keep anything from rubbing through the aluminum tape.

Still haven't got mine in but did talk again to Jim at CPP. Really a nice, concerned car guy. He's still watching the posts and taking the suggestions and criticisms to heart. OK, heres the latest, Jim and the creative minds would like some input on whether shorter arms (both these lowers and their "new uppers") would be desireable. They are looking for input and any advice regarding the possible change in length from stock. Lets see what people say as it might help the developement of some cool new stuff. If I can get Jim's approval I'll see if photos of the new upper are available. You know cool spy photos. Please help with your thoughts

Sean

PS NOGO I sent you a pm:rolleyes:

I love this set up and according to Brian (NOGO) it seem to work great too.

1) Does it eliminate the need for a lock out kit?

2) Is there a tubular Upper A arm coming and will it have a differnet offset for camber adjustment?

3) Does CPP offer different front springs to enhance this kit?


James:D

Hey Nogo:

I am sure this question has been answered but how exactly do you set Caster with this set up? and...do the lower/rear eccentrics adjust camber like the stock suspension. What does the lower/front eccentrics adjust?:o

Sorry for the dumb questions.:D

Dave:beer:

Caster is set from the relation of the two eccentrics on each arm at the same time. Essentially, you have to set caster AND camber at the same time. This can be a little tricky for an alignment newbie, but since there are MANY vehicles with this type of alignment adjustment, your average alignment tech should be able to set it pretty quick(It took me about 30 min).

I know some people have been sceptical about the use of eccentrics but I could see how you wouldn't need a lock out. as nogo said there are many cars with this design... and there are many differnt cars that use essentrics with out any problems. Besides, with 2 essentrics for each lower control arm, it would relive a lot of the stress that the stock setup puts on one ecentric.

Holy smokes batman!! I just finished up the install of the new tube control arms. These babies are worth every freakin' penny! Not only are they nice quality pieces that come powder coated, but they make all the difference in the world. I just took mine around the block, but the improvement on ride and just the "solid feel" was astonishing! I can honestly say that was the best $350 that I have spent in a long long time....Cant wait for them to come out with some more improvements, because I am sold on thier products!

Jack

For some reason, welded A-arms scare me for street driving. I'd be worried about QC on the welds, as I've seen many photos of welded arms for other vehicles that broke on potholes, etc.

I am SURE CPP does not have the budget for extensive fatigue testing (nor do any of the other companies making this stuff), so I think I'll wait for the "field test" data to come in. ;)

Not knocking CPP... there are just some areas where I feel better running factory stuff that was engineered by GM and proven over 40 or so years.

The stress in an racing car, that uses A-arms in tubular steel thats welded is greater than factory paerts exposed for ordinary driving even for 40 years or more,

Ive helping in a racing team home build and with tubular a-arms thats welded and every race lasts fore ½ hour testing ½ hour time qualifying and 3 hour race WOT to near stop kurves and straits hitting the curbs and rubbing other weikles in a 3 (sometimes 8 ) hour battle and this is for season to season Ive been in this team for a couple of years now and we never have had anya problems with the A-arms and welds.. cluthes, brakes, tires, and damagde body parts, broken transmissions and so on.. but not the A-arms..

AND this weekend we where racing again and a couple of racing insidents ocured... som fender benders and rearending, not much we finished the race :D broke the cluths and servo stearing pump.. thats racing.

We did a checkup on all parts and found a crac in one of the tubes to one A-arm but NOT in the weld..

So I consider these parts (tubular A-arms) to be better than stock..
MY opinion.

Ps many racers that uses ther nova on the streets do a boxWeld on the stock lover arm so it will bee stiffer and hold better... thats how good stockparts are. Ds

I don't understand the 2" ground clearance. Does it mean with this kit you will only have 2" of clearance? Thats not very much. Help me understand.

The kit provides and additional 2" of ground clearance in the front by removing the strut rod braces from the original setup on the front subframe.

Removing these braces provides additional ground clearance up front. It doesn't reduce ground clearance to 2". That'd be insane. :)

A stupid question or thought though..........

Since the strut rod is eliminated, I assume that it has nothing to do with aligning, but only to prevent front-to-back movement of the flimsy lower arm on these beasts??The strut rod adjusts the Caster. Tighten the strut rod (shorten) and you gain caster (+) as it pulls the lower control arm towards the front of the car, you losen the strut rod (lengthen) and you lose caster (-) as it pushes the lower control arm back.

With the CPP kit, NOGO states the caster and camber are a simultaneous adjustment since there are eccentrics on both front and rear of the lower A-frame control arm.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.:D

Dave

Sunday was my first chance to put the CPP kit to the real test. I drove about40 miles to the races yesterday, raced all day, drove back home, then went cruising down the beach for a couple hours. I did everything from 60-70 mph freeway cruising, city/beach traffic driving, and high speed racing without a glitch. The kit has basically solidified an otherwise weak and unstable front end. The car drives noticably straighter and is less sensitive to changes in road conditions. It is also more stable at high speeds and under heavy braking. I feel much more comfortable when Im doing 100+ mph(legally...of course:D )!

Also, its important to note that too much front caster can cause front tire to front fender interference!!! I noticed yesterday that I had less than .25" of clearance between my left side tire and the front edge of my fender when my wheel was turned about 120 degrees to the left!!! So much for my "little" extra caster! I was going to put more caster in the RF anyway to help with our terrible road crown here in LA, but Ill just take it out of the left side instead!

Well it took a while but the CPP tubular A arms are in (the deluxe) kit. Took a little over 4 1/2 hours from statrt to finish, but man do the look and drive great. I'll post some pictures in the next few days, just wish I'd had more time to clean up the underbody. That will be another project. Went with the 1.5 lower springs but ended up droppping the car nearly 2.25 inches. Now I need to consider either dropping the back or new stock springs. The alignment tech had no problems with the set up and did a great job of dialing it in. Great kit in my opinion. Where's the uppers?:D

Sean

Can you guys share the alignment specs and how does it drive? I'm talking about uneven road pulling, braking, front end feeling planted, cornering, turning tight in parking spaces? etc. :D :D

I just finished my front end with ALL brand new parts and I absolutely hate it. :( I am ordering this kit within the next few days.

OK Funky heres the specs from the alignment tech. They are his settings and seem to work great so far. Car tracks straight, no pulling on braking and the entire front feels glued to the road. Both myself and my buddy (Saab master mech) drove the car before and after. Andy said much less wander and felt it tightened up the steering greatly. No sqeaks or creaks, very tight with new KYB's and CPP springs. I'll post the numbers, but maybe NOGO can comment on what they really mean.

Camber left right
.6 .6
Caster 2.3 3.8
Toe .29 .33

Front
Cross Camber 0.0
Cross caster -1.5
Cross Sai -1.4
Total Toe .62

PS The car was driven at 65-70 mph 35 miles home on freeway. Test drove next day on 2 lane rural roads. Hope this helps- Photos to follow

Sean



Total Toe .62

I dont think these measurements are in degrees- can you clarify Sean? To be honest, I have always done my alignments in reference to degrees to I cant convert these numbers to make sense in my head if it isnt. If they are- the toe in and positive camber is a little excessive, and there is FAR too much caster and cross caster.

Hey Nogo, the specs were in degrees, the alignment was done at a Firestone tire in Santa Clara. I dont have a clue what they mean but the before and after numbers were off the charts. The tech seemed to know his stuff, but I didnt get a chance to give him your specs before the car went on their rack. When I dropped the car off it looked like I had won the hop contest at Hydralics -r-us.

I have photos I'll post this weekend and I'll include the alignment printout. I just felt good being able to put new parts back on the car, alignment might as well be translating russian to me. So far the car drives great and I love how stout front end is tied together.

Sean

Hey guys...

Double check this spec because something isn't adding up. The last guy who did my alignment set my car at
.5 camber
1.5 caster
.38 toe

and it was so bad my camber was way out and my car looked pigeon toed. I didn't drive it but 10 miles and it was feathering and outer-wearing my tread like I have never seen. Furthermore, it was so pigeon toed that the car would BAWL around curves.

I HAD to redo it in my driveway just so I could drive it. It wasn't even close.

The problem I have run into is when I set the alignment in my driveway, I HAD to tweak it, pull it back and pull it forward (hitting the brakes) and the front end would shift drastically everytime. It took me LITERALLY 6+ hours to get the tires almost perfectly vertical and toed. Not sure if it's right but it is a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT BETTER than it's been having any tech do it at a shop. I can't afford to keep paying techs $130 to align it and send me down the road only to have my front end shift around 1 minute down the road.

I truely think with the wide 17" wheels and wide contact patch of the tires has changed the recommended alignment of these cars. Is it possible that 0 camber and minimal toe (.1) is the way to go with these new low profile wheels/tires? My car ABSOLUTELY hates any + or - camber or excessive toe.

It's frustrating as hell. You build a car brand new (suspension and all) and can't even drive the sum bitch to enjoy it because you can't get the alignment right.

I'm all ears guys....give me some feedback.

Dave

Ok, looked again at the alignment sheet and Nogo they are in degrees. Noticed at the bottom that the asterisk on caster settings referred to it beings way out of spec. Dont know why the tech didnt try to get it closer, guess thats what I get for a late Sat. appt. All watch the tires and try to find a better, Old school tech, to fix the specs. Thanks for the heads up, car still seems to drive much better. The lower strut mounts only had 2 rivets, rest were bolts. Seriously starting to think the front was "massaged" in the past. Might that cause the numbers to be so off in the caster area? Any thoughts? Bueller.... Bueller?

Sean

I drag race my car so front end travel is critical,does it decrease it?,increase it or stay the same? Thanks

Hey sr67ss, I am pulling my radiator core to make my engine install easier. I will also put the CPP kit is as I reasssemble the front.

BUT there are definetly FOUR rivets up there. So I am going to believe that your front end was fixed one time or another in it's past.

Where are you in the Bay Area? PM me sometime if you like.

james

One of my strut mounts has all bolts, the other is all rivets. Either the factory used whatever they had or someone has taken it apart before. But the bolts look very old and the car hasn't been tampered with, was a daily driver family car. I guess collision repair might have done it. But it hasn't been in a major wreck that I know of.

-Aaron

The July issue in Super Chevy has an article showing step by step info and pics of the kit. I saw the mag and posted if any had heard of the kit. Well I was informed the kit was posted here with a sticky sometime ago. Thinking about buying the kit but I'm still iffy on it.For $350 you can't go wrong.I've spent well over that getting my car aligned again and again over the years.I will be getting this kit soon.bm

Has anyone used a Hilwig 1 1/8" sway bar with the Kit?

From the first post:
GOOD NEWS: MY GIANT 1 1/8" SWAY BAR FITS!!!

I have one of the Hellwig sway bars gathering dust in the basement, so I was curious about that as well. One thing though: It probably won't work with shortened springs, they need to be stock height.

So why does CPP offer a short spring kit with this great improvement on suspsenion? Less travel is bad and a dropped spring will change angles?

From everything I read Dropped spindles do not compromise the suspension.
Wouldn't a dropped spindle be the best way to get down?:) Soon as I get my allowance this CPP kit is mine.

James

What did they charge you for shipping ?The $350 kit to Cali is right at $447. $50 for shipping and $40 something for taxes.bm

Mine with shipping is right around $400.00 give or take a dollar:)

I couldnt turn down my dogs so I ended up taking them to the park earlly Saturday morning as usual.I didnt get started on the mini sub-frame installation until about 10:30 AM.I do not have acess to a lift so I did work from my creeper.The whole job from start to finish including bar-b-que duty was about 7 hrs.I have a couple of questions for you NO GO....In the instructions for the eccentrics it shows a flat washer going between the eccentric and the mount.I was unable to locate such a washer.By the time I got to this point of the install CPP was closed also Im not sure if they even offer tech support on weekends.My other questoin is do you have any idea why they would include a lock-out kit with my order? One of the instruction sheets is titled #10134-LOCK-OUT-INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS.T he lock-out-kit consists of 8 allignment cams so it makes sense to me that they are for this kit.Any insight on these questions would be greatly appreciated.Thanx for your help .

The lockout kit was included because so many Nova owners are still worried about the eccentrics moving CPP decided to throw in a free lockout kit (I used standard eccentrics on my car). The flat washers that go behind the eccentrics are necessary- call CPP and get the washers (PM me with your full name and Ill mention it to the guy when I go to CPP this week and see if I cant help get them to you ASAP).

Not sure what holes your speaking about. I put the kit on my 67 and didn't have to drill and new holes. Plus mine was a deluxe version. Pretty staright forward just make sure you get the small washers behind the eccentrics per their diagram. Hope that helps

Sean

I'm referring to the 5 holes on each side at the strut rod brackets. I guess my eyes are playing games with me, but it seems that once the rivets are removed it may only expose maybe a 3/8" hole, when the bolts that came with the kit to mount the plate are 7/16" I believe.

By the sounds of it there haven't been any problems though.

I guess I should have just gone to the local hardware store and picked up some washers for the eccentrics, since that is the only thing holding me back from doing this job. I would have taken it apart already, but don't want it sitting up on blocks unable to be driven any longer than necessary.

I don't remember anyone ever mentioning the existing holes not matching. NOGO?

You should'nt have to drill ANYTHING- the proper harware fits in the existing holes where the rivets used to be. The only thing I can think of is the hardware supplied was too large- but Im pretty sure the proper bolts were 7/16". Have you removed the rivets yet 63akdn?

NOGO,
I haven't started to tear it down yet. There were no flat washers in the kit for the eccentrics so I am waiting for them to show up. I figured there could be a cruise or two fit in while waiting for the washers, and I was right :D Last night I hit a show and shine about half an hour from my place.

I guess the holes will be 7/16" as others have found them to be, but I'll let you know after tearing down the front end.

An added note; In case any of the Canadians were wondering what kind of cost to look at for the kit.............my total was $600. $484 including exchange rate and taxes, and UPS charged $115 for duty and taxes. In the past it has generally cost me twice the advertized US price in Canadian dollars by the time it is at my door. You better take advantage of the good exchange rate while you can!

I took the plunge today...ordered the mini kit from NNN. Total with shipping from CPP was $401, NNN told me the total will be $389 from them...so they get the business. They told me the backlog is 3 weeks though.

Still can't believe I did it (as it delays the engine project yet again) but, it seemed like a good deal on a good improvement...and hopefully it lets me delay the need to buy new front tires. I'm *really* hoping that it helps the alignment issues.

Lucky (?) me, I won't have to remove any rivets. Previous owner had hacked the middle out of the original strut rod housings, welded in angle iron instead, and solid mounted the strut rods in the angle iron (don't ask me why...) As a result, I already went through the joy of removing the rivets when I replaced the housings for stock ones. As I remember, it took a bunch of work, a 3/8" drill bit, a cold chisel, and a lot of swearing. And then I had to do the other side too. :eek:

I finished my tubular control arm install 2 weeks ago .Ive been driving my car to work every day (50 miles round trip).I took a trip to Gorman (approximatelly 180 miles round trip) this last weekend and this car feels totally different from any first generation Nova Ive ever driven. Its very predictable at highway speeds (80+). its also very solid thru bumps and around curves.My other car is a 63 super sport convertible with a 383 stroker and a keisler 5 speed .In 1987 I had global west install del -alum upper busshings,an aircraft style lower controlarm bearing,lok-out kit,Koni shocks,lock-out kit,new spring perches, new springs. all new ball joints etc.The improvement to a worn and stock suspension was very dramatic and very expensive.In my opinion rebuilding the front end and installing the addco sway bar and just adding the basic mini-subframe kit yeilds a fantastic riding and handling car for not alot of money..The car I installed the tubular lower control arms in is my daily driver.Its a 63 wagon.This car is mostly stock except for front disks and a 200R4.Once I had completed my install I took my car to Bobs Allignment in downtown Los Angeles.He was pleasantly surprised to see the new control arms,He alligned the car in no time flat.I would recomend this kit to anyone. ps. thanx again NOGO for all your help with what used to be a VERY problematic and labour intensive front end.....

Well, I installed the kit today. It wasn't bad at all. I forgot that I had removed the rivets when I rebuilt the front end originally and replaced them with bolts which made removing the strut rod brackets very easy. :D

I had to take a round file to a few of the holes to make the bolts fit, but other than that it went together fairly well. I ended up torquing the plate bolts to 60 ft-lb, which is a little less than the suggested 78 ft-lb that I just looked up in a reference manual.

The old balljoints released using a hammer with a gentle tap which surprised me.

Unfortunatley I don't have a hoist so a considerable amount of time was spent on my back. The good thing about that is I just used a little trolley jack with a wood block instead of a hammer to slide the bushings into place. One arm slid in nicely and took no time at all, however the other one had to be coaxed a bit more.

I guess once the alignment is done and a few nice long drives are in I'll have my final opinion on this kit, but so far I am very happy. :D

I installed my unit over the weekend and have a couple of questions for those that have installed one already:

There were 14 bolts and nuts with the kit but only 10 mounting holes. Where do the other 4 go?

My sway bar is no where near lining up with the holes. Will this correct itself when the front end is lined up?

The ball joint does not fit into the spindle as far as the old one did. Are the ball joints for 63 the same as the ones that came in the kit?

Thanks for the help

Al

1. The 4 extra bolts are for the lower ball joints- 2 on each side (kind of overkill to me but I installed them anyway)

2. The lower ball joints also did not fit as far as my old ones- but as long as the top of the castle nut is even or lower than the threads, and you can fit the cotter pin through then you'll be ok.

The balljoints on mine were similar to yours Bryan. One barely exposed the hole enough for the cotter pin to go through. The other barely exposed the hole...period. I ended up using 1/2 cotter pin on that one.

I decided against the overkill on the balljoint bolts though. :D

NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tried to have my car aligned today. As I stated before after I installed the kit the sway bar on the right side did not line up with the control arm hole.

The alignment man cannot get the right wheel in the correct place. The wheel sits at least 3/4" farther forward than the left.

The sway bar will not begin to line up!

Anybody have any ideas what is going wrong?????????

Thanks

Al

I recieved a PM this morning from Mr. Danny Nix with CCP regarding my alignment problems that I stated above.

First I want to thank Danny for the information he forwarded and items to check.

After thinking about what the situation is, I am beginning to believe that this problem was occuring before the installation of the kit. Adding the stability of the kit might be making the problem more apparent.

I am going to take the measurements that Danny suggested and proceed on what is found.

I will keep everyone informed, but I at this point I do not believe it is the fault of the new control arm.

Once again I want to thank Danny and commend CCP on watching this thread and adding input to the benfit of us all.

Al

Hello Guys
Great site, i just joined today.
The CPP lower a-arm kit caught my attention, would this kit be as good a fix as say a Heidts kit.

Any info for the new guy would be great!

Thanks

The cpp kit is a lower a arm kit for $350(supposed to be pretty good).The heidts kit is a whole front clip which cost $2000+.If you have the money for the do the clip.(the ultimate front end fix)bm

Well, I gotta tell ya............although it has been about 3 weeks since the install, and my buddy is to align it on Saturday, I couldn't take it any longer!

I spent a couple of hours playing with the front end using a tape measure and eyeing it. Finally I was satisfied and took it out for a nice drive. Since my tires are worn too much and will be replaced it doesn't matter if they wear even more.

The difference is unbelievable. I was looking for potholes, manway covers, and hit as many as I could. No need to fight with the steering wheel, and the car didn't take a jump to the left or right. It cost me $600 Canadian to my door, and was definitely worth it. More pleasurable drive now by far.

FYI- If anyone is interested in CPP's tubular upper arms here is the link (or click my sig):

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40275

Hey did anybody use the CPP disk brake kit. I'm having problems fitting wheels and tires on my 64. I used the mini sub frame kit, havent driven it yet though, its still not complete. If anyone used the mini sub frame kit, or the disk brake kit or the lowered springs from CPP, any info would help. Thanks.

disc brake kits will move your wheels out 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch per side.No one told you that?You will have to get new wheels with different bs.bm

I did a complete restore on the car, and put the mini-sub frame kit with 2 in drop spindles and lowered springs, all from CPP. I'm having trouble getting tires to fit cause they either hit the fender, or they rub on the steering knuckle. I want rally rims, but they dont fit. Anybody else have the same set up?
just like I said the new disc setup changed your back spacing.You will need to get new wheels.Best place for custom rally wheels is http://www.stocktonwheel.com/rally_wheels.htm

I installed my kit last nite. About 5 hours. Boy do my shoulder hurt this morning. The original control arm slots were a pain in the *****, but a big rubber mallet and a framing hammer really helped.
Looking at Nogo's pictures my eccentric bolts do not seem as long as his were.I get about 3/4 of the nut on, on the original slots.
I will be going back this morning and tightening everything up.
It seems like the first side I did took a long time, but the other side went in pretty easily. Now to get it aligned and see how it drives.
Next up the 3 point seatbelts.

So The kit finally came in and before I rip the front end appart I'm cuirius as whats the best way to do a backyard /tape mesure alighnment?

Sholuld I mesure the current alignment angles and start with that?

I have not driven the car much (maybe 50 miles and most of it below 40 mph) but the car for sure handles better and takes road "bumps" MUCH better.

It will wander some at high speeds (over 60 mph) but it did that before and probably is caused by what ever has the front end cocked.

The measurement that I took checked out, so the problem is not in the CCP kit manufacture.

Would I install it again???? FOR SURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al

Got mine aligned yesterday. Took it to a cruise in last night and am "VERY" pleased with it:D Didn't even have a hint of a wander over bumps and crown of the road. Money well spent in my opinion:) ;)

speaking of powder coating.....I want to get my setup powdercoated black.Do I need to do anything as far as disassembly(bearings ect..)?My box is buried somewhere in all our moving crap.thanks bm

You'll need to push out the bushings in the a-arm before you can powdercoat. 400 degrees isn't kind to poly bushings;) I painted mine but it does come off when scraped so powder coating is the way to go:D
Thanks wogs,
Are the bushings the press in type?Will i need special tools to take them out and put them back in?thanks bm

I'm not sure about that since I didn't mess with mine:o You will like the way it drives once you get it installed though:D I can go down an uneven road and the car stays straight with no wander which makes on handed driving nice(your left hand hanging out the window):cool:

I did the A-arm kit w/ lowering springs and 4 way power disk brakes.....there is a kit that won't push the wheels out, when I ordered mine they had to piece me a kit together and now it has a number(part), I can get it and will post it for everyone.....But yes there was a problem with the tires being pushed out and that may just have been the drop spindles not sure?

I am waiting on brake lines, why they don't sell or tell you that you need them when you buy the rest of the kit is beyond me.


Later,

Richard

OK, I'm partway through the install (yea!) and I have a few questions:

1) The order of hardware on the plate mounting bolts from the topside: bolt head, flat washer, frame, plate, lockwasher, nut. Correct? (Also, the supplied flat washers just barely don't fit on the bolts, I'll have to slightly enlarge the hole. Anyone else?)

2) Torque specs for the plate bolts? (Thought I read 78 lb-ft earlier in the thread)

3) Any loctite needed?

So far it's going pretty smoothly, only a couple of minor problems. The old lower balljoints didn't want to come off...until I got out the BFH, and my OldSkool(tm) tow tabs interfered with the plate, so I took them off for now.

Same problem as you with the washers! Didn't torq the bolts, just tightened them real tight. I didn't use any loctight but don't see where that would be a problem. I did have a few bolts left over:confused: Hope they were just extra:rolleyes:

Just finished putting the finishing touches on the assembly...next stop is the alignment.

I got the hardware figured out...

I looked at the bag-o-parts again, and noticed one extra bag labelled H7-REPL that just had a bunch of flat washers in it. Those ones fit great! Looks like CPP discovered the problem and is putting the correct washers in a separate bag instead of opening up the hardware bag and replacing the bad washers. So...anyone having trouble with the washers, look for another washer bag. CPP would probably send you the right ones if your kit dosen't have the replacements.

I ended up using two flat washers per plate bolt, so the sequence I ended up with was: bolt head, flat washer, frame, flat washer, lock washer, nut.

I left everything loose (just nuts and bolts) until everything was bolted together and the LCA's were in, then went back around and added the washers and tightened everything down.

The front cam bolts were tough on both sides...ended up having to use a rubber mallet on the bolts. The passenger side one was a real bear, and the rear lockout plate on the front bolt is just 'on there' for now, as I couldn't get it on in the orientation I wanted.

Gettin' there...pictures later...

I had no problem w/ washers, but the holes to the ball joint had to be drilled out larger to accept the bolts, also I belive the strut rod rivit holes had to be drilled out, can't remember for sure:confused:

Anyway, I did not use any loctite..
I was missing bolts in the front disc brake kit and the spacers for the front sway bar were too short....ordered a front end kit, tie rods, etc.....different sleeves in kit, guess they were made from two different places or countries? The quality control could be better and again directions suck! they lack torque specs and detail, pics would be nice also.....but in the end it all got done....:)

STILL waiting on my brake line kit, then I will bleed the brake system, get a front end alignment and get it on the road.....hope all goes well

So I started tearing the front end appart and Im wondering whats the best way to remove the rivets from the strut rods? I have a small air hammer and it takes it off but just very slowley.

I used an air die grinder with a cutoff wheel and ground the heads down;)

I had an air hammer from hell! it was a snap on(local high school body shop's), very powerfull it worked great, I would not have been able to do it with my store bought one.....If I had a choice without a real good air hammer I would use a cut off wheel....they cut pretty fast...Good Luck.

Richard

I did the drill-and-cold-chisel routine. That was years ago though, as I had to replace the strut rod brackets because PO decided to do some 'improvements' to the brackets. All I had to do for this swap was take off the bolts...I already paid my dues.

Here's a couple of pics for ya Funky:D
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c381/wogs64ss/100_1024.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c381/wogs64ss/100_1023.jpg
Enjoy!!

hey did you paint your kit or did it come like that? The cpp decal looks stock, did you just paint tape it off?

-Aaron

The CPP decals peel right off. I painted mine and will more than likely put the decals back on. They are currently stuck on the bolt bag.

Got pass 1 done tonight, still have to verify the alignment, grease the lower balljoints, and do a re-tighten of everything, but...so far so good. Took it out for a quick spin to the end of the road and back, much improved from the last trip out!!! Very encouraging. Now I gotta figure out how come it runs so crappy...and hot (220*).

Some pix...more to come, but here's the raw ones hot off the press:

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca714.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca722.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca727.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca733.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca734.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca742.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca743.jpg

http://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cpplca/cpplca744.jpg

Hey Patman,
What is that alignment tool you have?Thanks bm
ps cool pics thanks!!!

Hey Patman,
What is that alignment tool you have?Thanks bm
ps cool pics thanks!!!

The alignment gizmo is from Eastwood, got it as an xmas gift a long time ago. All it really does for you is check the toe in/out, so you're still on your own as far as caster and camber go. It beats a measuring tape...but not by much. You could build one for cheap and get just as good results.

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=2450&itemType=PRODUCT

I punted on the caster. Judging by the tire-to-fender clearance, it looked pretty close to what it was when I started. (couldn't figure out how to adjust it anyway.) Camber I checked with a carpenter's level (and a couple of sockets to block it up away from the rim a tad to clear the sidewalls) as well as a magnetic protractor. I ended up with pretty close to 0* on both sides, so I left that too.

The toe-in took a few tries, as things were still a bit wobbly. Cranking the wheel lock to lock a couple of times helped, but the settings still changed slightly. I yanked on the wheels while I was under the car, forcing the front edges together and apart to see what was moving. It looks like the idler arm actually *does* have something to do with this, but not what you'd expect.

The tie rod ends are all new...so there isn't any lengthwise slop due to those parts. The idler is well past it's prime. It turns out that the slop in the idler allows the steering link to flex up and down a bit as the tire fronts are forced together and apart. The flexing (even with new rod ends) allows the overall length to change slightly. That would explain some of the wobblyness of the original setup. I think the new A arms help nail that down somewhat, but there's still some slop. I am going to have to save up for an idler rebuild kit I think to get this all nailed down.

It's 'good enough' for now alignment wise, I'll take it to a shop after I do the idler. If you check out the tire wear, you'll see that the outer edges are nearly bald, and the inners have probably 3/8". New tires are in the future too...

Aaron, I just painted over the existing decal and then when the paint dried I removed the decal:)

CopRod had the same problem and he ended up calling CPP to get the ball joints replaced if I am not mistaking. Fix the ball joints without question. Lose a spindle and you're in big trouble.

I had a problem stripping out a ball joint w/ a impact and the oters would'nt snug up enough, if I were to keep going I would have stripped them also:confused:

I had them send me replacements and I put the replacement on with the top 1st them the bottom, and I used a tall suspension/transmission jack to push up on the lower A-Arm, then I would tighten the nut , jack up the A-arm a little , tighten the nut until I got it to clear the cotter pin hole...actually went very smooth...also make sure your are going into the spindle,centered/straight, so you don't get it in a bind and I also put a little grease on it.


Good Luck...

Richard

Yep, in the very first post, NOGO states that the Hellwig sway bar fits, as long as you use stock height springs.

Greg, saw that but I was hoping I could retain my 1-1/2" lowered springs. I'll find out soon enough, most likely though a 1" bar is a future purchase....like maybe today.

Another option is to use stock springs and drop spindles- although I know in your situation its more cost efficient to buy another sway bar.
LOL...I know hindsight is 20/20...have lowered springs and stock spindles for the disc brake setup and a 1-1/8" sway.....hmmm, yeh replacing the sway is definitely the more cost effective solution. Thanks for the input. Kirk

I sent CPP an e-mail about kit pricing, but never received back a solid answer. The Basic kit runs $349 and the Upper Arm kit runs $269....totaling $618, but they sell the combined kit for $649

Am I missing something here, it does not appear that the $649 kit has any additional parts included.

Just an observation :confused:
$618 seperate
$649 kit:rolleyes:
I was wondering the same thing myself. I am wondering if kit (#6267TCA-ULK) also comes with the Springs, shocks, and lower control arm bushings like the deluxe kit. I would be willing to bet they do and somebody forgot to take a picture of those included....but who knows...it's worth asking.

Dave

Dave, I called CPP and asked that exact question. According to the phone rep, the Springs and Shocks are not included in the $649 kit.LOL. Alrighty then.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

LOL. Alrighty then.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe their pricing of the complete kit (uppers & lowers) is a precursor of where the prices are headed on the other two kits in the near future.

Since they just released the complete kit, it may already have the higher price. That would explain the differential.

Looks like you can get a preview of the new prices from the 'secret sale thread' link:

http://www.cpptalk.com/summer.sale.06.html

6267TCA-K
1962-67, standard, kit
reg: $399.00 - sale: $325.00

6267DTCA-K
1962-67, deluxe, kit
reg: $599.00 - sale: $549.00

6267TCA-UK
1962-67, upper control arms, pair
reg: $309.00 - sale: $269.00

6267TCA-ULK
1962-67, Mini sub-frame standard kit plus upper control arms, kit
reg: $649.00 - sale: $589.00

Well I got it done !!!!!! The Rivet Removal took a little while The A arms are a much tighter fit which is a good thing . Just the feeling of the A arms tightness compared to feeling of the stock setup gave me the intuition that this would be a big improvement. Adjusting the caster / camber is much easer. I knew the camber esentrics had to be at about the 12 O' Clock position and and that these cars like a lot of caster. I didn't tuch the toe setting and did my ajustments prior to taking it off the jackstands. Even thouugh I didn't put much effort into alighning it made a BIG differnce. i feels much tighter and I have a lot more control of the car and the alignment was pretty decent. I never had much luck when doing my own aligments on the stock setup and yet without putting much effort into aligning this the alignment was still much better than before with the stock setup. I am very happy with it and would recomend it for anyone who is frustrated with the stock front end as I was.

Hello all:
I finally got through installing the upper and lower CPP tubular arms along with their 1.5 lowering springs. I haven't got it aligned yet but I managed to take it out for a quick drive. It feels much more solid and doesn't kick back throught the steering wheel. This was definitely worth the money spent. Now to find a good alignment shop..........

Gerald

I also noticed in the pics the car didn't have the metal pcs that go around the coil spring. Do they add strength to the front end? My car only had one when I bought it, finally found some on eBay that I'm gonna put on.

They hold the bump-stops for the front tires, which I think is important...

Nice write-up patman. I ordered my kit from CPP last Thursday, on backorder 2-3 weeks of course.

Stupid question: The front of the tires are supposed to be closer by 2/32" than the rear, right?

I also noticed in the pics the car didn't have the metal pcs that go around the coil spring. Do they add strength to the front end? My car only had one when I bought it, finally found some on eBay that I'm gonna put on.

Just trying to help the cause. NPHNP!! I'm no expert, but...I managed to get it installed. I just figured I'd add to the installation instructions a bit.

Yes, toe-in is the fronts of the tires being closer than the rear of the tires. I think part of the reason it is done that way is that they tend to 'spread' slightly as the car drives along, so it works out to be straight. The way that gauge works is you put it across the rear of the tires and zero the gauge. Then you move it to the front, read the difference, and change the tie rod adjusters to take up half of what it reads vs. what you want it to read. The picture was taken on a final check after I got it adjusted...zeroed on the backs, 2/32" toe in measured at the fronts. That's just a generic setting, it's not specific to the Nova or anything. You can do the same thing with a tapemeasure.

I checked the camber with a protractor, about 1/2 degree, bottoms farther out than tops, and the caster I just eyeballed based on the position of the tire relative to the lower front edge vs where it was when I started. Not very scientific, but 'close enough' for now, and it drives a WHOLE LOT better than before.

After I get the idler bearing rebuilt, and it settles in a bit, I'll take it over for a professional alignment.

As for the metal pieces, you mean the sheetmetal shield piece that covers the outside tops of the springs? They're in there...just hiding behind the fender.

http://www.bracketracer.com/uca21.jpg

As for the metal pieces, you mean the sheetmetal shield piece that covers the outside tops of the springs? They're in there...just hiding behind the fender.

http://www.bracketracer.com/uca21.jpg


Right. Didn't look close enough. Thanks for the reply. I read or heard somewhere that cars need toe-in or toe-out depending on whether the center (drag) link or tie rods were in front or behind the wheels but couldn't remember exactly. So toe-in it is. After the CPP install I will do a driveway alignment because I still have idler and pitman arm to put on later and then dropped spindles and disc brakes, the latter will have to wait because I need bigger wheels for the front.

Thanks Patman I will refer to your post also.Did you measure toe in and camber and caster while on the stands before taking it apart??

Nope. It was all wacko anyway, so there was no point. NOGO posted the specs on the alignment he did, I'd trust those specs before mine any day. There are other threads that cover alignment specs in a lot of detail.

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30143
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40684

And on a general note, credit where credit is due...I'm just following in NOGO's footsteps here. I don't think I would have gotten the kit in the first place if it wasn't for his writeup.

I'm planning on ordering CPP's deluxe control arm kit for my '64 nova. I talked to the people from Unisteer and they told me that Chevy Rumble is doing an article on the install of a power rack and pinion system on a Nova that already has CPP's kit. I was just wondering if anyone has already done Unisteers install and how it worked out with CPP's kit?

http://www.classicperform.com/tech_articles/CPP_Subframe_Install/CPP_Subframe_Install.htm

:D :D :D :D

Hi, a few months ago i did the Bill II Chevette rack & pinion conversion in my 63 , can any one tell me if this kit will work with the new fron stering? i think is a great kit but i don want to mess up. i will apreciate yours answers.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bills conversion is front steer right? I dont see a front steer setup clearing the CPP lower control arm. Anyone else want to comment?

Jack

I have the weld in Global West lower ball joint conversion to the "A-body spindles. Will I:confused: have to go this route with the press in ball joints again? Or is there a bolt in that fits the 68"-72" spindles yet?

I had the same situation,I bought a set of stock Nova spindles off of E-Bay for $20 and modified them so my A-body brakes would fit.It was the simplest solution I could find.

Another option obviously would be to use CPP spindles and one of their brake kits.

Anyone been to the track with the new CPP upper and lower A-Arms??

I have- it makes no difference in track times, but it sure feels better when you're going fast!

Here you can see the lower arms:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/NOGO12s/IMG_2263-vi.jpg

Just curious if it lowered your 60 ft times. I have nothing to brenchmark it against, never raced it with the ole front-end. Got alot of lookers this weekend wondering what was under the car.

http://www.route66wingsandwheels.com/uploads/0117.jpg

I must say...I just got the CPP mini-subframe installed and all I can say is WOW!!! Doesn't even feel like the same car. NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE. It litterally drives like a new car. I kick myself for not doing it sooner.

BEST PART I HAVE EVER BOUGHT. Hands down.

By the way where does my reply goes?? U qouted me and that reply I cant find???

I deleted it. As noted above, I'm pruning the chit-chat out of here so it doesn't get overwhelmingly long. If someone quotes, the original is no longer needed and in fact in after a while, both may be gone. This is so that someone researching the subject has less to wade through. ;)

I'm so stoked I figured I would share some pics.:D :beer: Time for some new tires.... oh...I plan to relocate the cooling lines so please....no bashing..:rolleyes: :D
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/The%20Undercarriage/100_3769_0001.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/The%20Undercarriage/100_3770.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/The%20Undercarriage/100_3777.jpg

Hey Funky, ya must have taken it out for a ride already.............Well??????
:D :D :D

I bet you have found it made a huge difference in handling and feel.

Have you got it aligned yet? I did mine by tying a little piece of 1 X 2 to the centre of the tires on the using string that ran behind the tires. The 1 X 2's extended past the tires and I measured the distance between them at the front and rear of the tires, adjusting the tie-rods as required to get the distances fairly equal. Then I just eye-balled from a distance and adjusted the front and rear eccentrics until the tires looked vertical. Brought it to the shop for my buddy to align and 3 of the 4 adjustments were in the "green". 10 minutes later he was done.

My tires are in much worse shape than yours, but I figured on waiting a few hundred miles to ensure tire wear will not worsen before getting another pair.YUP...I drove it to a car show Saturday right down the street. I have just eyeballed the alignment but it still drives 10X better. I plan to go tomorrow night and align it. BTW- Those tires you see in the pics have less than 400 miles on them.:o I'll drive with them for a few weeks to ensure I don't get any uneven wear after the new alignment.
I'll let you know how it turns out.

Dave

Funky nova, that ground clearence did´nt look too much?, can U honestlu run around town without fear for speedbumps and stuff will ripp your oilpan away?


Thats what I was thinking! Wow is that close!

Hey Funky what size rim, offset, and front tires are you running?

Hey funky.Why did you not use the lockouts provided by cpp? Your tie rod ends are on a weird angle .Are you sure its ok like that?

I think they look like that becuase it is lowered. That's my best guess.

Nogo- The wheels are 17X8 with a 5"backspace. The current tires are 215/40-17 but I plan to buy 225/45-17s this tire with fresh tread should raise the car 1" or so. I have been good about driving over speedbumps sideways without scraping + I have a skid plate welded to the bottom of the pan just in case. The pan was homemade by a previous owner of this motor.
The only thing I fear is roads that are about to be repaved with the man holes raised!:eek: I would have to litterally stop until traffic cleared so I could drive between lanes if I ever ran up on such a road.:o


Chevynuts/Anders- The tie rod ends are on a swivel so to twist a little under a turning load is normal. You can grab the tie rods and twist them. I might loosen the sleeve adjustments and pull the tie rod ends back straight and re-tighten the sleeves. No biggie.

I have the lock outs stored away but from the design of this suspension i just don't see them being necessary. I highly doubt they would move. Ask Nogo. Plus, the alignment guy who did it last time was a novice. It was bad enough I had to do the alignment for him...last thing I wanted to worry about is teaching him how to trial and error a lock out system. If you have a patient alignment guy who is willing, go ahead and lock em out but after tweeking and tweeking the camber, caster and toe setting over and over until there was 0 cross camber/toe and .2 cross caster it would have taken hours and hours to get it where I got it set using the eccentrics.

Dave

Hey fellas,
I'm gonna start my cpp lower a arm kit this weekend.I need to put together a tool list.All my tools are in my roll away at work.I need to know what I need besides the basics.
This is what I came up with so far
1.3/8 socket set
2.wrenches 1/4-1"
3.screwdrivers
4.pneumatic drill to drill out the rivets
5.ball pien hammer
6.punch set
what else do I need?Thanks guys bm

Spring compressor;)

Spring compressor;)

I'm doing the lowers??Why do I need that?bm

I don't think you would need a spring compressor unless you are doing something with the upper arm. You can just put a block of wood between the upper arm and the frame/fenderwell or leave the shock in and it will stop the upper arm form coming all the way down. Maybe I'm wrong though.

-Aaron

You'll need a pickle fork or something to remove the lower balljoint from the spindle.

Prolly want a grease gun too.

And a jack and jackstands.

Torque wrench.

Vice grips/pliers/wirecutters for cotter pins.

No spring compressor needed.

You'll need a pickle fork or something to remove the lower balljoint from the spindle.

Prolly want a grease gun too.

And a jack and jackstands.

Torque wrench.

No spring compressor needed.
Patman,
Do you know what size pickle fork?I have to buy one.I saw 15/16 and another size(can't remember)Thanks bm

The one I used is about 3/4" at the thickest part, and about 3/4" slot between the tines. Anything in that ballpark (like 15/16) should work fine.

Oh, and a 5lb sledge to go with it.

(edited my earlier post - note cotter pin addition)

Since I got the new ones, I just threaded the ball joint nut back on a few threads, smacked it 2 or 3 times with a sledge and they popped right off. All of them came off with no issues.

Hello all:
I finally aligned my '66 Nova today. I installed the CPP upper and lower arms with their 1 1/2 lowering springs. I ended up replacing the tie rod ends and using one of the idler arm setups with bearings. I'm using Edelbrock gas shocks which make the car ride a bit stiff but I have to say this car really drives much smoother, handles the bumps a whole lot better, and does not wander like the old set up. My only downside was I could not use a Milodon drag type oil pan (the one with the hole for the tie rod) cause the car sits too low. The best amount of money I've spent on this car yet.

Gerald

How low did your car end up? I haven't installed the kit yet but I hope it isn't any lower than it is now. I have the Milodon pan with the steering through the middle and can't go over a speed bump now.

I'm about to buy a stock set of springs to put back in mine. My oil pan is just way too low.:eek: This is a nightmare waiting to happen. It's either that or change to a factory style pan. I'm up in the air with what to do.:o

I'm tired of worry about dips in the road. Good thing my pan has a skid plate.:D

Hello:
The car does sit lower but I did have to change tires to a P205/55R15 size. The fender lip sits just over the top of the tire now. There is no tire rubbing when turning but I do have to watch when I go up my driveway. By coincidence, I had bought the same Milodon pan with the steering link through the center, but decided not to use it as the car sits a bit too low in my opinion to use that pan. I'm not gonna go through the effort to install it and then either worry about it out every time I drive it or be stuck in the middle of nowhere with 6 quarts of oil all over the road.

Hi all.....
Does anyone know if the Wilwood disc brake kit for stock drum spindles on a 67 Nova/Acadian moves the hub further outwards?
Just Wondering if i'm gonna have clearance issues when I install the CPP upper/lower contol arm kit with 1 1/2 lower springs with the disc kit I just bought.I'm running 15 x 3 1/2 weld prostars up front.Thanks in advance.

This will be my next upgrade. NOGO has promised to personally help with the install. I'm sooo lucky!!!!;)

Does anyone know if a 15/16 ball joint remover will work for the ball joint removal?Thanks bm

Batman,

Did you ever get your lowers replaced? I did mine yesterday and as has been said, a pickle fork was not necessary. I backed the nut off a quarter inch or so and smacked the end of the lower arm with a 32 oz. hammer. The ball joint released with no problem. The whole replacement took about three hours, but I was lucky and my strut rod mounts were bolted on and not riveted.

Chuck

Batman,

Did you ever get your lowers replaced? I did mine yesterday and as has been said, a pickle fork was not necessary. I backed the nut off a quarter inch or so and smacked the end of the lower arm with a 32 oz. hammer. The ball joint released with no problem. The whole replacement took about three hours, but I was lucky and my strut rod mounts were bolted on and not riveted.

Chuck
Hey Chuck,
I'm starting tomorrow.I have the whole week off:D I've been trying to do this for 6 months now:eek: I can't wait.I also have 4 brand new tires sitting out in the garage too:D bm

Ok guys I have some questions,
Why did they give me 4 eccentric bolts vs 2.Don't I only need 2?There are no torque values in my instructions????Any body know what they are?What about the octogon lock out plates?Thanks fellas....I'm sure Ill ask more questions tomorrow when I start.bm

Ok guys I have some questions,
Why did they give me 4 eccentric bolts vs 2.Don't I only need 2?There are no torque values in my instructions????Any body know what they are?What about the octogon lock out plates?Thanks fellas....I'm sure Ill ask more questions tomorrow when I start.bm

Answer on the other thread....

Chuck

P.S. Have fun with your install. It's really worth the money!!!!

Hi fellas,
So My kit is in.It took me 3hrs 45min.Those rivits were a bit** to get out:eek: My question is about the alignment.Where do I start?One side looks ok but the other side looks toe in.Where do I set up the eccentrics?Should I put a level on the disc brake?Does the alignment change up in the air vs on the ground with the wheels on?I'm lost.....my chiltons book says nothing about alignment except let the experts do it:eek: Any help or tips is greatly appreciated.Thanks bm

OK....you can't set the alignment with the car in the air. It does change when you set it down just not as bad as before.

Here is where you start. Drop the car down. Drive it back a good 20 ft. and forward. Hit brakes real hard. Repeat this a few times.... The idea is to get the suspension settled down as much as possible. Push down on the front end to ensure it settled good. Get out and eyeball it.

walk around the car, look at it from the rear looking down the side of the car. walk around to the front and look at it down the side again. Walk back and forth....you get the idea...See how much toe you need to add or remove.

Now jack it back up.

If you just need to remove toe you need to SHORTEN the tie rod link. In other words, turn the sleeve where the tie rod ends are tightening (coming closer together) and the front toe spec is pulling outwards. Do it only a half a turn at a time as this adjustment is pretty sensitive.

To add toe simply do the opposite.
Drop it back down and repeat if necessary.

BE SURE THE STEERING WHEEL IS STRAIGHT WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AND ADJUSTING.

This will get you close enough to drive it to an alignment shop.:D :beer:

Be sure to let us know how it drives!!!!!

OK....you can't set the alignment with the car in the air. It does change when you set it down just not as bad as before.

Here is where you start. Drop the car down. Drive it back a good 20 ft. and forward. Hit brakes real hard. Repeat this a few times.... The idea is to get the suspension settled down as much as possible. Push down on the front end to ensure it settled good. Get out and eyeball it.

walk around the car, look at it from the rear looking down the side of the car. walk around to the front and look at it down the side again. Walk back and forth....you get the idea...See how much toe you need to add or remove.

Now jack it back up.

If you just need to remove toe you need to SHORTEN the tie rod link. In other words, turn the sleeve where the tie rod ends are tightening (coming closer together) and the front toe spec is pulling outwards. Do it only a half a turn at a time as this adjustment is pretty sensitive.

To add toe simply do the opposite.
Drop it back down and repeat if necessary.

BE SURE THE STEERING WHEEL IS STRAIGHT WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AND ADJUSTING.

This will get you close enough to drive it to an alignment shop.:D :beer:

Be sure to let us know how it drives!!!!!

Thanks funky!!!Am I doing the driveing back and forth with the eccentrics loose or tight?Thanks again.bm

Thanks funky!!!Am I doing the driveing back and forth with the eccentrics loose or tight?Thanks again.bmTIGHT! Check your PM. Shoot me your number.

Just remember...If you have the eccentrics loose and you weight the car, you'll go full negative camber. I set mine (fore and aft) at approx. center of the travel, then tightened. That seems to be close enough to get it to the alignment shop.
Keep us posted!

Chuck

How to do a homegrown alignment:

You definitely need to set the alignment with weight on the suspension...the wheels should be on the ground.

You may want to put down 4 layers of plastic sheeting between the tires and the pavement, that makes them 'slide' a bit easier when you're adjusting things. It also helps to do a lock-to-lock turn (and then re-center) and roll the car forward and back a couple of feet at each adjustment...and then double check the measurements. That makes sure everything has 'settled' in to the new setting.

You need to set three items: Camber. Caster, and Toe. They need to be set in that order, because camber affects caster and toe, and caster affects toe.
Camber is the amount the top of the tire leans in or out vs the bottom of the tire (think straight axle gasser with wheelstand-tweaked front end.) Caster is the amount that the upper balljoint is ahead of the lower balljoint (think shopping cart wheels...the top pivot is far ahead so that the wheel swivels in response to the direction you are pushing.) Toe is the width at the front edges of the tires vs the width at the back (think snowplow skiing.)

First step is to center the steering wheel. Turn it lock to lock, and count the turns. Crank it all the way over again, and turn it back half the number of turns you counted. If it's 'close' (like within 1/4 turn) just crank the steering wheel so it's right side up. If it's farther off than that, you might want to pull the steering wheel and re-orient it on the splines so it's oriented correctly. (Chances are if your car was fine to begin with, you won't need to re-orient it.)

First adjustment is the camber. Use a plumb bob (weight on a string) and tape it on the fender in line with the center of the rim, so it dangles a few inches away from the tire. Measure the distance from the top of the tire to the string, and the bottom of the tire to the string. Adjust both front and rear eccentrics at the same time (or octagon plates) to get the proper setting. A slight (1/8") lean 'in' on the top measurement is about right.

Next adjustment is the caster. There's no easy way to measure this, you can put a protractor/level on the spindle, but it's a tight spot to work in. You can feel if it's right when driving, if the steering wheel centers itself after a turn, you're all set. If not, you may need more of a lean. Adjust the eccentrics individually to get the right caster.

After that, set the toe-in. Pick a spot on the tread about 6-8" above the floor. Measure the distance between that tread spot and the same spot on the other tire. Measure it in front of the tire and at the back of the tire. You want the measurements to be slightly (1/16") smaller at the front than at the back. Turn the tie rod adjusters to change the toe setting. You should make changes in SMALL increments, maybe 1/4 turn once you get close. Experiment to see which way makes the rod longer, and which makes it shorter. Turn them both longer to increase toe in, turn them both shorter to decrease toe in. Make sure you adjust both sides the same amount. Count the threads through the gap in the adjusters to make sure that a) there's at least 3/4" of thread engaged, and b) both sides are threaded in about the same amount.

The final adjustment is pointing the wheels straight relative to the steeromg wheel. Make sure the steering wheel is still pointed straight, and set up some bricks and strings to make parallel references on each side of the car. Set up strings tied to bricks 6" or so off the rocker panels and about the same off the floor. Measure the strings at the front and the back to make sure the distance is the same, so they're parallel. Measure from the front wheel front sidewall to the string, and the front wheel back sidewall to the string. You want these to be the same. Same thing on the other side. The actual measurements side to side don't matter, but the front sidewall to back sidewall on a side does. Adjust the tie rods one shorter and the other longer (by the same amount) to turn the wheels to one side, or the opposite to turn the wheels to the other side.

Triple check all the measurements to verify that nothing has moved....tighten it all up, and you should be all set.

On my car, the only thing I really needed to set was the toe in and steering wheel centering. The rest of it was (eyeball) "close enough" at the zero octagon plate settings.

HTH...

Pat

Thats for that Pat!!!!I appreciate it!!!BM

Can anyone tell me, does the "FRONT" tube on the new lower control arms that cpp sells with the kit, does it have a slight upward bend right before the bushing. I am talking approx. 1/2" rise? Any help or pictures would be great.

Kirk

Can anyone tell me, does the "FRONT" tube on the new lower control arms that cpp sells with the kit, does it have a slight upward bend right before the bushing. I am talking approx. 1/2" rise? Any help or pictures would be great.

Kirk

Kirk, I can't get a pic right now, but I can tell you there is a slight rise as you describe. It is somewhere in the range of 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.

Chuck

Thanks,

I just wasn't sure , but was told it is to provide clearance when suspension is fully compressed.

Kirk

bump......

Does "Bump" mean the thread is over?......or was that just a really stupid question?

"bump" is used to get a thread back up the list after it has aged and fallen off the page. Some of these threads, because they are instructional and can aid several folks, get bumped as appropriate to keep them active.

Thanks,

I do have a question. Is there an advantage to installing the upper control arm. I don't see many Nova's with the upper installed...just curious as i am getting ready to buy one of the CPP kits....probably with a 2" dropped spindle disk brake kit.

How long do I stay a "Newbie"? lol

Hey Aldo!

One more post and you'll be a Junior!

Now, as for the Upper CPP arms... That's a matter of personal choice. I just couldn't justify the additional expense of the upper arms. The biggest change in suspension stability (read: eliminating the inherent deflection in the lower control arm) was to install the lower arm set up. I looked at the design of the rest of the suspension and decided that the rest of the parts were of sufficient design to leave alone.

Again, for ME, the biggest bang for the buck was to replace the lower arms, only. I'd do it again in a heartbeat! The best $400 bones I've spent on my car, by FAR.

Chuck

Thanks,


How long do I stay a "Newbie"? lol1 more post:D

I'll definately back Chuck on that one. The lower kit kicks ***** and was worth every penny I paid for it.

The uppers, in my humble newbie opinion are a bit of a waste if you don't really need them. The original uppers are thick gauge, welded steel and are pretty beefy already.

DeuceWagon

Great!....thanks for the advice and for saving me time and money! My uppers are in great shape.

My timing about being a "newbie" was actually quite ironic. I really didn't know it was one more post...

I knew that second donation to Steve would pay off

BUMP


how's 'bout "Stickying" this thread ??? ;) :D :D :D

^^^^^^^^ What he said!

BUMP


how's 'bout "Stickying" this thread ??? ;) :D :D :D

how's 'bout checking "best of" suspension??:D



Dan (it's been stuck since its inception);)

Danno the link is stuck but not the thread. this thread without bumps is still subject to the netherworld if it falls too far down... so is Brent's idler arm thread amongst others... ;) :D :D

they all need bumps for the save

Great info on the CPP install I have the hole kit the Upper and lower CPP arms.
to put on out in the garage . I sent the large brace out and had it powder coated Black and going to leave the rest silver.
I called CPP and ordered the kit on sale for $549.00 they have the deluxe kit listed for that now and that is only the lowers. ( not sure when I will try and put them on I am recovering from a broken back and do not fell up to laying under the car right now) so when I get it done I'll let you know how the install went.

Hi there,
I also purchased the cpp kit, upper and lowerarms! Fits great until now.
Also I bought the f(b)lamingriver cradlekit and survived it too. I thought it goes wrong in allways (read the chevyhiperformance article), but i cut and gridd some minor problems away and moved up 1/4" of the rack n pinion to the driversside, to clear my Hooker comp headers!
I got 2"dropped spindles.
I did not drive the car until now.
Soon I show some pics here.

Still working on the idea to get a good coiloverkit that gonna work with this.
ANyone has solved that problem yet, in the last months?

I am working together with KONI (dutch company) to fabricate and engineer a good coiloverkit for my application....but any ideas and updates are welcome.

As soon as this gonna work out with KONI, i drop a line.

HOpe for your response with suggestions...

Best regards,
ERik Janssen
THe Netherlands,
Nova 66 SS

I too installed this kit and thought you guys might like this photo////best bang for the buck.....I can drive her with confidence now:) http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/6176/2912870190084727790S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2912870190084727790cPZisl)http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/3087/2697262080084727790S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2697262080084727790MtvOIj)

Nice clean shop you have there, I also like your car!

The only reason its clean is so I could work on the Deuce :o otherwise its full with a 56 Belair Basket case, 68 camaro 327 TCI turbo 400 4 wheel disc and 4:10 posi....:chev: :chev::chev: :usa: thnks for the compliment:beer:

Ive been looking at this upgrade for a while and now that i have seen it installed iam sold, thanks for the write up.

this is the best money spent so far on my 63 wagon
drives like wow i can relax & injoy the ride .
shawn

this is the best money spent so far on my 63 wagon
drives like wow i can relax & injoy the ride .
shawn

Have you put a Rack under it yet? If not that make it even nicer.

it has the the stock power steering i take some new pics soon tys
shawn

hey i was looking on cpp's website for the kit that you used can't seem to find it would you have a part #. thanks craig

If you are talking about the rack and pinion arms you must ask specifically for the Church modified arms

hey i was looking on cpp's website for the kit that you used can't seem to find it would you have a part #. thanks craig

Here is CPP's page with all the kits. The layout of their website is more than a little confusing.

http://www.classicperform.com/NewProducts/2006/NewFiles/NovaSubFrame.htm

The standard kit is all you need.

This kit is the bomb! I have only owned my 67 for 3 years now but first I tried to rebuild the front end when the alignment was impossible and I could not keep bushings in the ideler arm. Tried several of the local alignment shops to no avail. Got a Power Rack and pinion front end with no joy. Went back to the stock front end with a few new parts and still had alignment issues. I was at the local speed shop to get a new gauge and a friendly gentleman asked a question about the Nova that I had parked outside. After he checked out my ride we began talking where I learned that he drove a 63. When he crawled out from underneath the Nova he asked if I had a lot of front end problems to which I replied "Yes", then he asked if I belonged to your site again I replied "Yes"and he asked if I had read anything about the "control arm change"? I told him "No" and he told me that without a doubt that should be my next move. He told me that the kit was available and I should "Check it out" After I read the write-up on the install I got right on the phone to order my stuff! I also got the bearing kit for the Ideler arm and that was also worth its weight in gold! After the alignment I couldnt believe it! Drives great and I spent less on this kit than most of the other "Fixes" that I have tried!!! Very solid and handles well so far!!! Thank you very much, you guys helped me out before when I was buying parts on "EBAY"

Adding my alignment specs to the heap of info on this topic.

Caster -- Left 2.3 degrees +, Right 2.7 degrees +
(no fender rub w/205-65-15 tires)

Camber -- Left 0.2 degress +, Right 0.1 degrees +

Toe -- 0.10 degrees + , both sides (for a total of 0.20)

I only added the standard LCA kit. It drives beautifully:)
The new bushings in the old LCA didn't last 500 miles.
Going back with stock suspension was an expensive experiment. Hindsight says go with this kit, or the Global West upgrades. You will save yourself time, tires, and money.

Thanks,
Jeff

About to buy this kit. I read that the uppers are not necisary. I would love to save money buy just getting the lowers. I was wondering if the springs and shocks they sell make a difference in ride performance. and if so can I by a different set of coils and shocks? I want to save money, but I also want it to handle better. Thanks guys

About to buy this kit. I read that the uppers are not necisary. I would love to save money buy just getting the lowers. I was wondering if the springs and shocks they sell make a difference in ride performance. and if so can I by a different set of coils and shocks? I want to save money, but I also want it to handle better. Thanks guystheir shocks and springs do not make a difference.IMO the KYB shocks they sell in their kits are too stiff....I bought monroe sensa trac shocks for $25 each and am very satisfied with them.I bought my springs from PST for $75 a pair and am very satisfied with them too.....you may also want to check out church boys racing lower a arms too....I've heard nothing but great things about them....hand made in the usa by our own Chuck Church!!
www.monroe.com
www.p-s-t.com
www.churchboysracing.com

thanks for the reply. was the setup you went with stiffer then stock? Mine has new original style shocks and springs but it feels more like a diving board the a suspension.lol

thanks for the reply. was the setup you went with stiffer then stock? Mine has new original style shocks and springs but it feels more like a diving board the a suspension.lolthe springs probably need to settle if they are new...my stock setup was very mushy...thats why I got new stuff.You will love the lower a arm setup...night and day driving...make sure you get/have a front sway bar too.bm

wondering if there was something you were not happy with the cpp kit? I looked at the church boys nd it did look more adjustable, but couldnt finda price on it. When the price is not easy to find its usually out of my budget...

found the monroes. I want stiff but not overly. If they worked for you theyll probly be good for me, Ill give em a try.

wondering if there was something you were not happy with the cpp kit? I looked at the church boys nd it did look more adjustable, but couldnt finda price on it. When the price is not easy to find its usually out of my budget...

found the monroes. I want stiff but not overly. If they worked for you theyll probly be good for me, Ill give em a try.nope the cpp kit is great.The church boys is easier to adjust...I believe chucks kit is 100-200 more.
ps I like the monroes alot...great cruising shock
ps lets see some pics of your 67

Thanks man. you are a big help. the cpp kit is 382 deliverd. shocks 18 a piece. now I just need the springs. My stockers arent up to the job. Im glad I found this board. I was all over the place trying to find quality advice. My car isnt nothing to see yet, going for paint next week. 350 w a th350 10 bolt posi. 1st two pics are the day I bought it. then two days later I strpped it down to see what was under the paint. Its in three thousand pieces now ready to get sprayed next week:yes:
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/IMG_3799.jpg
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/IMG_3800.jpg
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/0913090948.jpg
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/0913090936.jpg

looks good!!What did you find under the paint?Is that a 66 hood?

wondering if there was something you were not happy with the cpp kit? I looked at the church boys nd it did look more adjustable, but couldnt finda price on it. When the price is not easy to find its usually out of my budget...

found the monroes. I want stiff but not overly. If they worked for you theyll probly be good for me, Ill give em a try.

There is nothing bad about the CPP kit. It has stood the test of time and been through drag raing and road racing without issue. Adjustment is limited by your front fender and not by the kit you purchase. You can choose your springs and shocks to your liking. The CPP upper arms are nice but the lower kit is the way to go at the least!:yes:

looks good!!What did you find under the paint?Is that a 66 hood?

It was a 66 hood. the car was hit in the right front probly 25 years ago. nothing big, but the hood seemd to be from a previous year. I put a good mark cowl on it and it fits horrible.lol. gotta bust out the grinder and tig. The body wasnt that bad. I dugg deep into all the rust I could find and this is th worst I came up with
both wheel wells had minor rust
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/0711091302.jpg
The seem by the tail light was extremely sloppy with a little surface rust
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/IMG_3872.jpg
and a small amature patch on the floor
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/chipwalberg/IMG_3869.jpg The rest was solid

looks good!!What did you find under the paint?Is that a 66 hood?

There is nothing bad about the CPP kit. It has stood the test of time and been through drag raing and road racing without issue. Adjustment is limited by your front fender and not by the kit you purchase. You can choose your springs and shocks to your liking. The CPP upper arms are nice but the lower kit is the way to go at the least!:yes:

Thanks. I was worried about the fender clearance. cpp said my 17s would fit fine with a 1.5 drop, but Im not too sure thats correct. Im close as it is and want to leave my 225 45 17 in the front. They ride much smoother then smaller tires.. Ive made up my mind to buy a lower kit only. Chuck sent me a great pm about his product and I am thinking on wich way to go. Love the technical advice and service a small company can give.

ok Ordered the kit. Did anyone use the 1.5 drop springs with 17x7 rims? Im wondering opinions if you think this will rub alot? I want the front end slightly lower but I dont want to kill the driving ability. my rims are 17x7 4 inch backspace with 225 45 17 tires. thanks guys

ok Ordered the kit. Did anyone use the 1.5 drop springs with 17x7 rims? Im wondering opinions if you think this will rub alot? I want the front end slightly lower but I dont want to kill the driving ability. my rims are 17x7 4 inch backspace with 225 45 17 tires. thanks guys

I recommend you go with 2" drop spindles than the 1.5" drop springs. In my experience a 4" bs on a 7" rim will be too close for comfort on your outer fender. I run 4.25" bs, but I think 4.5" bs is ideal. Keep in mind every car is a bit different. Also, a 225 tire with a stock fron clip will likely rub. I found a 215 was the largest without clearance problems.

Where are you guys actually rubbing specifically?

I recommend you go with 2" drop spindles than the 1.5" drop springs. In my experience a 4" bs on a 7" rim will be too close for comfort on your outer fender. I run 4.25" bs, but I think 4.5" bs is ideal. Keep in mind every car is a bit different. Also, a 225 tire with a stock fron clip will likely rub. I found a 215 was the largest without clearance problems.

Thats what I was thinking. my backspace in the rear could have been better at 4.5. but wont rub as it is. The front is only 1/2" from the rubber stopper on the spring. I think here I would have hit with a larger backspace. The rim is inset nicely on the front, but I think the tire is going to be the problem. It over hangs the rim slightly and when I turn i forsee problems if I drop the car. I think ima leave it at stock height untill I need tires(which goes quick for me) and get 205 45 17 in the front. I think that will help them tuck

I'm just getting ready to do the install and was wondering what the best alignment specs are- I saw a couple posted. It will be for a daily driving 63 wagon.

I'm just getting ready to do the install and was wondering what the best alignment specs are- I saw a couple posted. It will be for a daily driving 63 wagon.

What size front tires are you running?

What size front tires are you running?
165/55 r14

0 deg camber
1.75- 2 deg caster. Add a tenth or two of caster on the RF if you have road crown.
.2 deg total toe in

Keep an eye on your fron fender to tire clearance with caster, although your tires are small and I doubt you will have any clearance issues.

0 deg camber
1.75- 2 deg caster. Add a tenth or two of caster on the RF if you have road crown.
.2 deg total toe in

Keep an eye on your fron fender to tire clearance with caster, although your tires are small and I doubt you will have any clearance issues.

Thanks!!! That's why I love this site