QUESTION: Alignment specs for 66 and lower control arm lockout kit !

I know this subject has been beat to death but I can't find the alignment specs for my car for the life of me. I have spent over an hour searching for old threads with no result.:o

Can someone point me in the right direction for alignment specs for a 66?:D

ALSO..

What setting do most people use for the lower control arm lock out kits? I have my plates set where the hole for the bolt is positioned low and towards the motor. Is this correct? I figured I would ask now before I stick the motor in.

Here is pics of my lock outs..is it right?


Front side passenger:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/Progress%20Pics/Suspension/DEC2005071.jpg

Front side drivers:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d115/FunkyNova66/Progress%20Pics/Suspension/DEC2005070.jpg

Any input is appreciated!:D :D

Dave:)

Dave, i don't know what page, but i know Rex has lockout shots at his site...


the alignment specs i'm clueless... sorry bud.

year 2, page 16 for the lockouts.


sorry that's all i could help with.

67chevyII.com Rex's site ;)

year 2, page 16 for the lockouts.


sorry that's all i could help with.

67chevyII.com Rex's site ;)
I just got done checking it out. Looks like he has his bolts mounted low and towards the wheels. If his alignment is correct in this position then it would be smart for me to go ahead and turn mine around to where the the bolts are on the outer side. I wonder if most people use this same position as baseline. Glad I asked.:D :D I also noticed his lockout kits have more offset than my lockouts. Mine has one hole but can be used in multiple positions. I wonder if anyone else can chime in on this??

Thanks Super Sport. Great torque spec info for the front end parts! The alignment specs are different from the chevy II only specs that used to be up. Looks like they redisigned their website..:( ...Does anyone else have some front end specs they would like to share. I used to have a nice long thread regarding alignment specs and people's opinion over them conflicting. I believe it was deleted.:o

Anyone want to add their 2 cents here?

SERVICE MANUAL
SECTION 14 SPECS

ALIGNMENT SPECS:
CONDITIONS: Curb weight, full tank of gasoline, full radiator, proper engine oil level, proper tire pressure level, and no passenger. heights not held.

CAMBER: -1/4 deg, +- 1/2 deg within 1/2 deg from side to side
CASTER: -1 deg, +- 1/2 deg within 1/2 deg from side to side
TOE IN: 3/16" to 5/16" total

Does this sound correct guys? Does anyone have the specs ChevyIIonly used to have posted before they went and changed their website????


Proper alignment is my #1 priority. These cars become very unstable at high speeds with incorrect alignments.

With this said...I plan to beat this thread to death until I feel I have consensus among fellow board members. Nothing is more confusing and frustrating than having different sources for alignment specs which conflict one another.

Please...carry on.:D :D :D

Here are the specs from chevy2only.:chev:

62-67 Nova Alignment Specifications
1/4 degrees positive camber both sides
1 to 1 1/2 positive caster, no more than 1/4 degree difference side to side
Set toe to "0" or 1/64 out

It may take 2 hours to get the above spec but you must adhere to it to make it right!

Gary

i saved this a while ago...

Those lock out plates for the eccentrics...no matter who makes them ...are pretty much a neccessity..and once its set...your done until something like a bushing or ball joint wears out.
Here are the alignment specs from Global West. I think these are the ones they include with their lockout kit:

Caster - 2.5 (right side)
Caster - 2.0 (left side)
Camber .5 Negative
Toe-in 3/32 (0 toe is also an option)


Per Chevy II only:

62-67 Nova Alignment Specifications
1/4 degrees positive camber both sides
1 to 1 1/2 positive caster, no more than 1/4 degree difference side to side
Set toe to "0" or 1/64 out (1/64= .0156)



So this is what we have so far:
CASTER:
Batman (suggested=.5-1.5 postive) (preferably 1 deg postive)
NOGO (suggested 1-1.5 positive) (Preferably 1.5 positive)
Chevy II only (suggested 1-1.5 positive BUT no more than .5 difference between left and right side)
CAMBER:
Batman (suggested= 0-1 postive) (preferably .5 deg postive)
NOGO (suggested 0-.5 positive) (Preferably .5 positive)
Chevy II only (suggested .25 positive)
TOE:
Batman (suggested= .25-.38 postive)
NOGO (suggested .1 positive) (Preferably .2 positive)
Chevy II only (suggested 0- .02 positive)

hi
I am a alignment tech at a gmc dealer and have done several alignments on the 1st gen nova's what i have found with these cars is the more caster you can get in them the better they will handle my normal specs i try to set are.
caster 2 +-1/2 degree positive
camber .5 positive left and right
toe no more than 3/16"

hope this will help!

:D :D Great Info guys! Keep it coming!!:D:D AND Welcome to the site kceb10! Thanks for your input!

Dave:)

Here is what we have:

CASTER:

SERVICE MANUAL PAGE 63:
Neg 1 degree (+/- .5 deg, no more than .5 deg difference from side to side).


GLOBAL WEST:
Positive 2.5 deg Right, Positive 2.0 deg left


CHEVY II ONLY:
Positive 1 to 1.5 deg (No more the .25 deg difference from side to side)


BATMAN:
Postive .5 to 1.5 deg (preferebly 1 deg positive)


NOGO:
positive 1 to 1.5 deg (Preferebly 1.5 deg positive)




CAMBER:

SERVICE MANUAL PAGE 63:
Neg .25 (1/4) degree (+/- .5 deg, no more than .5 deg difference from side to side).


GLOBAL WEST:
Negative .5 deg


CHEVY II ONLY:
Positive .25 deg both sides


BATMAN:
Postive 0 to 1 deg (preferebly .5 deg positive)


NOGO:
positive 0 to .5 deg (Preferebly .5 deg positive)



TOE:

SERVICE MANUAL PAGE 63:
Positive 3/16 to 5/16 (.1875 <.19> to .3125 <.31>

GLOBAL WEST:
Positive 3/32 (.09375 <.09>)


CHEVY II ONLY:
Positive 1/64 (.0156 <.02>)


BATMAN:
Postive .25 to .38 deg


NOGO:
suggest positive .1 deg (Preferebly .2 deg positive)





Can you see where my confusion sets in? Many of these are similar; however, SOME OF THEM are WAY OFF. Especially, the service manual specs!!:confused: :confused:

Would anyone else like to add any comments to this???!? I remember getting a lot of feedback on this thread before and now it seems everyone is avoiding it like the plague!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: I wish people would state whether they used a certain spec and how it drove in normal and race conditions (high speeds). I really only want to visit this issue once if I can help it.:)

Also....I haven't heard input on the lockout plates. I know Novatorious and I aren't the only ones running lower control arm lock outs on this board. I am suprised NOBODY has suggested I turn my plates around since they are obviously in wrong. Shouldn't the bolts be located in the lower/OUTER location not the lower/INNER location??!?!?:confused: :confused:

PLEASE (For the love of God) people...give me some insight here.:D :D :D

Dave:D

Also....I haven't heard input on the lockout plates. I know Novatorious and I aren't the only ones running lower control arm lock outs on this board. I am suprised NOBODY has suggested I turn my plates around since they are obviously in wrong. Shouldn't the bolts be located in the lower/OUTER location not the lower/INNER location??!?!?:confused: :confused:


Part of the problem here is that they are adjustable for a reason: every car is slightly different. The only way you're going to be able to tell what orientation is correct is to install it and measure the alignment. What works on someone else's car may not be right for your car. The plates are designed to fit in a number of different ways so that you can get different adjustments.

The only way to find the right orientation is to set it up and measure.

Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to measure much of anything until you have the engine and transmission in, and it's settled into the right ride height...so...you're going to have to be patient.

You only need to get it sorta close in order to drive it to the alignment shop. You can do that with a protractor, a level, and some string. If you don't want to do that, or it's a long drive to the shop, you could always have it towed there.

If you want to get the alignment closer than that and skip the alignment shop, you're going to need to get some tools, and do the trial-and-error method with the plate orientation...which is what the shop would need to do anyway.

I'm assuming you have installed all new front suspension components? In that case, even after the shop has a shot at it, stuff will settle in a bit over the first 6-12 months or so, and you'll want to get it realigned anyway.

No easy answers here...

Thanks Patman for the response! I really do appreciate it. Yes I have the suspension in and am about to finish up this project.


I guess what I am trying to get at is the following:

I would think that if most people (80%) are running the lock out plates in a particular location (lower outer) that it would be safe to say I have an 80% chance of not having to move them. If I ended up having to move them...no big deal. I was trying to get a feel of where most people have theirs in effort of reducing the amount of times I move these plates because I have no baseline at all. I don't expect my car to be the same as everyones...but I wouldn't be suprised if most people have theirs in the same location and that nobody's simply asked the question.

My other BIG concern is the discrepancy between all the alignment specs. Look for yourself. I would have to say those are some pretty big differences in some of the sources. So what I am hoping to hear from most people is.. what they have theirs set to and whether or not it works for them.

Again, I don't expect every car to be the same but I would think someone could tell me whether or not they have used a neg camber or caster spec and what they prefer their toes set at. Chevy II Only and Global West evidently do not see the significance in running a heavy toe. I wonder why? I thought toe is what keeps these cars straight at high speeds.

I totalled my last chevy II due to bad alignment and I just want to make sure I have a good idea as to what is "SAFE SPECS" before I go have mine set.

I just wish more people commented on this topic....that's all.

Again Patman.. thanks for the response...it's a start. :)

Dave

If you run a neg caster it will cause you to loose feel of the road and the car will want to wander. The more positive caster you run will give you more road feel and make the car feel planted to the road especially at high speed. as far a using a negative camber will not really affect the car alot, could just cause the tires to wear out faster.

I guess then I'm in the 20 percent that does not run the lock-out kit. After much thought, I decided to decline running them with my Global West front end parts as you cannot get exactly what you want, almost like compromising. Mike Goble had mentioned he re-drilled his to get correct alignment specs if I'm not mistaken. So I opted for the "old school" fix, by placing a small tack weld on the bottom of the eccentric, thus locking my aligment in place. Seems to work well. I've never experianced improperly worn tires after eight years and one new front spring swap with this method. Yet another option- that's all! Good luck. dale

I guess then I'm in the 20 percent that does not run the lock-out kit. After much thought, I decided to decline running them with my Global West front end parts as you cannot get exactly what you want, almost like compromising. Mike Goble had mentioned he re-drilled his to get correct alignment specs if I'm not mistaken. So I opted for the "old school" fix, by placing a small tack weld on the bottom of the eccentric, thus locking my aligment in place. Seems to work well. I've never experianced improperly worn tires after eight years and one new front spring swap with this method. Yet another option- that's all! Good luck. dale

Hey Dale. I think you misunderstood my post:) ...

I was referring to the ones that were using the lock out plates probably 80% of them are using the same position/location. I don't know...but I was guessing. If I can get several people to confirm a certain position seems to work well for them, at least I can use that position for a start. I may find they are all different...Who knows??.. when nobody is sharing information regarding their experiences.

Nice to know I can always put the old eccentrics back on and tack weld them if necessary. At the rate this thread is going...that seems like a very likely scenerio.

Thanks,
Dave:D

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/smileys/bump.gifAnyone? http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/smileys/dunno.gif I wish I had access to my original thread where at least people gave some feedback on alignment experiences..http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/smileys/cry.gifhttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/smileys/rolleyes2.gif

When was the other thread posted? The search feature only goes back so far, but you can get to threads back to 2004 by looking here:

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-10.html

There's 6 pages of results, if you remember some word from the thread title, you can do a browser search (ctrl-f or F3) for it on each of the 6 pages. Not as convenient as the regular search, but...lots of good stuff available there.

When was the other thread posted? The search feature only goes back so far, but you can get to threads back to 2004 by looking here:

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-10.html

There's 6 pages of results, if you remember some word from the thread title, you can do a browser search (ctrl-f or F3) for it on each of the 6 pages. Not as convenient as the regular search, but...lots of good stuff available there.I actually found it when I went back to work today after a 2 week vacation. I had printed it a long time ago and still had it up in my cabinets!. :D I guess I am just gonna come up with a conservative spec and go with it. I'm bound to get it close and then I can just tweak it from there.

Happy Birthday Patman.:D :D
Thanks for the input!
Dave

Toe: 0
Camber: Left: 0, Right: 0
Caster: Left: +1, Right: + 1.5


Thanks for digging that up!

Caster looks good. I would probably go with a .5 camber and a little toe (.1-.2).
I would think a little toe would help keep the car planted and center on the road at high speeds. Just a thought to keep in mind when you go to get re-aligned.

I was an another board and got some feedback on this issue.....



I figured I would share this response from another member:

"NEVER run positive camber on any car, especially early GM's as the gain is usually postive when cornering. That said, here is my suggestion based on 15 years as a brake/suspension expert-

CAMBER= -.50 to -.75*
CASTER= +2*, give the right side a little more lead for road crown
TOE= 1/8" total toe in"




Anyone else have any thoughts about alignements on 2nd gens?

I still need to take mine in and get it aligned so I'm still open to suggestions.

Dave:D

Alignment specs are designed for the condition of the car.
Many things alter the "nominal" alignment specs. It is an inter-related system. A trade off between holding the road, wearing the tires and making it easy to drive.

Radial vs Bias ply tires. There weren't radials when the 1st-2nd gens were built. That is why the "factory" specs are not used much today when most tires are radials.

Idler arm upgrade. Going to bearings rather than rubber bushings takes some of the flex out. Toe can be closer to 0 without problems. I went to the solid bar adjusters also. My factory adjusters had bent a little over the years.

Stiffer bushings and boxing in the lower A frame may remove some of the flex in cornering.

Sway bar limiting travel in corners.

Power vs Manual steering. With power steering, less castor is needed.

Tire pressure. On a stock car running big differences in pressure in the left vs right, you must have the racing pressure in when getting the alignment set. It changes settings dramatically.

Do you want to drive normally, hard in the turns? Do you want to feel the road or have the car hold center easily?

That is where a good ALIGNMENT MECHANIC comes in. Many doing alignments just read the book and turn wrenches.

The experienced alignment mechanic I went to said the Chevy II Only spec was what he would do anyway. My 66 drives and corners well. Radials, boxed A-arms, Idler arm upgrade, new poly bushings and Global West strut rod bushings and a 1" sway bar.

Alignment specs are designed for the condition of the car.
Many things alter the "nominal" alignment specs. It is an inter-related system. A trade off between holding the road, wearing the tires and making it easy to drive.

Radial vs Bias ply tires. There weren't radials when the 1st-2nd gens were built. That is why the "factory" specs are not used much today when most tires are radials.

Idler arm upgrade. Going to bearings rather than rubber bushings takes some of the flex out. Toe can be closer to 0 without problems. I went to the solid bar adjusters also. My factory adjusters had bent a little over the years.

Stiffer bushings and boxing in the lower A frame may remove some of the flex in cornering.

Sway bar limiting travel in corners.

Power vs Manual steering. With power steering, less castor is needed.

Tire pressure. On a stock car running big differences in pressure in the left vs right, you must have the racing pressure in when getting the alignment set. It changes settings dramatically.

Do you want to drive normally, hard in the turns? Do you want to feel the road or have the car hold center easily?

That is where a good ALIGNMENT MECHANIC comes in. Many doing alignments just read the book and turn wrenches.

The experienced alignment mechanic I went to said the Chevy II Only spec was what he would do anyway. My 66 drives and corners well. Radials, boxed A-arms, Idler arm upgrade, new poly bushings and Global West strut rod bushings and a 1" sway bar.
Very good points. Many I have never thought about. Thanks for sharing.

Well...I took it to an alignment shop and they set it to:
.4 Camber
1.4 Caster
.30 Toe.

$115 later......

It was waaaaaay off. Not only were the tires kicked in to far on the bottom side from the camber being too positive the toe was feathering the tires bad. I took it home and set the camber almost to 0 (maybe .1) and the toe is set probably somewhere around .2 deg.

Took it on a 50 mile run on the highway and had a slight (drone) vibration still at around 55-60. 60+ it started to smooth back out. 0-55 was smooth also.

The problem still.....
The tires were feathered inward towards the center of the car which tells me it STILL has too much toe. I guess I will set it until it is ALMOST 0 toe (just a hair toe) and see if the wear patterns on the tires straighten out. These Chevy IIs with wide front tires 17X8 do not like toe at all. Especially, if the camber is almost upright.

Anyone like to comment? I just don't understand how I can set it to "specs" and it be way off like this. I guess it will be a trial and error situation until its right.

I would like to know if anyone else has their Camber and Toe almost set to 0. Especially folks who have wide low profile tires up front on these old 2nd gens.


Figured I would share.:beer:

Dave:D

I would like to know if anyone else has their Camber and Toe almost set to 0. Especially folks who have wide low profile tires up front on these old 2nd gens.

Figured I would share.:beer:

Dave:D
I've got camber AND toe-in both set to zero and I'm not seeing any strange wear on my tires after the first 300-400 miles. I'm running 205/60-15 tires, so I don't meet all of your criteria. ;)

I've got camber AND toe-in both set to zero and I'm not seeing any strange wear on my tires after the first 300-400 miles. I'm running 205/60-15 tires, so I don't meet all of your criteria. ;)I'm willing to try it if it works. I start there and move forward slightly.:D :beer:

I don't have much helpful information on this, but started a pretty lengthy thread on this as well a while back, as I rebuilt the entire front end of the 66 with all new parts, but stuck with all rubber stock parts (no lockout, or bearing conversions) and it was all over the road !!! I took it to a Goodyear 3 times and said that it was correct everytime. I posted the specs here and a person or two said that they looked right, but still, the is basically undrivable.

The last time I took it in, they said that maybe it felt so bad was because of (1) my idler arm was warn out (2) the floors have rust in them and couple be allowing the whole body to flex. First off, the idler arm was/is brand new !!!
Now the floor has rust, but I'm not buying that line !!!

Anyway, It's damn shame, I dropped about $1000 bucks in the whole front end (including some brake parts) and since the alignments, I have driven the car about 5 times and the rest of the time, it has sat.

One of these days I plan on replacing the steering box and installing a idler arm bearing kits (I have about 3/4 of a kit... don't ask, I got jacked on an ebay auction !! :mad: ) and taking it to another alignment shop.

-Brent Thomas
Ohio

FWIW...
I run a lock out kit from Global West on my 66. I did a front end rebuild with Dana Chassis (Napa) components 4 years ago. I have 14x6 Wheels w/ P20570R14's all around. I had it aligned a half a dozen times till it felt right. stock settings were totally useless, it drove like crap, wandered bad but was easy to turn. I found that my car (and I) like caster. Caster makes the wheels want to go straight (think of extended forks on choppers). It adds much to high speed stablity but it makes the car not want to turn as well. Personally I think you'll need to try a few different settings till you find one you like. Also, find a very understanding alignment shop. One refused to touch the car cause he didnt want to mess with the camber plates. I'll dig out my specs and post 'em.

I don't have much helpful information on this, but started a pretty lengthy thread on this as well a while back, as I rebuilt the entire front end of the 66 with all new parts, but stuck with all rubber stock parts (no lockout, or bearing conversions) and it was all over the road !!! I took it to a Goodyear 3 times and said that it was correct everytime. I posted the specs here and a person or two said that they looked right, but still, the is basically undrivable.

The last time I took it in, they said that maybe it felt so bad was because of (1) my idler arm was warn out (2) the floors have rust in them and couple be allowing the whole body to flex. First off, the idler arm was/is brand new !!!
Now the floor has rust, but I'm not buying that line !!!

Anyway, It's damn shame, I dropped about $1000 bucks in the whole front end (including some brake parts) and since the alignments, I have driven the car about 5 times and the rest of the time, it has sat.

One of these days I plan on replacing the steering box and installing a idler arm bearing kits (I have about 3/4 of a kit... don't ask, I got jacked on an ebay auction !! :mad: ) and taking it to another alignment shop.

-Brent Thomas
OhioI know exactly what you mean. Believe me. Alignment specs around here have been taboo. I will keep messing with it until I get it right. i do have the idler arm bearing kit and I plan to put the lock out kit back in it if possible (at minimal tack weld the eccentrics).
Once I get it by eye and feel and by tire wear, I plan to take the car in so an alignment shop can check the specs so I can share with the rest of you. I have a feeling 0 toe and camber is gonna put me as close to what I need as possible. We'll see. I won't stop until I get the darn thing right. I have spent way to much money and time to end up with half *** results. Absolutely frustration to the max.

Dave

Funky, With the drum brakes my camber setting was on position 5 (as viewed from the front). This gave me approx .5 deg of camber (with 2 deg of caster) Remember, caster affects camber and camber affects toe so its all inter-related. Now, that being said, with my disc brake setup it appears that 6 will be the new setting as this disc setup needs all the camber adjustment I can give it just to make it driveable. Its a sometimes maddening process.

I got my alignment specs from "Bills II" and everything worked great ...for a while.Turned out my alignment specs were changing and doing the same thing to my tires. A lock out kit from Global West solved the problem.

What specs did Bills II recommend?:)

Aligned my 67 to:

Caster +2*
Camber +1/2*
Toe IN 1/8"

:chev: :D

RED67