Water and oil...together

[66 II]

Hey,

So here we go...

It's warming up here in Illinois so I decided to take the car for a spin yesterday. I finished installing the engine, front end etc. right before winter and only got to drive the car a couple of times (had an overhateing issue and resolved that) before the snow came. So, I de-winterized it, cranked it up and off I went for a short ride. To my suprise when I returned I found what appeared to be a mixture of oil and water on the crossmember and front suspension on the passenger side. My first thought was that it came from the overflow tank from the radiator, but that line is clean. During my ride, I pushed it once and I blew the passenger muffler off (temp muffler because I have not even had exhaust run yet) scared the crap out of me...fortunately it hung by the hanger under the car until I could get pulled over and throw it in the trunk. I immediately turned around (felling extremely dejected) and came home (only a mile or so) when I opened the hood, I found the the oil/water mixture. I was under the car yesterday with a rag and flashlight and can find no place where that would have come from. The breather on the driver's side valve cover is milky on the inside. I originally thought, as well as a lot of you, that this was the ARP head bolt sealer. I cheked the oil this morning, and the oil is milky on the stick as well.

I have not re-torqued the aluminum heads since the initial firing (probably a half dozen heat cycles have passed). So, what do you guys think? Where do I begin looking for this problem?

The engine is a .040 over 406 with AFR 210 heads.

Thanks,
Todd

[DriveWFO]

Maybe some coolant seeped up the head bolts and got in the oil?

[taz3]

Doesn't sound good try pulling plugs keep'm in order this will tell you if its between cylinders you can also pressurize the cooling system and listen for air leaking(this is a tool that goes in place of rad cap with a small hand pump) could be intake as well a little detective work to pin point cause then unbolt it.I would guess it's a head gasket,only a guess.Good luck keep us posted.

[66 II]

Taz,

When I pull the plugs, should I be looking for water on the plug or a discoloration?

I was planning on getting the pressure pump today, so we shall see...

Todd

[Mike Goble]

http://www.geocities.com/pcwright77/sbcfront.jpg

Got that bolt installed? The Wright answer is yes.

[taz3]

If the leak is bad water will be on plug but your plugs are more likely to be discolored.You maybe OK in cylinders if no smoke was visable from exhaust sorry I over looked that.Coolant will make a real obvious white cloud you can't miss it.So pressure test should help locate problem.

[66 II]

Taz,

No smoke at all coming out of either side...

Mike,

That bolt you pointed out was the first thing I checked when I saw the mess. I thought it may have vibrated loose or I forgot to tighten it. All good and tight there.

I bought a pressure tester from Sears today, so I am planning on pressurizing the system this week to see what I find. Thanks for the replies and I will update after some investigation.

Todd

[Nova73Hatchback]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1326520&forum_id=3

Might be worth looking at...

Sean

[Nova_Guy]

Are you running head studs or bolts? My head studs seap a little anti freeze, the engine builder told me to use stop leak on the initial start-up. I have heard it is really common for them to seap water.

[DriveWFO]

Are you running head studs or bolts? My head studs seap a little anti freeze, the engine builder told me to use stop leak on the initial start-up. I have heard it is really common for them to seap water.

I know of another member on here that had that same problem with the head studs. Needed to use sealer.

[Nova_Guy]

On my BBC several of the lower external studsd leaked but none under the valve covers have leaked so far. I used lots of sealer on those and ran them in finger tight the best I remeber. I followed the directions on all of them. Why some leaked I don't know. My heads have never been re-tourqed since I started it.

[hotrodssnova]

did you drive the car long enough to "cook" all the moisture, condensation, out of the engine?
if the ride sits in an unheated garage, the sudden change in temps will cause condensation to form in the oil and resualt in the "milky" stuff. perhaps it leaked due to the change in temp and being parked for the season. are you low on coolant? it might be a simple fix of letting engine idle fo about 1/2 hour to burn out condensation.
eliminate the simple stuff first if no tell tale signs are present. then work to the exspensive stuff.
hope this helps,
eric

[66 II]

OK...

Hooked up the pressure tester and the system holds at 15psi with no leaks.

What gives? Condensation from sitting in an unheated garage for the winter? >>> Good advice hotrodsnova!!

By the way, no where near the problem in the link provided by Nova73.

Todd

[Dan_Lebherz]

I am curious about the overheating problem you had last year.
What did it take to cure that.
Is you system properly burped?
Have you drained the oil yet?
Would hate to think of the worst - cracked block or heads.
Did you have a proper anti-freeze mixture in the system over the winter?

[66 II]

Dan,

The overheating problem was actually not really an overheating problem. The sensor for the gauge was mounted in the head. The temp reading at the gauge was correct at 210. I was really paranoid with the new AFR heads, so I never let the temp get any hotter. The car has the new larger version BeCool radiator, dual 11" fans, and an aluminum high flow pump. I moved the sensor to the intake next to the thermostat for an accurate reading.

I have not drained the oil yet. I was planning on doing that adn changing the filter this week as well so I could post a pic for more information.

50/50 mix of water to antifreeze for the winter. The mixture was tested to protect well below zero (just in case) when I drained the fuel before winter.

Todd

[taz3]

210 is OK for SBC me 89 Iroc runs 200+ watch for the amount of water coming out with oil.Water will be first,also check color if they stay seperate you can tell if it coolant or condensation that way.Some milky oil is possible condensation but usually oil goes milky after a little time of engine not getting to propper operating temp.My wifes vehicle do this because she only drives 2 miles.The boys with stud possibility sound like they are on the right track if the leak test didn't show anthing keep posting.

[66 II]

An update on the oil and water situation...

I changed the oil today and found what looks to be a little less than a quarter cup of coolant mixed in the oil (7 quarts). Also, I pulled the valve covers and found milky oil about and 1/8" thick stuck the inside of the valve covers. The heads looked fine. I cleaned the valve covers, PCV valve, and breather and put everything back together. The residue on the inside of the valve covers supports the condensation theory, but just in case, I got some Bars stop leak for the radiator. I will drive it and keep an eye on the oil to see what happens.

What do you guys think?

Todd

[9SecAntique]

Sounds like you definitely have a leak coming up through head studs then. You mentioned it held 15psi...was this a leak down or static pressure?

[taz3]

Has to be studs see if the head maker has info on sealing the studs sorry I can't offer any help new to aluminum heads and studs.Keep us posted I will be installing this set up on my big block,I would like to know what to watch for.Good luck

[66 II]

Not running studs in the heads...ARP bolts

Todd

[9SecAntique]

What type of sealant was used to seal the threads on those bolts?

[Real McCoy]

I have had some stud/bolt thread leaks on motors. I have tried ARP sealant, Lok Tite sealant, Hylomar, GM thread sealer and a couple others and they all can leak. Stop leak seals them up with a 10 lb pressure cap. Every time I put anti freeze in my personal stuff for the winter the studs seem to leak again even after a season of racing with water and no leaks. I think they leak because I and many others start with used blocks most of the time and chase the block threads with a tap which may loosen the threads slightly. Don't remember any new blocks leaking. RM

[66 II]

I too chased the threads with a clean-out tap before I installed the heads!

I used the ARP thread sealer on the bolts.

What has made everone focus on the head bolts? Was it the fact that the inside of the valve covers were coated?

Todd

[9SecAntique]

Who did the stroker clearance? There may be a hair-line crack along those clearanced areas that has caused a fissure size leak. Bottomline is you have water/coolant coming in from some where and it needs to be fixed before you wipe a bearing.

[Paul Wright]

You have a problem. It won't fix itself so be prepared to take the engine apart before it comes apart on it's own.

The green stuff in the pan is coolant not condensation. The milky stuff is oil and water. Coolant has water in it and whn it gets hot the water separates out. (remember once it leaks into the pan it's not a closed system anymore).

You may have a leak that opens up when hot. Culprits are, but not limited to:
Head bolts
Head gaskets or block deck.
Intake gasket at the coolant ports
crack in block (Check clearancing area. You may have nicked into the cooling jacket)

Tip:
Head bolt threads should be cleaned with a chaser tap not a thread cutting tap.
Some taps make the threads too loose. Conversly threads that are too tight cause the torque wrench to click too soon and cause under torquing.

[66 II]

OK...

The tap I used for the head bolts was a chaser tap, not a cutting tap and I as I stated in an earlier post, I am aware the "green stuff" is coolant, hence the reason for the post.

It seems to me the first three items mentioned by Paul would cause the system to lose pressure even when cold (the system held 15psi)

Should I check the system with the pressure tester while the engine is up to operating temperature to see if it still holds pressure?

Todd

[taz3]

That might be a good idea but it is dangerous unless there is a right way to do it.Man I wish I could be their to help,it's hard to diagnois like this.I'm wondering if the head shrink from cold enough to allow coolant to make its way to oil pan.

[Paul Wright]

OK...

The tap I used for the head bolts was a chaser tap, not a cutting tap and I as I stated in an earlier post, I am aware the "green stuff" is coolant, hence the reason for the post.

It seems to me the first three items mentioned by Paul would cause the system to lose pressure even when cold (the system held 15psi)

Should I check the system with the pressure tester while the engine is up to operating temperature to see if it still holds pressure?

Todd

I know you know the green stuff is coolant however you seemed perplexed by the milky valve covers. Your coolant has about 50% water in it and that will evaporate when it gets to 212 F. This is what is causing the milky residue.

Any of those things I listed could seal when cold and leak only when hot because of expansion.
Whatever it is it's probably very small leak judging from the amount of coolant. It may be very hard to find.

When a cooling system is hot it is under pressure. It would be very dangerous to add more pressure to a hot system.

Here's what you know:

It only leaks when hot.
It only leaks inside the engine not outside.
The leak is small, about a cup of coolant in 1-2 hours of running.
So do the following in this order:
1. Pull the plugs and look for signs of burned coolant.
2. Pull the intake and see if there are traces of green in the valley.
3. If not, then pull the heads and examine the head gaskets and head bolt holes.
4, Lastly, pull the block and check it for cracks.

My first guess would be the intake gasket is leaking at the coolant passage. Look at plugs #1 and 7, 2 and 8.

[9SecAntique]

Case of beer on the stroker clearancing:beer:

I speak from experience...happened to us on the dyno. We ran the brand new motor for 15 minutes and it was able to turn the oil milky "white". Oh yeah...like pure milk. Saved the motor just in time as number 7 was just starting to wipe.

You're gonna have to take the motor apart no matter what the cause. Might as well knock it out now.

Sonic check showed a thin clearance area that was then magnufluxed. Bingo...crack.

Just my experience.

[66 II]

Pulled the intake yesterday to check for leaks and it looks like the intake gasket was leaking around the cooling ports. It's hard to tell...so I changed the oil, intake gasket, cleaned the PCV valve, valve covers,and breather and fired ity back up. Planning on taking it for exhaust next week.

I can't help but keep thinking that a leaky intake gasket would have caused the pressure to fall when I pressure tested the system:confused: :confused:

Todd ... gun shy!!

[taz3]

Could be just the way the aluminum heats up or cools down faster than cast block.When everything is cold it is tight enough to keep it from leaking even with pressure test,but at temp or some point during cool down could open just enough to leak it is possible.Hopefully you got it fixed.

[Tommy]

Hope you got it fixed. I checked and added some oil for A guy yesterday at work (Advance Auto) and he had the worst lookng oil I had ever seen. It was that milky looking chocolate vanilla swirl stuff and when I told the guy about it he said it had been that way for several years???? I was checking it because he is A diabetic and can't see well enough to check it himself:( . Heres whats neat though, he drives A 73 Cuda with the original 340 auto in it. He has had it over 25 years and it is his daily driver. He told me yesterday he had just gotten out of the Nursing home and was finally getting to drive again. Neat guy/neat car. Not sure what was causing his oil/water situation though.

Tommy:)

[taz3]

That sounds like not warming up to burn off moisture in the engine,short trips will cause that my wife vehicles always do this cause she works close to home 2 miles and they never really warm up enough.

[furball8994]

Todd. Whenever your oil looks milky it means you have water in the oil. There is only 2 ways water can get into the oil. 1. A leaking gasket, 2 A cracked block. You said it overheated last year. You may have blown a head gasket or warped a head. If the intake gasket doesn't stop your problem, you may have to pull the heads. If the gaskets look OK I'd take the heads to be checked for warpage.

[66 II]

Well...an update.

Since the car had no mufflers, I trailered it car to the shop for exhaust and drove it home. On the way, the car started running like a three legged dog. I was in the process of losing a cylinder and my wife, who was following me with a tow rope, reported a foul smeeling white smoke out of the new right tail pipe. Next step, pull the plugs.

What would the plugs look/smell like if a head gasket is blown?
What would cause a head gasket to blow?

Thanks,
Todd...this is a fun hobby...right?

[kceb10]

the plugs would be wet with coolant if it was bad enough

the head or block are no flat possibly or incorrect torque on head bolts or maybe just a bad head gasket



stop useing the nitrous:D :D

[69novashotgun]

Wow I’m having the same problem only with stock heads and I also live in plainfield.
:chev:

[mrtimstik]

Wow I’m having the same problem only with stock heads and I also live in plainfield.
:chev:

Shotgun, Have you had any time to investigate this further?