Lack of Zinc in oil? (merged threads)

[Nova72]

I've read on various sites where some people add a bottle of GM EOS with their oil when doing the initial break-in of a new motor. BUT, I read on the bottle that it is to be used as an assembly lube not as an additive. Hmmmm?

[WILMASBOYL78]

Back in the day all my buddies used this stuff for break in time. I used to coat the cam, lifters and valve train parts with the stuff. Sort of the GM version of STP.

wilma

[loneagle]

EOS can be used for assembly lube and during the break in too. I like to mix it with a little motor oil and use it in a squirt can when I assemble an engine.

[Nova72]

My engine is already assembled. I was going to add a bottle of the EOS with the oil going in the crankcase. When I read that on the label it made me wonder, is it really OK to do that?

[Paul Wright]

I can remember when GM spec'd the stuff for break-in but they have obviously chnged their position. I think it's because modern oils don't need extra additives.

If you properly lubed the cam and lifters and your engine was machined and cleaned properly then you shouldn't need it. Cam breakin is the most critical part to be concerned about. The lifters get there lube from oil splash so whatever's in the pan won't reach them for several seconds on start up. That's why you have to lube those surfaces with the clinging lubricant on assembly.
Make sure your distributor is in correctly and the carb is set up so it starts and runs right away. Most flat cams come from extended start up sessions.
Verify the pushrods are twirling.

[Fatcat]

I've been told that the original EOS contained zinc, but that it has been removed from the formula due to EPA regs. I still have 7 bottles left of the original, wish I had more.

[72VenturaII]

The big block people at Team Chevelle swear by this stuff for initial break in. I figure anything that will help prevent a wiped cam lobe can't hurt.

[mikemen12]

The problem is compounded with Kendall oil that is no longer green and the EOS that no longer has zinc in it. Kendall will tell you that nothing has changed (B.S.) we used to drain the oil and it would still be green after a couple of races, the new stuff looks dirty after 50 laps.
So, since you cant break in the camshaft on synthetic, Green Kendall and EOS was the ticket for not hurting the cam in the first five minutes (along with 1.2 rockers) back in the day.

[Nova_Guy]

I read in the new Car Craft magazine that several camshaft makers have been having lots of returns on camshafts for loosing lobes on breakin. It seems some of the newer oils have a lower level of zinc. I guess that provides some of the protection that stops camshaft wear. I believe that Crane Cams were the first to figure it out. Is this something new or old news I just heard about?

[patman]

Then again, it might be an attempt to deflect blame for the recent rash of bad internet buzz about failures on initial breakin for a certain brand of cams.

[Fatcat]

Its pretty much old news now. I think the EPA mandated removal of zinc from many products. The biggest loss to me was the loss of zinc in GM EOS. I've got some of the old stuff left, but when its gone thats it. There was a father son Ford drag race team from Washington state named Van Cleve, they were other worldly in their performance, I once saw them add 2 cans of EOS to a fresh unrun motor they were dropping in, I did some research after seeing that.

[Paul Wright]

I read that too and was intrigued because we've had a discussion on root cause of cam lobe failures. If the lack of zinc in oil causes lobe failures why isn't everyone having lobe failures? Sounds like a shred of truth being stretched into a new urban legend. Remember the doom scenarios's when lead was taken out of gas?

I'll have to ask around and try to find out what's true and what's not.

[Nova_Guy]

My theory is that roller camshafts don't need the same additives as a flat tappet camshaft? Do any of the newer cars have a flat tappet camshaft? I think that flat tappet camshafts are mostly used by rebuilders and it's easy to blame failurs on a small shop or a shadetree mechanic. When you rebuild an engine every five or ten years you are an easy target for the reason why the camshaft fails. It could be a rumor or a reason.

[Fatcat]

I'm guessing that some premature cam failures might be caused when the lifters used don't have the stellite slug on the bottom (flat lifters only). It seems like zinc was a band aid of sorts for soft lifters that got them turning and got through the break in without killing the cam. I was having so much trouble at one point, I'd use some #80 grit sandpaper and scuff the bottom of the stubborn lifters to get them to turn in their bores while I rotated the cam with a speed handle,(no pushrods or chain of course). I only did this on motors where a stellite lifter was not available.

[njciscool]

I'm curious as to how many of these failures were from idiots not breaking thier cams in properly?

no problem for me though, I'm just going to use rollers from now on!

[RED67]

The "lack of zinc" is old news.Seems it coats the ox sensors on new cars so most oil companys have reduced the zinc content,Mobil 1 has none.
The break-in is important.We assemble,break-in and race 3 oil changes with 20w50 Kendal GT1 to inpregnate the cams,followers and other parts then switch to 10w40 Mobil 1.The link gives a little insight into this situation.
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

Best,WP

[YFH8SIT]

The new Hot Rod Mag has an article about Cam Break in and problems the Cam manufactures have been plagued with.

They recommend Diesel Oil during Cam break in. Apparently due to emission standards oil companies have been forced to take out certain types of lubricants, however Diesel Oil and Off Road racing oil still contain this lubricant that Cam companies like to see during break in. They recommended using Rotellla T diesel oil

Any one else heard of this?


http://www.rotella.com/products/

[Paul Wright]

that's the latest tip.
btw, here's a tip: if you make a mistake on a post just use the EDIT button rather than posting it again.

[FunkyNova66]

Any one else heard of this?


http://www.rotella.com/products/A good friend of mine broke his motor in using Rotella T diesel oil. Seems to do just fine.:D

[Nova1194]

I dont just break in cams on Rottella, I run it all the time in my nova, my pickup and my motorcycle. When breaking in cams I also add a bottle of GM oil additive.
I work at a truck dealership and see engines go a million miles running this stuff so it must be pretty good.
Besides still having zinc for the added prevention of metal to metal contact, it has higher detegent levels and really keeps the insides of your engine clean, and because most all heavy duty diesels have gear trains for running the cams it has additives for gear lubrication for the tranny in my motorcycles.

Mike

[RED67]

Like Nova1194 said zinc is the key ingredient to prevent scuffing metal to metal parts.Kendal GT1 has one of the highest precentages of zinc,making it a good break-in oil also,,,,then switch to your favorite light weight synthetic.
Or lighter weight Kendal for that matter,,,thin is fast:D

The reason you don't see Kendal products in the chain stores is the zinc "plates" the Ox sensors on the newer cars causing false readings.Also note that most of the newer synthetic oils have no zinc at all.Personally we run-in our engines with GT1 and then switch to Mobil 1:shh:
Try:
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.html

Hope these links work:o
FWIW RED67:chev:

[novamike]

I run Shell's Rotella T 15-40 in my 60 series Detroit.I overhauled the motor at 1,017,00 miles.Every internal part was perfect except for ring and liner wear which was to be expected.This is at changing oil and filters every 12,000 to 14,000 miles.No sludge buildup or much of varishing.Thats why most semi -truck owners use Shell.I can gaurantee you that a truck motor will find any weak point in an oil's formulation.
Mike

[Nova_Guy]

I read in Car Craft a few months ago. They claimed that is why so many aftermarket rebuilds have camshaft problems. I posted it here and no one knew for sure if it was true or not. Kind of makes me wonder how many of the folks here that had cams go bad did so because of this.

[IgnitionMan]

One thing to consider, Diesel engines all run roller tappet cams.

Another is, that the oils don't "shear" as easily with roller cams versus a flat tappet cam, BUT, Diesel engiens also have compression ratios that ate astronomical compared to our gasoline engines, so the oil has to be formulated for the added pressures on rod bearings from the Diesel compression ratios.

Rotella is darned good stuff, just wish they made a straight weight oil.

[69NovaSS]

Rotella is darned good stuff, just wish they made a straight weight oil.

it sorta looks like they might make straight weight oils:confused: :)
http://www.rotella.com/products/rotella_t_single.html

[Nova63]

What about AMSOIL?
They have the 3000 series diesel syn oil in:
5w-30
15w-40
SAE 30

I dont know, never tried AMSOIL but heard much good about their stuff...
Anyone?

Matt

[Nova_Guy]

Looks like the wifes tale I asked about back in January isn't one after all. :rolleyes:

[Paul Wright]

If you read the current story in Hotrod they describe many causes of cam/lifter failure. Zinc is just one cause. The also talk about lifter shortages and cheap imports (that doesn't explain the people that buy same brand lifter cam/lifter kits) and most importantly Scooter is quoted (and I agree) that the number one cause of cam failure is people not breaking in their cams properly.

This is indeed a controversial topic but I can't see any harm is using a high zinc oil for break-in, but that's NO substitute for lifting the valve covers and checking for lifter rotation. If only one isn't spinning then you have to investigate and replace.

I merged the threads so the discussion is in one place.

[Nova_Guy]

If you read the current story in Hotrod they describe many causes of cam/lifter failure. Zinc is just one causeI agree with that completely, I had a lobe go flat on my engine right after I rebuilt it several years ago. I knew then that I had gotten some of the lifters mixed up and were on different lobes. It was a cheap and fast rebuild when I was in college. It had broken a couple pistons and I did a quicky ring & bearing job on it. I knew it was wrong when I did it and paid the price about an hour later.
This time if I had know about high zinc oil this on my current engine I spent over 6k on it would have had a used an oil higher in zinc. When I started the engine this time I had spent lots of time priming the oil, making sure the timing was on and carburator was ready to go. When it started it was running within a couple of cranks and I followed Edelbrocks specs on cam break-in.

I do agree with you improper break in is the leading killer of camshafts.

[Hawk1]

While researching different oils for their Zinc content one oil company wrote that a higher percentage does not add more protection but will remain in the oil for a longer interval for extended oil change schedule.
FWIW

[Fatcat]

The excellent article in the June Hot Rod leaves open the question of whether or not the new EOS does or doesn't have zinc still in it. GM also has a cam break in additive available I wasn't aware of. The article has a picture of both but does not state absolutly that they have zinc, does anyone have firsthand knowlege if they do or don't? The article is a must read for anyone running a flat tappet cam. Two oils that do still have zinc are Quaker State "Q Racing" oil, and Shell Rotella. There are other diesel oils also. The down side is that the diesel oils will be phasing out zinc starting next year. Just got off the phone with Shell Answer man, Rotella comes in 10/30, not common but it exsists.

[JTW]

I had a conversation with my engine builder about this earlier this week. He said certain Valvoline oils still have zinc (see below) and I think he said some Kendall oils may have zinc also. The Valvoline Racing oil states it has zinc, but the street-legal VR1 does not.

Valvoline Racing SAE Engine Oil 10W-30
Code: XXX850-6
Availability: Usually ships the next business day.
Everyday Price: $6.29
Sale Price: $5.99, 6/$34.74
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/rodi_1898_117174262
Valvoline Conventional Racing Oil is designed for racing application only. Its unique formulation contains premium mineral base stocks and advanced additive technology to reduce internal friction and help enhance horsepower output.

-The Valvoline Racing Conventional Motor Oil Advantages
Designed for high-performance racing engines
-Proven to provide more horsepower than the most widely used engine oils in grassroots racing
-Helps increase horsepower through advanced friction modifiers balanced with reduced detergent levels
-Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection
-Not for use in wet clutch applications. 10W-30
-NOT STREET LEGAL

[JTW]

I found this about the Kendall GT-1 oils:

Zinc, wt%: 0.113 in 20W-50 grade
more info here:
http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/NR/rdonlyres/564D4F3C-C333-421D-A015-BB3031A927A8/0/K_GT1_HP_MO.pdf

But what is considered a good percentage?

[Fatcat]

Just talked to a Lucas guy, seems consistant that about 1/10 of a per cent should be good (0.100). Rotella is .140, Pennzoil 20w-50 racing is .196, and Q Racing is .200. I'm thinking the cheapest way for me to go is 10 cases of 10-30 Rotella stashed in the corner, that should carry me into the post alsheimer era where I'll be looking in the mirror every day meeting new friends and won't be caring about zinc/oil percentages.

[69NovaSS]

I'm thinking the cheapest way for me to go is 10 cases of 10-30 Rotella stashed in the corner.

I'm thinking this is a good idea too....best to get it while the getting is good.

I wonder if having high levels of zinc in the oil is why big rigs commenly get 500++K's on them between rebuilds?
:confused:

[wskaiser]

I wonder if having high levels of zinc in the oil is why big rigs commenly get 500++K's on them between rebuilds?
:confused:

I think the superior filtering systems that big rigs have contributes to their long life plus they are up to operating temperatures for extended periods of time and that eliminates a lot of the corrosive buildup in the oil.

[69NovaSS]

I think the superior filtering systems that big rigs have contributes to their long life plus they are up to operating temperatures for extended periods of time and that eliminates a lot of the corrosive buildup in the oil.


ya the extending run times would help a lot...as most of the rigs once they are on the road for a run will not be shut off for the entire trip......that does help them avoid the wear that happens during start up.......How do they filter the oil that is different than a car??? Multiple remote filters maybe???

[Paulski]

How do they filter the oil that is different than a car??? Multiple remote filters maybe???

They also have oil/soot separators that help keep the oil cleaner