PCV Air/oil separator

[1963DUCE100]

My dad had a air/oil seperator installeld in his pick-up and his caddy. Its run inlune in the PCV line that runs to the throttle body. There is a "filter bowl" that collects the oil that. It seems that they make more power now, and they swear that that your engine burns cleaner and will last longer. Has anyone else herad of this before. I'll try to find the name of the company, and a web site too.

[davidkontra]

I had one in a turbocharged car and was amazed at what it caught. I used a fule filter housing that you could replace the element in. I did not use the filter though. Cheaper than buying a real catch can. about 4 bucks at your local Autozone, schlep boys

[68SSGrandpa]

I run a catch can.
I don't run a turbo, but all the turbo guys run one. They have found that at boost, even the slightest mist can cause detonation, and they all know that the PCV WILL let mist past it, boost, or no boost.
I ran a line from the PCV to the can, then from the can to the base of a 1" spacer. Just after the catch can I plumbed in a large gas filter before that line goes back to the base plate. It also catches any excess mist that the can misses.
The can after a week of very hard runs 300 miles, gets about an ounce of oil in it. You can see oil in the filter as well.
If I drive at normal speeds rev's under 5,000, there is no oil accumulation. If however, I am hitting my rev limiter 6,600 a lot, which I do, then I get oil in the can.
I don't know if there is a measurable difference, as I have not tested it on the rear wheel dyno.
One thing is certain, without the can, that oil was ingested into the engine, which will decrease power, and could cause detonation.

[davidkontra]

We didnt run the catch can for detonation, 68SSGrandpa, we ran it because our cars would vent the pvc into the intake before the turbocharger and we didnt want oil on the compressor. Detonation was the result of too much boost and not enough timing, resulting is a severe dieseling issue, then a piston and con rod saying goodbye to the crank. When I first saw the pictures of Novaboys pistons......my first though was "Wow, How much boost was he running!"

[IgnitionMan]

Many people don't reailze that oil mixing with inlet fuels LOWERS the overall octane of the fuel.

People that have run/raced premix/oil injected two stroke engines know this all too well.

[1963DUCE100]

I found the name and the web site $179 ouch!!!
http://www.condensatorsales.com/

[68SSGrandpa]

When you phyically see the oil/water that a crankcase evac system takes out its amazing. Mine is not a Vac system, but a simple catch the crap system.
I read the entire article on that " Condensor" device. One thing that caught my attention was that the condensor will remove oil and water vapor, which looks white when collected.

The PCV system was invented to recirculate ( burn) the polution/stink/water and oil vapour that developes in your crankcase.
Made sence to me, that I really didn't want to burn that crap to save the environment, maybe I could find a better way. Would you want to dump that stuff direct into your gas tank? You might as well, cause you are burning it anyway. What does it cost in HP to burn a bit of oil and water vapour?
Normally the PCV is hooked direct to the intake system, so I just put a catch can, and an oversize gas filter in its path before returning to the intake. Now my engine still sucks crankcase air, but its free of oil mist / water, and unburnt hydrocarbons.
The oversize gas filter at 500 miles looks like a jar of Mayo has been spit into it. The catch can if I street beat 6,600 rev limiter for all 500 miles has about 6 oz of oil in it.

Yahoo, I have saved the environment again, and in the process generated a lot, not just a few extra HP.

I have not rear wheel dyno'ed the gain, but it is a noticable gain.

[Toms73NovaSS]

Here is another nice unit but pricy!

http://www.accmachtech.com/pcvcatchcans.htm

[shawn63]

68SSGrandpa; any chance you have a pic of this rig.

[Lethal Injection]

How about one way check valves for these set-ups?.

[68SSGrandpa]

Shawn63,
I have about 10 pics of it, but currently do not have a host site for them.
I did an initial test hooking from the PCV direct to the carb base with just the filter in between, no catch can. That test and picture shows about 1 oz+ of oil in the bottom of the filter, and the filter 100% soaked in oil from the mist. That test was a brand new filter, and 50 miles of street driving with some serious hard throttle runs.
I did one more test with a new filter plumbed without the can again, this time driving normal, without super hard throttle. On that test, the filter got soaking wet, but no large accumulation in the bottom of the filter.

It was after seeing the accumulation of oil from hard runs, I plumbed a catch can as well.
By the way, my oil between changes is now pristine clean. Before that, with all the recycling of gasses/mist, my engine was doing, the oil would be dark at 750 miles.

Just to let you know, my engine has no exessive blowby. In fact, we have very strict smog rules here, and yearly have to run an aircare test on a rear wheel dyno to get insurance. I have aircared this engine for 3 years, prior to the can system, and this year with the can system it aircared like a Honda, see my cam spec below, also we have a 950HPXE Holley .

Lethal, a PCV has a check valve built in, so the worst you can do is blow a line off the catch can, but it would never back up past the PCV valve.

[1963DUCE100]

This is the filter housing I was going to use as a catch can
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sum-g1501.jpg
I think that it would work just as good. only $27.95 from summit

[Paul Wright]

This is very interesting. I've used catch cans before on race cars but the stainless mesh used in both units to separate oil from the air is a novel idea. The more expensive unit also has silicate gel for water absorbtion.
Their claims of 15% mpg increase is intriguing. Anything worth 2mpg is worth investigating.

[1963DUCE100]

Mom says that her caddy gets better milage but dads truck gets worse, but that is because he cant keep his foot out of it, old men and thier toys:D

[68SSGrandpa]

Shawn63
I have placed a few pic in photobucket.
The one up near the valve cover was the test, filter from the PCV direct to the carb base. I gathered about an ounce of oil in one street run. The rest of the pictures are not to great for placement of the can, but I put the can by the rad.
http://photobucket.com/albums/e200/Nova68SS/
Hope this link works, I have not used photo bucket before.

[shawn63]

Link works fine; thanks. Is there anything inside your catch can such as mesh? Is it purpose built for pcv use or was designed for something else?

[68SSGrandpa]

Shawn,
Purpose built as catch can for in line with a PCV, made by Greddy.If you do an internet search on Oil Catch Cans, you will come up with a few. I belive I studdied about 7 or 8 different ones, and settled on this one. Mainly because it has a sight tube to see oil accumulation.
No screen inside, but the inlet tube goes down 1/2 to the bottom, and the outlet vac side tube is near the top of the can. That way, when the can starts to fill, hopefully never, the top suction side is not submurged in oil. If you look close there is a sight tube running the length of the can. As it collects oil the oil raises up that sight tube, so you can see how full it is. The tube also has a bung at the bottom for draining the can.
I would not trust stainless mesh, because I have seen how milky, like I said as thich as Mayo that the oil/water/vapour sludge gets. I would think especially in cold weather, it would get thicker than 190wt grease, and just plug that screen.

I don't think you can see my entire set-up in those photo's. My PCV line runs to that can under my inner fendor and attaches to the can, mounted by the Rad. From the can, the out line goes to the filter, then through my inner fendor toward the back of the motor, and then attaches to a 1" open spacer I have under my carb.
By running the lines behind my inner fendor, they are all hidden. All you see is the catch can by the rad on the passengers side. The window washer container hides the filter.

[darkmagus]

After finding some oil build up in the intercooler on my Subaru, I installed an inline universal fuel filter that I picked up from Napa. It worked quite well but you have to keep an eye on it, or at least the small one I got, to make sure it stays clean. I ended up getting a generic stainless steel catch can on ebay and it worked like a charm. It was around $30 IIRC.

[Toms73NovaSS]

The nut that I am, I have been kickin around the idea of making one for a while particulary for my supercharged firebird. Well this thread got me off my butt. I did not want to pay $169 for that fancy can that I posted before so I decided to make one. Mine is made from copper dwv pipe 1.5 inch in diameter and standard copper pipe fittings.

In my design the "dirty" vapor enters thru the top side. Then the air must travel down and up a center pipe. The pipe at the bottom has points on it to help cause the oil to drip down and inside of the pipe there is a brass plate with holes in it to also help reain the oil. At the top of the pipe/can assembly I am putting in a stainess fuel filter screen (I'm going to see how this works out-dont want it plugging up- also don't drive it in cold weater).

I'll post pics of my progress should cost about $25 buck when done.

I did not want a large catch can this will be about 6" long when done and 1.5" in diameter.

[Toms73NovaSS]

Ok here is what I put together.

The parts:

6" of 1.5 DWV copper pipe
2 1.5 caps (one end cap drilled hole to size of brass collar of union)
1 3/4 union (turned brass hex down on lathe to make circular)
1 1.5" of 3/5 pipe used on bottom of union to join coupler and hold brass disk with holes
1 3/4 coupler with points cut on bottom end
1 piece of brass with 1/8 holes cut to into circle to use as a condenser to help stop oil bypass
1 brass reducer which I turned down to fit in top of union and join brass elbow to top

2 brass elbows
1 3.8 hose barbs
1 petcock

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/tjkoprevich/f779bb5f.jpg

Here is what the center baffle looks like:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/tjkoprevich/a783950b.jpg

Almost finished catch can (still need to attach mounting brackets) and paint:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/tjkoprevich/786c7d9a.jpg

[68SSGrandpa]

Tom,
Looks good to me.
Just for a check to see how much it is catching you could put, like I did a clear glass fuel filter ( mine is plastic $3.95) on the return side to see if its " catching " everything.
When I did my original test, I made all of the lines out of 100% clear plastic hose. That is when I got the surprise of my life. I could actually see the oil flow through the clear plastic. Before I had my secondary gas line filter on, there were still trace amounts of mist/oil & vapour getting out the other end of the can, back to the intake manifold. That clear plastic test made me a believer.
The gas line filter gets that last little bit of muck out of the system, before it goes to the manifold.
I blew through my finished can/filter system to see how restrictive it was, and there is zero air restriction, so that filter does nothing to stop air flow.
I know this extra filter is a bit anal, but if your going to clean it up, I figured might as well do it 100%.

I personally am not sold on a screen inside the can. I have seen the creamy white froth that comes out of the PCV when the engine is warming up. Cold engine oil has condensation in it, and takes 212F to burn the water out of the oil. If the can never heats past 212F, that stuff like I had said is a thick as whipped mayo, and may block the internal screen. That is why I put a down leg screen ( gas filter) in mine.

On one test I did, I had just the gas line filter from the PCV to the manifold, a very short line. On cold engine start, that filter filled 100% full of whiteish cream, lucky that it was almost on top of my engine as the warmth from the motor eventually unplugged it. It does not have to be super cold to generate condensation in your crankcase, mine sits in a heated garage. Take oil from 270+ to 60 degrees, and you will make condensation.

This is why short trips are such a killer on your motor, if you don't heat the oil enough to burn off the water/condensation, the mill will not last long, unless of course you change the oil real regular.
I have never seen a secondary filter like mine put on a catch can system. But like I said, I tested everything with 100% clear hose before I made the final install, and the clear lines sold me on installing the extra downleg 4 dollar filter.

[Toms73NovaSS]

Could you give me a applicaiton for that filter? Where did you pick it up, part number?

This way I can go to the autoparts store and not get a blank stare from the guy behind the counter. Most of the time if you dont know a vehicle they stare at you slack jawed.:rolleyes:

[68SSGrandpa]

Tom,
GK industries, largest manufacturer of filters around. The picture when you plug in the number is not what i got in the box. Here is the part 23-3582-2 and # GF1481.
When you ask for it, open the box, clear plastic, but what they show on the web site is metal.
www.gkindustries.com/FuelFilters.aspx
The inlet, and out are smaller than a PCV hose, so you are going to have to make a fitting. What I did is use a hose adapter to go from smaller to larger.
Or, what you can do is go to a Pep Boys/AutoZone or like store, and open boxes till you find a filter with a sight glass. I opened 30+ boxes to find this one.
You can go back a few posts to my PhotoBucket link and see the filter.

[Toms73NovaSS]

thanks for the info!http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Nova63]

68SSGRANDPA,
You've got a message...
Matt

[DriveWFO]

Is it possible to create a PCV valve to handle the oil blow-by instead of plumbing in a catch-can?

[sproosemoose]

is anyone on this site using an evacuation system like this one available from moroso:

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=/egnsearch.asp&N=400105

i've got one that i've slowly been putting on. it's not plumbed back into the engine so i'm hoping it will have the same effect. should i expect this goo in my exhaust?

[68SSGrandpa]

Drive WFO,
I don't get the question!!!!
A PCV is to control the blowby/ crankcase fumes and help equalize some pressure from the crankcase.
Most Turbo, and supercharger set ups in the last few years have found that " Blowby fumes " replumbed into the intake track, conribute to detonation when under boost.

A Catch can is usually used in a boosted engine, and or, in union with a Vac System. There are a zillion Vac systems out there, 2 vane, 3 vane etc. These need a catch can no doubt, as the good Vac's can draw 30 plus inches. That will suck up an aweful lot of oil mist. In fact most of the vac systems rely on that sucked up oil for thier own lubrication. This is why most of them cannot be successfully run on a street motor. With too much low idle, the rotating assembly is not whipin enough oil to lube the vanes for reliable strret use.

My ring seal, and leak down testing after break-in was surprisingly good, and I do not have a blowby issue. This is not why I put in a can system.

My sole purpose was to filter and drop the suspended oil/water/condensate, before re-introducing it to the combustion chamber.

Works for me!

[Lethal Injection]

Guys, I need some help finding a one way check valve for my turbo engine. I can't find one. I have just been using breathers but need to change.

[Toms73NovaSS]

I got mine for my firebird from www.ramchargers.com I tried their site and it did not come up? Its application usually is for Grand Nationals.

[Paul Wright]

I got mine for my firebird from www.ramchargers.com I tried their site and it did not come up? Its application usually is for Grand Nationals.

Ramchargers was a Michigan based company and is currently out of business.
I think the combination of the economy and internet mail order shops are hurting the Brick and Mortar speeds shops.

[NOGO]

is anyone on this site using an evacuation system like this one available from moroso:

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=/egnsearch.asp&N=400105

i've got one that i've slowly been putting on. it's not plumbed back into the engine so i'm hoping it will have the same effect. should i expect this goo in my exhaust?

The system you are looking at evacuates the crankcase using vacuum created from exhaust flow through your collectors. I dont know if this evac system will work with mufflers and an exhaust system because of the backpressure. Im pretty sure its not intended for use on a street car.

[Lethal Injection]

The system you are looking at evacuates the crankcase using vacuum created from exhaust flow through your collectors. I dont know if this evac system will work with mufflers and an exhaust system because of the backpressure. Im pretty sure its not intended for use on a street car.

I am sure it will not work. Not enough vacuum.I looked at that first. It is meant for open header cars with plenty of flow.

[NOGO]

I am sure it will not work. Not enough vacuum.I looked at that first. It is meant for open header cars with plenty of flow.

Thats what I figured- thanks for the clarification.

[Toms73NovaSS]

Ok,

I have done a ton of searching,, Grumpy, every 7 different parts dealers come up with a metal screw on canister for that filter #.

So I narrowed it down and found for a 1974 Toyota Carona looks like your filter. Many manufactures have an opaque plastic so you cannot see into the filter. The Wix (Napa Gold, Carquest) part # 3066 has a clearer bottom and you can sort of see. One that I would like to get a hold of is an AC Delco GF512, in the picture it looks really pretty clear.


Click to see pic
http://198.208.187.182/internet/PartImage.jsp?mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=47&acpartnbr=GF512

[68SSGrandpa]

Tom, That is the one I use.
Keep in mind that the in-out tube size is a lot smaller than a PCV hose ID.
I had some clear tube in various sizes laying around, so I managed to increase the ID with a hose slipped onto the smaller ID, then the PCV hose on top of that.
I have 3 of them were $3.95ea at Canadian Tire here. But looks like you got the right Delco part #, and I think GF probably makes them, for Delco.
At 4 bucks a pop, when the first one got oil soaked, I just cleaned it out with gas. Then, went back to the store and purchased 3 more new ones, they are so cheap no more cleaning for me, I will just toss them.