Bills II chevette rack and pinion conversion

Why is this not posted at the top of this page so everyone can see this rather than go to the search mode? Bill s II and other members went through a great amount of work to help us have rack and pinion steering for our novas at a very reasonable price.

That would be nice. I'm doing a search for it right now. Grrrr....

-Chris

go to his user profile and click on link of his sig area ;)

or ya can just click here

http://community.webshots.com/album/280387281WjLPhW

And of course, it's in the Link Library, under Conversions and Upgrades, right Johnny? :D

actually, yes it is !!! :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Hey Now to all, "Bill's" II here. Thanks for the Kudos.!!! Also any time you see my "Bill's" II on a thread or post, The link to the conversion will be there. This really is a reasonable way to have rack and pinion steering, that [REALLY WORKS] and use over the counter/wrecking yard parts. It steers like a british sports car, positive and reactive to steering wheel movement. In other words don't move the steering wheel unless you want to turn. Sincerely, "Bill's" II ;)

Has anyone completed this conversion and have the car running? (It sounds like Bill has) Is there any bump steer problems? The reason I ask is because I rounded up all the required parts and am about to do the install when I noticed the pivot points between the L/H and R/H lower control arms measure 22.5 inches while the pivot points on the chevette rack (inside tie rod ends) measure 25.5 inches. I thought those to dimesions were suppose to be equal or as close to equal as possible. It seems 3 inches is a bit much. Can someone out here who has completed this conversion and drove the car respond to my concerns before I go any further?
Thanks Bill/guys.

Ive done it it works great! Did you swap sides on the 74 nova steering arms?.E.G. the left on the right facing forward

If you see it with no weight on and it looks weird [tie rod end angle],see what it looks like with weight on.

Hey Now fastnuf, Bill's II here. Like Carl mentioned did you swap arms to opposite sides? Also did you bend/twist the tie rod attachment point on the steering arms? You can do it without doing this, but I have found it works better and less chance of bump steer. Also the look is the way it should be, horizontal and vertical alignment are square with the car and the earth. Sincerely, "Bill's" II Note that finally got hired on a new job, and sometimes it takes me a while to get to the site and answer questions. Be patient and I will. Also chevynuts88 has done this conversion and also knows how it all goes together. ;)

Thanks for the quick reply guys. Bills2, another quick question for you. I have the 74 steering arms (actually I have 3 sets of them) and was curious why you didn't just use the original steering arms and "flip" them from side to side like you did with the 74 steering arms.

I noticed the pivot points between the L/H and R/H lower control arms measure 22.5 inches while the pivot points on the chevette rack (inside tie rod ends) measure 25.5 inches. I thought those to dimesions were suppose to be equal or as close to equal as possible.
Thanks Bill/guys.

not true in many cases...

I know of this one Pro-E designed front end that has practicaly zero bump steer where the lower a-arm pivots are 19" apart & the rack inner pivots are
21.5"

Mike, Thanks for the reply. I am in the midst of switching to an R&P on my 64 and I am trying to better understand the theory of operation of front-end geometry before I do the swap as opposed to after which could translate into additi0onal costs or worse.

not true in many cases... I know of this one Pro-E designed front end that has practicaly zero bump steer where the lower a-arm pivots are 19" apart & the rack inner pivots are
21.5"

How does that happen? Is it because that particular car has a very narrow range of rebound/jounce? It seems that if the LCA pivot points are not the same or real close to the rack's inner tie rod pivot point, when the suspension travels through it's range (the wider the range the worse it would be), the LCA and tie rod would swing in different arcs causing the spindle to change direction without input from the steering wheel.

Here's another example......a popular F@%& M#!*(#? II front steer rack suspension...
inner lower a-arm pivots 22 1/4 " c/c, rack pivots 24 1/2".

On a front steer rack, the Ackerman angle forces the outer tie rod to be
farther out than the lower ball joint, so the rack pivots will almost allways
wider than the lower a-arm pivots.

If the tie rod & lower a-arm are close to the same lenght, they will move in
about the same arcs,& have about the same rate of change...this will minimize bump steer.

Example....aftermarket front end made in Northern California has a tie rod length of 13.5" & a lower A-arm length of 13 11/16"...with practically zero bumpsteer.

What rack were you looking at ?

Hey Now to all, Bill's II here. "TECH GUY MIKE" Thanks for the help.!!!! Myself and many others on Steve's Site appreciate your Expert Advice and Opinions. !!!:D As to Fastnuf's request the reason's are many on why I did the 69 to 74 Nova steering arms. Alignment and Location of mounting points of the tie rod ends. Also, remember that I used this for stock ride height Chevy II's, however, this works with a One to One an One Half inch drop in ride height. Part of the key is that Rack Centerline and Tie Rod ends are Horizontal with the front suspension ride Height. Sincerely, "Bill's" II

Thanks for the info guys.

Hey Now To all. "Tech Guy" You Da Man.!!!! You can answer questions with the math and technical that I Can't do, and this sticky needs your expertise at times. Now to all other's that read the info that has been assembled by "Bill's II" "Flyer" "Chevynuts88" "Tech Guy" I still have some pictures to post along with text. These are courtesy of Chevynuts88, and how he converted the Chevy II steering column for this undertaking. On mine I used a Cadillac tilt/telescoping column. I will also post pictures on how I did this also. In addition I originally used a power rack, I now have a manual rack, I will post pictures of both. What made me write down and give out all this info? "Flyer" "Tech Guy Mike" are the ones that made this possible. The key was a site that gave Good Honest Answers for Chevy II/Nova owners. Another piece was that every site/book/aftermarket system says it will not work. Something that NO ONE knew until NOW; I first did this conversion in 1979. However, I just last year updated and wrote down how and what I did to make this conversion work and be [SAFE] The piece now for me is completing the Resto/Mods so I can feel the thrill of 450 + Horses thundering down the Street/Strip!!!! :eek: again. Sincerely, "Bill's" II

Did anyone use a bearing to support the steering shaft inside the column where they cut the shaft and column? If so, what was the P/N and where did you procure it from? I didn't notice this information in Bill's write up.

I tried sending the photos and it said they were already on there somewhere. If you want to see them send me your email address or tell me how I can find out where they are on this website.carl

You got mail.
Thanks

Hey Bill's II
Do you know if your conversion will have a problem with full length headers? Also can I still use my moroso rear sump oilpan or would I have to convert back to front sump?
I talked to flaming river today about their new conversion kit for early novas... they said only block hugger headers or exhaust manifolds and front sump pan only.

Thanks for the work on this project
Tg

Hey Bill's 2
I bought the Dodge Neon tie rod ends noted in the conversion. The stud from the Neon tie rod end is alot smaller than the hole in the steering arm it goes into. Does the Citation tie rod end have the correct size stud? The way it sits now, the Neon tie rod end flops around in the 74 steering arms.
Thanks in advance.

Hey Fastnuf, the tie rod ends need to be GM parts. I think the choices were Chevy citation or Caddilac, may have been Cimmiron? You can also keep your rear sump pan with this conversion, and run full length headers. I have mine mocked up, using citation tie-rod ends. They fit tight just like they are supposed to. I will be dragging out my longacre bump-steer gauge to check everything out before I weld the brackets to the crossmember, and weld up the steering. It does not need a Support bearing because you are only using 2 universal joints. The same number of universals the factory uses on most every car and truck. It is my understanding you need the support bearing when using 3 universal joints.

Just a question, has anyone tried fitting non nova headers with this conversion. Removing the stock steering box sure frees up alot of room. Possibly Later nova or even camaro headers will fit.

Thanks to TechGuy Mike, BillsII, The Flyer and everyone else who helped with this conversion...... Kirk

the tie rod ends need to be GM parts. I think the choices were Chevy citation or Caddilac

On Bills 2 web community page, http://community.webshots.com/photo/280387281/450169247jRsECs#Text page 1, it states tie rod ends from a Caddy OR Dodge Neon. Since the Neon's were cheaper I tried them, but they don't fit well at all.


It does not need a Support bearing because you are only using 2 universal joints. The same number of universals the factory uses on most every car and truck. It is my understanding you need the support bearing when using 3 universal joints.


The support bearing I was referring to was the one that goes inside the steering column and supports the shaft. You need that because you cut off it's support when you cut the steering box off of the shaft.

Hey ther Fastnuf and everyone, I think BillsII used a late model column not the early nova column. I am working on a 67 with the stock column and I didn't have to cut the shaft, the steering box is a separate piece on this year. sorry for the confusion. Can you cut the column shaft right by the steering box?

My 66 nova originally had power steering maybe that had something to do with the citation tie rod ends not having enough threads.The 95 neon tierod ends fit perfectly and were made by TRW part #ES3173.No modifications were necessary and threaded on approximately 1 1/2". see photo .

Has anything like this been offered from Aftermarket companies for our First gens? If so how does the performance of this set up compare. AND did I miss a complete A-Z parts lists?

JK:confused:

Hey Now to all, "Bill's" II here. I have sent some additional text to be proof read by two site members. I do have some additional info in the new text. Rick when you check the Bump Ackerman etc. Be sure that you check it at the correct ride height along with correct camber, caster, toe setting it makes a big difference in your readings. The camber caster toe settings are not for stock Chevy II's they are for Radial tire equipped front suspension. Chevynuts88 has the specs he used, his Comment, works Very Good, feels positive and like I have control. Sincerely, "Bill's" II

Check this out. It show what the rack length and position needs to be to not have toe change during suspension travel.

http://www.heidts.com/heisinfo.htm

The info I left above is for Mustang II but it pertains to any IFS with rack and pinion steering.

I went and got the number from the guys I bought the bearing from to support the stock steering column . 00672 P 60840 SFT[shaft]3/4 2 bolt flg[flange],hi vol ball brg mtd.

Has anybody looked into the buying the chevette rack mount from the Fatman Fabrications Kit. It would probably cost a little more but less fabrication. Does anyone else sell this mount ?

Hey Now RGS1260 It might be a thought. But you need to look at the location of the rack, Horizontal, Vertical, and centered between the frame rails. The location I designed and used is the way I know works. I do know that the Fatman system has a problem with full left turn. I don't know what all he used in his design. Now if the mounts he uses locates the Rack & Pinion in the exact location as mine it would work. If the location is changed anywhere it will not work. Respectfully, "Bill's" II

hey bills II,

i'm doing you rack conversion and going over everything and was wondering why you didnt use bushings on the rack and pinion? Wouldnt it help dampen some of the vibrations?

Hey Now kceb10. I know that you could use the original rubber bushings on the rack just like it was on the Chevette. I opted not to use them because it made it easer to shape the original straps to the shape of the rack. When you take the straps and bushings off of the rack, note that the rack housing is NOT Round where the straps and bushings are located, it has a triangular shape. I formed the straps to match the two triangular locations. I used this as an advantage so as not to fabricate additional parts. This prevents the rack from rotating and keeps the alignment for the pinion shaft in the correct position. The next part was the two "U" joints I used to align the steering shaft from firewall to pinion has stopped any vibrations. Note that the shaft between the two "U" joints is a "D" shaft slip shaft, that also helps stop vibrations. I would add a RAG Joint at the pinion if I felt any vibrations that were annoying or uncomfortable. Also note that I did use a Caddy steering column that made connections easy. Let me know any questions that you have, Bill's II (me) or chevynuts88 can and will answer any questions you or anyone has. Sincerely, "Bill's" II :cool:

I noticed that Flaming River offers a bolt in rack & Pinion Kit and also a Quick ratio stock box for 62-66 Novas. Im sure it probably got covette gear in it.
Whick setup would give me easier steering. Not sure if the bolt in rack kit will work with CPP tubular control arm setup . My stock box is out so I can go either way. ???????

bills rack conversion is alot cheaper than either of the flaming river setup i'm doing the conversion right now and only have about 300 into it and that's buying a brand new rack and pinion

well i test fit the crossmember with the rack and pinion installed on it today and everything fit great.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/kceb10/100_0926.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/kceb10/100_0925.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/kceb10/100_0927.jpg

I used a power rack because of avaliblity problems with the manual rack, the power rack was a little more work to get the lines to clear the mount with out them hitting


tomarrow I will take everything back apart and final weld the crossmember and mount, then modify the sway bar mount and remove all the old steering componets.

Getting closer :D :D :D

I mentioned doing this exact rack swap on this site about 1-2 years ago and it caused a major upset with a few members but for the most part,everyone else was curious on how to do it.My first 67 Nova was done this exact way,and that was almost 20 years ago!

Now the subject is a sticky here! Im glad people have relized it can be done and does work for a daily driver or a track car.:D

Hey Now to all. RGS1260 I personally think you would be Happy with either set-up. Nevertheless, for me and many other Nova Nuts on this site money is tight. My conversion does not cost what the other conversions cost. I did mine for less money and it works just as good and in many cases better than any other conversion.!!!!! Also if you ever break a part, its possible to get anything you need at the local parts store. A manual rack is the recommended way to do this conversion, but I originally had the power rack, and converted to manual when I found one. Kceb10, I did the strut conversion on mine also, only just a little different. I know somewhere on the site are pictures and diminsions of how I did my strut rods. Cost for my strut rods: $37.42 and time involved cutting and welding. Jrocket, I understand what you are saying; I had done this conversion several years ago when everyone said it won't work. I just quit telling anybody about what I had done. The hardest part for me was taking pictures after the fact and then writing the text so Nova Nuts could do this conversion. chevynuts88 was the first one on this site that started and finished this conversion. Is he pleased, read some of his comments and view pictures he submitted. As everyone knows many times people have gotten burned on web sites trying to duplicate conversions they have read about or heard about. "SOAPBOX" This site, Steve's Nova Site is the only one that tells the facts. If someone happens to post incorrect information, you have the moderator's and guru's and senior members that post and correct any false information. Two people on this site are the reason I posted and wrote down how to do this conversion. The "FLYER" & "Tech Guy-Mike W." they deserve "KUDO'S" from everyone who has read information on this site. "Steve's Nova Site" Only First Rate Quality facts and information. Sincerely, "Bill's" II

"BillII"
Do you have a parts list and donor cars?

just read the rack conversion link under bill's post's has all the steps detailed and tells all the parts needed to do the conversion

Could someone give me the parts needed to complete this conversion?I've downloaded all the pictures from Bills site but may have overlooked the parts list.Also ,can this be performed with engine and trans in car and will it clear a sbc deep sump moroso pan?

thanks Mike

Hey Now. Yes you can do this conversion with the engine and trans in the car. Yes it will clear any pan except the front sump 6 cylinder pan. Leave the engine and mounts bolted solid to help prevent the frame rails from spreading. All of the parts needed are in the text. Most of the parts listed are identified by year make and model car. Some parts fo have the part # or casting # listed. Sincerely, "Bill's" II :)

I have a rack from a 95 camaro. Will this work with this conversion?

I'm headed to the junkyard this weekend to seek out a manual Chevette rack. My car already has the 2" drop spindles from Superior Spindles, and I'd like to be able to use them for the rack conversion. I'm a bit confused about whether or not the steering arms really need to be cut and re-welded, or heated and twisted, etc.

I understand that you cannot recommend that anyone modify by cutting and welding a steering arm (for liability reasons). However, if someone such as myself wanted to get the best geometry possible from a rack conversion, would a cut and reweld operation be necessary? (wink, wink?)

SteveM.

Hey Now steveM. The steering arms do not need to be cut and welded. Just the heat and twist is all thats needed. When you clamp the steering arms in your vice across the mounting holes you will see the amount of twist needed to align tie rods with rack and steering arm. Another thing is do a trial fit before cutting or bending anything. One key thing you need to check is the horizontal tie rod alignment at ride height. The rack and tie rods need to be level both horizontal and vertical with the cross member and out to the steering arms. Note that you have two (2) inch drop spindles, and I built this for stock height spindles. However if the tie rods align it will work. The trial fit; When you view your car from the front; the steering rack, tie rods should appear level with the rest of your car. This is at RIDE HEIGHT. DO NOT cut and weld the Steering arms. If this is absolutly necessary after your align and road test with only heating and twisting I can let you know how to do it correctly. Respectfully, "Bill's" II Apologies for such a late responce, I have not been on line for over a week. :)

Thanks for the info Bill. I'm looking forward to trying this setup. I struck out at the junkyard, but am still looking for a suitable manual Chevette rack for the conversion.

I got a little confused through the course of reading the entire thread. Some of the early information seemed to indicate that the arms needed to be cut and welded, and then the later information seems to be that they won't need to be cut. Obviously, it's much better and safer if they don't have to be cut and welded.

Has anyone tried this conversion along with the CPP lower control arm setup?

SteveM.

not yet but i would like to also now if it can be done

Will this work with the CPP mini subframe conversion?

Ok, I'm thinking of doing this conversion, but I have a few questions; 1. which tie rod ends will work for sure? part #'s....2. Has anyone found a source for the manual rack? 3. If you use the power rack which pump works?


Thanks to Bills II and others for making this happen....I can't wait to get started..

I used tie rod ends part number TRW part #ES3173, and schucks can order a manual rack and pinion and i think you can also order one from carparts.com. If you are going to use a power rack just use any GM saganaw pump, I talked with my gm field engineer about this and he said all gm pumps are regulated for about 1500psi and will work with the chevette rack and pinion if you decide to use a aftermarket pump make sure it is capable of puting out atleast 1500psi and it should work fine.

i'm using a saganaw pump from a 2003 gmc yukon and it works great

Great, thanks for the info..what do you do for rack mounting brackets (since you don't get those with a reman rack). make them from flat stock?? Anyone got a pic of what the mounting bracket looks like??? I understand you have to modify the stock ones, if you had them.....Chris

Hey Now to all. As for mounting straps, Yes I did modify the originals to fit my idea. Yes you can make your own mounting straps. One (1) inch wide X eighth 1/8th inch thick. Measure and cut to length. I used a MAPP gas torch to shape the straps to fit the shape of the rack with out the rubber bushings. The strap will have like a "V" shape that prevents the rack from twisting or sliding. Also its OK if the strap is thicker, this just makes your strap stronger. As for use with CPP mini sub frame, I don't know. However, IF the lower control arm pivot points are in the same location and the center point both horizontal and vertical for lower ball joint are the same as all first gens, yes this would work. Power steering pumps Yes kecb10 is right, just be sure to get the early model pump so you don't have to change fittings. The Chevettes use a remote fill power steering pump, which makes a nice clean space saving hook up. You could even make use a billit tank and not the plastic original. Chevettes and Pontiac 1000's use the same Rack and Pinion steering. I know that they are still available through Checker-Shucks-Kragen, and Napa. I just don't know the part number's. Tie rod ends 1995 Dodge Neon's, 1979 front drive Caddy's are the correct length. The steering column I used is from a 1979 caddy that is the same length as Chevy II/Nova's (32-33) inches that I trimmed and and shaped the lower sheet metal to fit the original sheet metal and holes on my Chevy II. I just looked at a Flamin River ad. It shows they make a shaft and borgenson joints for steering connection from column to rack. I don't know if its long enough but this would work also, and even with their column. I think it would look good Billit and Chrome on First Gen's, just out of my reach money wise. :chev: Respectfully, "Bill's" II

I got my rebuilt Chevette rack yesterday. It has a funky shaped splined connector for the steering shaft. (Splined, with a flat ground on one side)What kind of U-joint have others used at this location? Will one of the front-drive Saturn U-joints work, or will I need to go aftermarket?

SteveM.

I used a flaming rivers steering u-joint

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLA%2DFR1733DD&N=0&autoview=sku

Hey Now to all. Sorry I have been off line. The joint kceb10 recommends works just fine, no problems. I used the original on my set-up. I just removed the rag joint. Nevertheless, you can use the original rag joint with out taking it apart. Also I have seen the parts available in some ads that has the "U joints borgenson type and shafts sold as a kit. I believe thes would also work. From "U" joint center to "U" joint center is about 22 1/2 inches. Add about 3 inches to the bottom and about 2 inches to the top. This will be the total length of the shaft. About 27 to 28 inches total length. Respectfully, "Bill's" II

Has anyone tried this with a '68 - '74??? I personally don't care for the rear-steer conv. that is offered. I am running a BB and would like to run SB motor mounts but this causes problems with the headers...

I have the same question. I am currently doing a 74 with the BBC with the stock SBC stands. Will the same parts from Bill's kit work? I know there are companys out there that make these kits but I dont want to spend the 1500.00 for them and I also like to do it myself.

Is there anybody that has done this with an f-body rack?