Mobil 1 leaks & ALL oil related questions

I did a search through the site to see if this subject had been touched upon but didn't find anything. You can go to all kinds of sites for this but I trust the people here for info. I have thought for the longest time about switching from regular oil to synthetic but always figure...naaaa... and buy my same old Quaker state. What are some of your thoughts on this, can I just drain the pan and swith over to synthetic? Does it make a world of difference?

Engine wear is supposed to be greatly reduced with a good synthetic oil. Amsoil has had independent testing done on their oil, and they claim to be the best. They have a challenge out to other synthetic oil makers that if their oil proves to be better, Amsoil will pay for the research. One test that they did is to run a big rig filled with synthetic for 400K miles without an oil change. At the end of the 400K miles, the engine was torn down, and the wear measured. The wear was equivilent to an engine running regular oil with regular oil changes. According to the testing done by Amsoil, Mobil1 is the closest in wear protection to Amsoil. It is much more readily available, and it is less expensive. That is what I am running in my pickup. My engine is fairly new, it has about 20K miles on it. Years and miles will tell the story of how good it really is. Until then I rely on the test results I can find that say synthetic is well worthe the extra money. The fact that you can go extended miles with synthetic oil makes it worth it. With regular oil I changed it every 3K miles. With the synthetic I change it every 12K miles, with a filter changes and top-off during that time. The Dodge Viper comes from the factory filled with synthetic oil, as does Polaris ATV's. I believe you will start seeing more and more manufacturers following suit.

Randy (yes, I believe in synthetic oil!) ;)

We've have discussed the subject before but the posts must have been deleted in the last pruning.

I've used synthetic since Mobil 1 first came out. I've also tested oils on the dyno and I'm convinced there is a difference.

However
Synthetic is expensive.
Fuel economy benefits won't offset the cost.
I don't agree with claims of extended oil change intervals. Oil doesn't wear out, it gets dirty with contamination. Solubles are solubles.
Power gains are there but they are very small about 1% or less
Loose, worn and leaky engines will pass more synthetic oil. Don't waste your money if your engine is on it's last legs.
Some engines are actually designed to run synthetic and have tighter clearances. It's counter productive to use dinosaur oil in these engines.


I've found on my SBC engined cars that using full synthetic only in the winter months is the most cost effective method. Synthetics have a wide tmeperature capabilties. Synthetic's excels in it's cold performance. Engine wear is the greatest on cold startup. In sub zero weather regular oil flows like molasses.

Synthetics are resistant to high temperature breakdown but if you engine oil is getting that hot you have a serious cooling problem.
It doesn't get real hot in Michigan and my engine oil stays around 220 so I switch to cheaper oil the rest of the year and keep to 3,000 mile oil and filter changes.

Regular oil changes extend the life of your engine but won't prevent rebuilds.
Gaskets get old and seals get hard. Valve guides will wear out eventually and even sooner if you have really good seals (they need some oil to stay lubricated)

Synthetics will do a great job of cleaning the inside of your engine. This can be good and bad.

The down side is if you have been running dino oil for many miles, eventhought the engine may still be tight as a drum, there could be areas where gaskets/seals have developed a bit of a buildup and actually kept the gasket from leaking.

By putting synthetic in it will dissolve the bit of build up and leaks may develope. New type gaskets, like the 1 piece oil pan gaskets/ printo seal intake gaskets are a great thing to use because they seal better and are less likley to leak with synthetic.

Synthetics will do a great job of cleaning the inside of your engine.
Hmmm, I guess that explains why my neighbors Ford F350 diesel pickup that he uses to pull his backhoe tractor to jobsites still had amber colored oil after 6000 miles on an oil change, and 200K total miles on the truck. He has run synthetic in it since break-in. How often do you see amber colored oil in a diesel engine??

Randy (very rarely)

i totally believe in synthetics. ive run synth in the motor ,tranny and rear.
on our work trucks we have the allison transmission, they will warrenty the tranny for a lifetime if you switch it over to sythetic within the first 500 miles.
so it says something.

I found this old post in my files:

I've been involved with and have tested synthetics since Mobil One first came out. I even still have an original metal can of Mobil One.

Anyway,
Synthetics are often misunderstood when compared to dinosaur oil.

First ones were tested by the same viscosity standards as conventional oils. Viscosity used to be tested by pouring a set quantity through a fixed orifice (Brix cup) and timing how long it takes to go through. Sort of like sand through an hourglass. Because the molecules flow easily, the time to pass through was less and they got a lower viscosity rating.
Old timers who thought heavier is better, decided the lower viscosity was a bad thing and shunned the expensive and runny Mobil One.

Mobil had to add thickeners to get the public to accept it.

Things have changed since then. Nowadays, you can get 0-20w oil and some manufacturers use it as an OEM spec.

Synthetics aren't new (Nazi's worked on synthetic fuel and oil technology during WWII), but it's taken a while for the general public to fully accept them.

Tips:
1. Choose a fully synthetic oil. I'm currently testing Pennzoil synthetic with Penzane. It's a substance developed for NASA for cold/hot extremes of space. Initial results look good.

2. Put aside pre-conceived notions of viscosity = protection. Heavy weight oil takes more power to pump. In sub-zero temps you can easily spin a bearing in it's bore with 50w.

3. Choose pump spring and clearances appropriately. Tighter clearances preferrable. Loose clearances need thicker oil to slow down internal bleeding.

4. Change oil/filter at same interval. Cost is higher for synthetics so don't bother using with a leaker or oil burner.

5. Synthetics are no contest winner in sub zero climates. 90% of engine wear is on cold start-up.
Leave a qt of regular oil outside (winter) or in the freezer over night and try to pour out. Now think about the pump trying to move that taffy to the bearings.

---Paul W.
Comments:
1. The best products are often more expensive BUT being most expensive does not guarantee it's the best product.

2. All major oil companies make synthetic oil. Look for "100% synthetic" on the label. A blended oil is cheaper and maybe a good way to try them out. If your engine doesn't like it then no point in going to full synth.

3. NO oil will fix a worn engine. If your engine is worn you probably should stick to cheaper conventional oil.

4. Synthetics are soluble in and compatible with conventional oil. You can use synthetics only in the winter and conventional in the summer if you want.

5. Synthetics can tolerate higher temperatures without coking. Excellent in turbocharged applications that have a pressure fed oil line to the turbo. Summertime ambient temperatures of 100+ degrees are still colder then engine coolant temperatures. If your oil temperatures are exceeding 240-250 degrees, then an oil cooler is a good idea.

6. I design my engines to work with synthetics. I select clearances, pressure spring, and oil pump to maximize benefit.

7. Even with all that the gains will be small. I've seen maybe up to a 6 hp gain on a 600 hp race engine, but realistically the street gains should be measured in Watts. Benefits include lower oil temps from reduced friction, easier cranking when cold, higher manifold vacuum, slightly better fuel economy (.5 to .7 mpg) and improved torque.

8. It's not nitrous. Don't expect a miracle.

9. Try the Pennzoil 10w-30 100% synthetic with "Pennzane". Subjectivly it seems better to me so far than the Valvoline or Mobil One. I could be just imagining the better driveability so I'd like second opinion.

---Paul W.

I have no advice or anything on this subject, it sounds like these are questions regarding street vehicles. All I ask is if you are drag racing your car please don't run synthetic, it doesn't clean up well off of the track surface at all if you blow up. We had 2-3 races cancelled completely after synthetic oil spills that they were un able to clean up.

the motor is together, i get my steering box on tomorrow, and then i can start putting the engine/tranny back in the car. and now for a few final questions:

what weight oil should be used for break-in?
what weight oil is best for those crucial first miles?
what weight oil should i use for racing?

this may seem like a dumb question, but is there anything special about these race oils, like the castrol high rpm synthetic stuff or the valvoline race oil? are there any special steps for switching from regular to synthetic oil?

amos

I'd use a decent quality regualr 10-30 weight oil for break-in. For regular street and race use I run Mobil 1 synthetic. The LT1 guys swear by it. GM supplied it in the LT1 and LT4 Vettes. IMO, this stuff works. I'd say it can be worth 1-3 hundredths in the quarter.

i personaly run kendall gt1 for all of it in 20w 50 seems to work just fine and is much cheaper than the synthetic stuff

IMO, i would use the cheapest oil for break-in (CHEVRON 10-30). i wouldnt use synthetic right away, i would put a good amount of miles on the motor before i use synthetic, i dont think synthetic or anything thick will allow for proper break-in. but after that, MOBIL 1 is good, and KENDALL. just my 2 cents.

JOHN

hey SUPERNOVA, do u have any oil pressure problems after 4kRPM, my motor after 4k drops 40psi, and @ 3k its @ 65psi. i started an oiling problem thread, check it out. i askin u this cause we almost have the same motor setup. are u running oil restrictors?????

nope no oiling problems its stays right at 50 after warm and yes i have oil restrictors on it, also took the bypass spring out of the oilfilter adapter and put a plug in it.

i agree with not using synthetic oil for the break in. when i rebuilt my motor they used vavoline 30W Racing oil for the break in and the same to use for racing. i dont run mine in cold weather so it's all i use.

I just read this (http://www.royalpurple.com/hotrod2/hr2p3.html) article on Royal Purples web site. It's some mods they made to a 383 crate engine. Here is a direct quote:

We were so close to 500 lb-ft that we decided to pull out the magic wand: synthetic oil. It's generally worth a few power numbers, so we drained the 10W30 dinosaur sauce and poured in Royal Purple's 5W30 street oil (lighter-weight racing oil is also available). It took three dyno pulls for the synthetic to do its thing, then it made the repeatable power we wanted: 502.9 lb-ft and 463 hp. As an average from 2,500 to 5,800 rpm, the Royal Purple bought us 7 hp and 10 lb-ft. Combined with the extra engine protection and heat resistance, this is a no-brainer.

Of course Royal Purple wouldn't use that article if it didn't make them look favorable. But my question is, do you gain this HP/TQ at the expense of lubrication properties or any other drawbacks? Anyone have any experience with it? At $4.99 it's expensive, but not really out of reach.

Any thoughts?

Horsepower tv tested a late model camaro with stock fluid and then with royal purple oil, at fluid, diff fluid, and cooling additive and gained 10 hp at the rear wheels. I will try it for the cost difference for sure.

Hey 72 I haven't used the Royal purple brand but switched to Mobil 1 synthetic around 5 years ago.I use it it every thing I own right down to my lawn mowers.Never had an engine failure yet and plan to continue to use it!Not really sure if it helps but a lot of new things come with it from the factory.My Polaris 4 wheeler uses 0-40.IMO its a good thing.

Don't know if it was Royal Purple or Luck but I am still running the same exact rotating assembly all summer, in July I sheared a converter bolt an it hit the oil filter with a 1/8 in hole on a 10.2 130mph pass, drove all the way to the pit area before losing oil pressure completly, in August I was spraying er hard an broke the 2nd main web from the cam to the outer main bolts on both sides, the piece of block came out with a tap from a hammer. Same crank, rods, n pistons are still in a Dart block, bearings were like new but replaced anyways when we put everything in the lil M block. Just ran mid 9's@142mph a week ago with it, prolly luck huh.

I run synthetic (mobile 1) in everything and have no problems at all,So i would'nt say you sacrifice anything at all.I noticed a reduction in temperature in my 406 engine.That is proof enough for me!!

I installed a new Felpro one piece oil pan gasket on a 327 as per instructions and suddenly I have leaks in the front and rear main seal after using Mobil 1. Took it down,cleaned everything up,used RTV sealer in the 4 corners,let it dry overnight and put the oil back in it. Leaks again. Drained it again,I was told synthetics are known to do this. Now I'm using 10/40 Valvoline oil.....no leaks,perfectly dry..what is the problem? Am I doing something wrong?

I installed a new Felpro one piece oil pan gasket on a 327 as per instructions and suddenly I have leaks in the front and rear main seal after using Mobil 1. Took it down,cleaned everything up,used RTV sealer in the 4 corners,let it dry overnight and put the oil back in it. Leaks again. Drained it again,I was told synthetics are known to do this. Now I'm using 10/40 Valvoline oil.....no leaks,perfectly dry..what is the problem? Am I doing something wrong?

Hello Neighbor!

I have experienced this and my leaks stopped after I switched back to regular petroleum oil too.

Regards, Jody

I just changed oil in my 94 dodge dakota sat. I put mobil 1 in for the first time. Before this I always used 10 w 30 castrol. Today (tues) I have no oil leaks but now I do hear a lifter ticking. This truck has a 5.2 V-8 (318) with only 47.750 miles on it. I'am going to run it for a couple of weeks and see if it quits. If the lifter does not quiet down, back to 10w30 castrol I go.

they work the best but always manage to find an exit. :(

Its due to the low viscosity of the mobil 1 compaired to the dino oil. If you have any potential leaks at all present in your motor synthetic oils will find them and leak....just the nature of the beast. Fix the leaks if you want to run the synthetic. If you dont want to fix the leaks then learn to live with them if you want to stay with synthetic oil. Or the easiest option of them all just go back to dino oil and the leaks will likely stop on their own. :)

Never heard this one before. Plus I have the one peice oil gasket too! I hate damn oil leaks....drives me nuts! :mad: Guess I will avoid synthetics with my new motor. :D

Syntetics are made up of smaller molecules, therefore leak easier.

I never recommend running synthetics on engine with more than 30K miles, for this exact problem. You put oil in an older engine and you are going to have leaks. In some cases you will find this to be true on a new engine. When the engine is shut off and there is no pressure at the rear main, the seal relaxes and you get a few drops of oil leaking out. I have also seen cases where the oil leaks out the oil pan end gaskets when the vehicle is parked on an incline for several days. If you have a two piece rear main you will have a higher risk of leaks. If you are running a newer small block with a 1 piece rear main you have a better chance of sealing properly.

Maybe I'm lucky but I've not had this problem. I use synthetic in all my new cars. My wifes 2002 Voyager got it about 20K miles. My old 2003 Vibe got it around 10K miles and my 2004 Tiburon got it at 5K miles. Not a drop from the 3 ever. The Nova leaks with regular stuff so I haven't switched yet. The only reason the Nova leaks is because of the cheap chrome oil pan and timing cover. The stupidity of youth.

If my Nova ain't leaking something, I start getting worried :rolleyes: :D

Gosh I thought it was just me lol - Im running mobil1 and mine leaks like a civ as well.. I had to redo the rear main seal once already, and the motor is about a year old with maybe 5k miles on it, and about 20 passes. With a new rear main, and new pan seals it still leaks, but I have no plans of switching back to dino oil.

If my Nova ain't leaking something, I start getting worried :rolleyes: :D
Are you sure your not talking about a Ford? You can take a picture of a Ford, Hang it on the wall and still need a drip pan to catch the oil that leaks from the picture.

Are you sure your not talking about a Ford? You can take a picture of a Ford, Hang it on the wall and still need a drip pan to catch the oil that leaks from the picture.

Nope, our Ford doesn't leak anything. It hauls my Chevy to the track ;)

Everytime my car stops leaking, I know its empty.

Nope, our Ford doesn't leak anything. It hauls my Chevy to the track ;)

I should probably apologize. I enjoyed that entirely too much. Bad Mark! Bad! :D

Everytime my car stops leaking, I know its empty.

I owned a Monte Carlo that leaked oil really bad years ago. I used to joke that if I went to a full service station, I'd have to tell them to "fill it up with oil and check the gas."

Here's what Mobil 1 says:

Mobil 1 Synthetic myths (http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx)

Are you sure your not talking about a Ford? You can take a picture of a Ford, Hang it on the wall and still need a drip pan to catch the oil that leaks from the picture.

Now, that made me laugh!

Now, that made me laugh!

Why don't the English make computers?
They can't figure out how to make them leak oil!

Harleys don't leak oil they are just marking their territory!

Radial aircraft engines don't leak oil, they are "externally lubricated"!

How do you know when a (insert car brand here) needs oil?
When it stops leaking!

A man walks into a Ford service department with a chimpanzee...

In the early days of synthetics, there would be leaks. Some companies forgot the "seal softening" additive that was in the dino oil. Seals would harden and there would be some leaks.

It should not be a problem in todays synthetics.

Thanks for all the help guys!...........things are nice n dry at this time,gonna keep it that way!

In the early days of synthetics, there would be leaks. Some companies forgot the "seal softening" additive that was in the dino oil. Seals would harden and there would be some leaks.



Sounds like an internet myth. Prove it.

Sounds like an internet myth. Prove it.

Sounds like Myth Busters! :)

I'm running Mobile 1 in my 98 Lumina, 96 Civic and 99 Elantra. I started them at 20K, 40K and 60K. No leaks.

I'm not yet ready to try it in my Nova yet until I get about 5-10K miles on it. I want to be sure the seals are good.
Rod

This ought to stir something up. Years ago, my dad brought a small used Kuboto tractor (diesel) for use around the house. It didn't take long to see that the engine was smoking and it was both burning and leaking oil. A salesman from an oil company suggested that my dad change to synthetic oil. He said it would work it's way into the the piston ring grooves and stop the smoking. After checking the price and availability of a rebuild kit, my dad decided to try it. He changed the oil and went out to cut off the field next to the house. Within two hours, the engine had stopped smoking(yes, it was still running). The big surprise was when the external oil leaks stopped leaking. The salesman said this was due to the seal softners. My dad has been sold on synthetics ever since. I run synthetic oil in both my cars and have had no ill results.
That said, Reed Cams puts a disclaimer with every flat tappet cam they sale stating that they will fail if synthetic oil is used. One of my friends was their top cam grinder and he says synthetics only work with roller cams. (My Nova is running a roller hydraulic cam.)
I have had a bad experience with synthetic gear oil in a posi differential. I have talked to a lot of mechanics that do not like synthetic gear oil.

I think the synthetic oil leak "thing" is a myth. I put 5w-20 Mobil 1 in my 2001 Honda at 10,000 miles now have 55,000 on it. No leaks. I put 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my 1996 F--d Contour at 20,000. Now have 95,000. No leaks. I put 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my 350 nova at 10,000. Now have 25,000 No leaks. I am conviced it is a myth. :)

I think the synthetic oil leak "thing" is a myth. I put 5w-20 Mobil 1 in my 2001 Honda at 10,000 miles now have 55,000 on it. No leaks. I put 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my 1996 F--d Contour at 20,000. Now have 95,000. No leaks. I put 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my 350 nova at 10,000. Now have 25,000 No leaks. I am conviced it is a myth. :)


Question...are the 5w and 10w weight synthetics the same as far as viscosity is concerned as a compairable 5w or 10w dino oil?

Viscosity used to be measured by pouring oil through an orifice and timing how long it took for the oil to flow through. It's called a brix cup. Same method is used for mixing paint and even soda fountain syrup.
Synthetic molecules flowed more quickly so they got rated at a lower viscosity. Because of this thickeners were added to bring the viscosity back up. I am pretty sure viscosity is determined by a different method now but I have not evidence to show. I will look into it.
In any event oil thickness is not a measure of protection.... meaning thicker oil does not protect better than "thin" oil.
In fact using too thick of a viscosity can be damaging. Before I learned about oil I used to think thick oil was necessary for high performance engines.
When I was in my early 20's I always used 50 weight in my V-8 Vega. It spun a bearing after one cold morning startup with that molasses. On tear down the lubricated surfaces were in bad shape. I found out later that 90% of wear is at start up. Heavy oils don't flow or pump well when cold.
Most street strip cars with proper clearances don't need super heavy weight oil.
Endurance racers that have to use 50 weight in extreme conditions use sump heaters and warm up the oil before startup.

I've was skeptical of synthetics when they first came out. I still have a metal can of Mobil 1 from the early seventies. I've tested and used them on many vehicles and participated in extensive dyno testing since then. I'm a believer now but the high cost is still a problem.
Synthetics vary in compositon so you can't make categorical statements. While the results are proven, few, if any myths are true.

In any event oil thickness is not a measure of protection.... meaning thicker oil does not protect better than "thin" oil.

I understand that fully...I was just wondering if the weights were the same to point out to the one poster that possibly his cars didnt leak when he switched to synthetic because the weight of the synthetic oil he is now using was likely the same weight as the dino oil he used before..So if they weren't leaking before the change they shouldn't leak after the change.

BUT if he replaced his old dino stuff with 0 weight synthetic that might be a different story. He "might" have gotten a leak as the much thinner ZERO weight synthetic can leak out of spots the 5 or 10 weight synthetic/dino oil cannot. Just an observation :)


BTW I am not saying that if you switch to synthetic your car will leak....I just think that if your vehicle has any potential leaks...the low weight synthetic oils will find it... ;)

The arguement that synthetics flow past seals easier seems valid but it can't be the viscosity. If it's tested to a certain SAE viscosity it's the same viscosity as dino oil.

Here's an interesting test of Mobil 1. I think they are also testing Amsoil too.
Mobil1 test (http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html)

The arguement that synthetics flow past seals easier seems valid but it can't be the viscosity. If it's tested to a certain SAE viscosity it's the same viscosity as dino oil. Valvoline says (http://www.valvoline.com/synpower/articleviewer.asp?pg=ccr20011002sb) that the molecules in synthetics are engineered to consistant size and structure, while dino oils are a hodge podge of naturally occuring molecules of different configurtions.
(see pix)

Here's a PDF of a simple school experiment (http://www.aacog.com/air/curriculum/HotAndColdRunningOil.pdf) to test viscosity.

Here's an interesting oil life test of Mobil 1. I think they are also testing Amsoil too.
Mobil1 test (http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html)

Here's a web page by a self proclaimed oil expert (oilexpert@aol.com)

Oil change myths and facts (http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm)
I haven't read the whole page but some of his statements about synthetics seem to be counterdicted by the above oil life study.

Here's a Car Craft online article on synthetics (http://carcraft.com/techarticles/15378/).

The Nazi's started making synthetic oil in world War Two because of supply problems. Later, as science advanced it became apparent that natural oil could not just replaced but improved as well. I think that once you realize that synthetics are just engineered oil molecules then you get a better understanding of what it is.

Notice the molecules basically look the same but one of the bonds is weaker in the dino example. The synthetic molecule is more consistent in size and structure. An analogy would be two bins of ball bearings of consistant size and one with varying sizes and some were irregular and broken.
Pour one them through a funnel and you'd see the even balls flowed through better than the odd ball bearings.
This may be the reason for the anecdotal stories that synthetics leak but I haven't noticed that difference. There may be other explanations such as changing the oil flushed out sludge that kept already bad seals from leaking worse.

If my Nova ain't leaking something, I start getting worried :rolleyes: :D

Yeah really! :) Fix one leak and and another one starts.

The arguement that synthetics flow past seals easier seems valid but it can't be the viscosity. If it's tested to a certain SAE viscosity it's the same viscosity as dino oil.

Here's an interesting oil life test of Mobil 1. I think they are also testing Amsoil too.
Mobil1 test (http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html)

Here's a web page by a self proclaime oil expert (oilexpert@aol.com)

Oil change myths and facts (http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm)
I haven't read the whole page but some of his statements about synthetics seem to be conterdicted by the above oil life study.


Just wondering if they make a zero weight dino oil like they do with the synthetics? I havent seen one but that doesnt mean they dont make it. :)

Just wondering if they make a zero weight dino oil like they do with the synthetics? I havent seen one but that doesnt mean they dont make it. :)

I think that's called WD-40.

I think that's called WD-40.


lol....I knew there was another use for that stuff. :rolleyes: ....lol....I was just thinking that the synthetics that might be a little more appt to leak past the seals might just be the zero weight stuff....I dunno..I have no proof but it sorta seems logical..a zero weight lubricant is very thin. Much thinner than what the cars normally run... :)

Does anyone know a company that makes straight 30 weight oil in synthetic?
I've looked and can't find any locally.
Thanks.

Royal Purple and AMSOIL

hi my friend and I were fighting over that you have to change the oil he has which his phlosphy is that you don't pay more than a months salary a 1995 3.0 windstar f*rd and he never changes a thing it barrley leaks oil so you know its not running thru he has had this vehicle for 2 years and his vechle before this he had for 5 years. I on the other hand believe you must change it atleast betwen 5,000 and 20,000:D

Have you ever seen oil that hasnt been changed overtime it tends to thin out and turn to almost a water cosistency. I would think that this wouldnt be good and the oil really wouldnt be doing its job as well. But thats just from my observations.

all I will say is "I pitty the fool":D (in my best Mr T imitation) that get his vehicles after him as they will IMO pay the price for his lack of routine maintenance..

just wait until the filter clogs, hope it has a bypass. I feel sorry for the next guy that buys it.

My current beater had many miles on the oil when i got it. The plug was cross-threaded. It has taken quite a few oil changes to clean things out. There is no excuse for not changing your oil. Even my wife knows better than that.

Oil thins after an extended period of time? Is that after becoming thicker than syrup?

After time I was pretty sure oil thickens due to the natural breaking down of the fluid and the picking up of debris like metal shavings, dirt and what not which can do major damage to your vehicle if left in for extended periods of time.

Maybe your friend has figured it out though...five years is a long time. You did say it 'barely' leaks right? Define 'barely'.

Other than the obvious issues with not changing your oil such as dirt, clogged filters, loss of additives, etc one of the main concerns is that over time oil become more acidic as more combusion gases get absorbed by the oil. My understanding is that this increase in acidity actually causes damage to the bearings (they get eating away)...this is not a good way to save money...

Maybe your friend gets rid of the vehicles before he himself pays a price for his lack of maintenance BUT guaranteed the people that buy the vehicles after him pay for it.

"Fram" said it best...

"you can pay a little now... or a lot later"

what drives me nutz it he says " the money you spend repairing and doing matience on a vechle you can buy a new to you vechle". he also has a 1985 gmc 3/4 ton that has not had the oil changed since 1985 :eek: well I figured he must get some good deals because he is only a school teachers and they don't get paid much in canada

and also this is 10w30 oil not the greatest so nothing has been changed not even the air cleaner once he stalled on the highway and had to be towed to a town and the mechanics shop said the air filter was so pluged up you coulden't even blow thru it with a air gun!

How does he do on gas?

A few years ago one of our customers had his 500 Pro Stock syle engine
on Richard Maskin's dyno..they told him to put fresh oil in it between pulls.
just plain, same weight, non synthetic......picked up 14 HP, no other changes.

My daily driver gets synthetic oil and is changed every 3000-5000 miles. which makes for 3 to 4 changes a year. Some say it's overkill. I drop about 500 dollars a year into the 1999 trucks maintenance. The truck has 105,000 miles on it and still goes good (knock on wood). I plan the the truck lasting me at least to 200,000 miles and if it still runs good I might take it to 300,000. Now my wifes 1998 blazer gets it's oil changed every 6 months with 10W30, but at six months she is lucky to rack up 2000 miles. I think she is some where around 30,000 miles on the clock so it should last for a long time.

I've got a few anecdotes to add to the pile.
I was working in a dealer back in 1978 and a lease car got turned in. I was assigned to look it over and change the oil before it went to the used car department. The car looked good inside and out, only had 30,000 miles on it.

When I took the drain plug out, nothing came out. Hmmm, the oil light hadn't come on, it couldn't be out of oil, could it? The car had no leaks and the engine was clean as a whistle.
Usually, you'll always at least get some little drips but there was nothing coming out. I took a scribe and poked the hole. It came out black and yucky like tar.
Then blobs started to ooze. Long story short the whole engine was clogged with an oily jelly. The accountant who leased the car didn't EVER change the oil. We had to put in a new engine it was so bad. An unscroupulous shop might have run mineral spirts through, put in new oil and filter and sold it as:
"Low Miles, No rust, Clean!" An unsuspecting buyer would have been screwed later down the road.

A porter at the Chevy dealership had a 72 Corvette that was his "baby". he changed the oil every 2,000 miles. After about 60,000 miles the gaskets and seals leaked a little bit, He hated leaks so he asked me help rebuilding the engine. Long story short the engine was spotless and even the original cross hatch was there. Bore was perfect. Just needed gaskets and seals.


Both of these examples are extremes. The point is Changing your oil often won't stop gaskets and seals from going bad but that's better then potential problems form not changing your oil at all.

If you plan on keeping your engine for a long time then every 3,000 miles is a good rule of thumb. If you are trying to find the balance between reasonable cost vs reasonable life every 4,500 miles is ok.

See other thread on cold engine wear (http://stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28912).

Using synthetic only in the coldest winter months (Dec, Jan, Feb...+March in Michigan), will dramatically reduce engine wear at a reasonable cost tradeoff.

I worked at Jiffy Lube and we changed the oil in an old Monte Carlo that was so bad that the oil wouldn't come out. We had to run a wire into the pan to get oil flow to come out. I also worked at a tune up shop and the owner bought a 80 Blazer that the engine blew up because the original owner never checked the oil in 30K of driving. A young 18 year old got a good paying job bought a boat and a Blazer and only used the Blazer to pull the boat. It took about 6 years and 30,000 miles to run out of oil.

Actually you get oil thinning from fuel dilution that gets past the valves. Fuel dilution occurs mostly on cold start ups.

Since this is kind of on topic, does anyone know what those things are called where like...its like a canister that you fill with oil and there's a tube between the canister and the engine that gets pressurized as the engine's running. Then on cold startups you flip a switch/lever and the pressurized oil shoots into the engine so it's lubed up. I remember seeing that on Horsepower TV and I thought it was a really nifty "gadget."

Anyone know what I'm talkin about?

Matt

It's called an
"Accusump" (http://www.accusump.com/)

I read this and had to laugh...Whats in the water up there in Canada?:)

No water this time of year....only ice for the rum:D

I read this and had to laugh...Whats in the water up there in Canada?:)

Well I did just read a news story that said that alcohol consuption in Canada is up 13% since 1997...But I dont suspect that has anything to do with this...lol:D

But seriously I have ran into a few people with this idea over the years....I even ran into one guy that believed all you had to do was change the filter and top the oil off.....at least his filter wouldnt likely get plugged...lol....and with every 5th filter change he would have (1 quart at a time) changed all the oil in the motor:rolleyes: (ya thats it...lol):D

Heck I even saw a guy that used a roll of toilet paper as the oil filter for his car. He had a screw on canister that he would take off, take out the old dirty roll of toilet paper, and then put a new roll in and put in back on the truck...he swore by it...

People are funny:confused: :)

Like this?

http://www.pre-luber.com/trailerlifeart.htm

...
Heck I even saw a guy that used a roll of toilet paper as the oil filter for his car. He had a screw on canister that he would take off, take out the old dirty roll of toilet paper, and then put a new roll in and put in back on the truck...he swore by it...

People are funny:confused: :)

That reminds me of another dealership I worked at. A guy brought in a truck for engine knock under the soon to expire warranty (truck had slightly less than 36,000 miles on it). He claimed he changed the oil every 3,000 miles but on inspection we found he used a toliet paper filter... presumably to save the $4 for a real filter.
The oil was real dirty so I'm thinking he just changed the toliet roll and added a quart every 3,000.

The service manager wanted to deny the claim. The truck sat for a while because the customer refused to pay for a new engine (thousands). He made a big stink about it so the zone rep finally got involved and agreed to pay half of the bill. That small savings on an oil filter cost him so much grief I can't see how you could possibly justify it.

I agree that a lot of people are cheap and/or stupid about engine maintenance. Engine wear is inevitable but it happens sooner on poorly maintained engines.

The saga of the toliet filter, didn't end with a new engine. The customer having to pay half the bill and still being cheap didn't want to pay for a new shortblock.
The service manager, who was remarkably unethical, even for a dealership, had the engine "re-built" at a local lowest bidder dirtballmachine shop.
The mechanic that installed the engine was famous for corner cutting and consitantly beat the flat rate. He was in the engine bay with his dirty boots on standing on the block while putting heads on with an impact. torque wrench would take too long I guess.

Well, when they finally fired up the "re-built" engine it sounded like a very loud diesel. Long story short, they pull the heads and it turns out the pistons had witness marks from smacking the heads.
When the machine shop line bored and decked the engine they moved the center line of the crank higher and the deck low enough that the pistons actually hit the heads!

OK, I'm thinking they should quit while they are behind and just get a new short block, but it aint over yet.... the service manager tells Mr Flat Rate to go to the body shop and get a 6" grinder. He tells him to grind the tops of the piston flush with the block. Chips are going everywhere. They blow it off and impact the heads on. Engine is running again in about 4 hours.

The guy picks up his truck thinking he outsmarted the dealership and in spite of his oil filter mistake, got a new engine. I doubt he got many miles out of it, but we never heard from him again because he only had a few hundred miles left on his warranty. I'm sure it blew shortly after it went past 36,001 miles.

btw, This kind of screw job was common at that dealer. I hated it so much, I decided I'd never work as flat rate mechanic again. I quit the dealership and went on to more rewarding work. It eventually went out of business. I'm sure the service manager went somewhere else to practice his brand of customer service.

Anyway the bottom line to this lesson is skimping on oil and filter changes or even engine rebuilds is not smart and it doesn't save money.

Man that is a funny story..:D ...lol...glad it wasnt my car...I'm hard enough on them as it is I dont need any "help":rolleyes: :)

That dealership sounds like (edit) Ford in Plymouth Michigan.

It was a Chevy dealer. We can't mention the names. It's out of business but rules don't allow slamming.

Heck I even saw a guy that used a roll of toilet paper as the oil filter for his car. He had a screw on canister that he would take off, take out the old dirty roll of toilet paper, and then put a new roll in and put in back on the truck...he swore by it...

I remember seeing those for sale when I was a young man. Even then, I laughed.:D


Dan (that's right! I was a young man once):)

Thanks Paul and Mark. I'll have to add that to my to-do list now that I know where to get one. :)

Matt

In the 60's the mileage on a "don't change, just add oil", car was about 40-50,000 before it would clog or give up. Sludge in the engine filled every inch except for a few streams the oil used as a return. Wear was usually so deep there was no hope of rebuild.

Cars have gotten much better. Recently some aquaintances with this no change phylosiphy made it to the 70,000 range before the engine quit.

I am amazed at how many people without any engineering or chemistry knowledge continually second guess the engineers that design and test the cars. When friends ask what they need to know about a car I tell em, "read the owners manual. If you do that you will know more than 90% of the people on the road".

These stories are hilarious.

A few months ago I had a customer with a rod sticking out of her oil pan. It was an 03 Liberty with a 3.7 V6 with 42,000. When we took the valve cover off the oil had turned into a wax like substance all over the rockers and everything. You know the story... imagine that stuff in the lifters, galley ways, etc. She had an oil change with us 200 miles previous, and I warned her about doing oil changes more regularly, because this was her first oil change since 12,000 miles. She must have told me ten times that she doesn't understand why an engine with such little miles would have an engine problem. She didn't get it. Kept telling me "but I added oil every few months".

Cost her a $5,000 bill instead of $20 oil changes.

I don't understand people sometimes.

what drives me nutz it he says " the money you spend repairing and doing matience on a vechle you can buy a new to you vechle". he also has a 1985 gmc 3/4 ton that has not had the oil changed since 1985 :eek: well I figured he must get some good deals because he is only a school teachers and they don't get paid much in canada

and also this is 10w30 oil not the greatest so nothing has been changed not even the air cleaner once he stalled on the highway and had to be towed to a town and the mechanics shop said the air filter was so pluged up you coulden't even blow thru it with a air gun!
wow. ..................

I was at the auto parts store one day when a guy came in to get oil. The car was real low come to find out it was low because of all the oil coming out of the rust hole in the oil filter:eek: He had the car from new and never changed the oil. But he got 70,000 miles out of that filter:)

I was at the auto parts store one day when a guy came in to get oil. The car was real low come to find out it was low because of all the oil coming out of the rust hole in the oil filter:eek: He had the car from new and never changed the oil. But he got 70,000 miles out of that filter:)

Can the canister type oil filters do this?

Can the canister type oil filters do this?

Anything can rust, but not likely. On the old canister oil filters the canister itself is much thicker steel than the thin replacable filtes.

well, if you change your oil, oh once a year or so, you ought to be able to catch that rust and fix it looooong before it rusts through.

Cars can take alotta crap thesedays. You figure the average new car buyer is only going to keep the car 3-5 years, if that. Obviously the factory doesn't want to pay for warranty repairs, so I swear they are engineering the engines with the expectation of people only adding oil when the oil light comes on. That way, even if the customer does neglect the engine, it can last long enough to be off warranty and it's the customers problem then.
Of course, that means that the engines will last an eternity when properly cared for.
Of course, thesedays alot of cars have an oil life indicator, and the computer will tell you when to change the oil. I suppose if you don't change it when it says to they could say it's your fault, no warranty.

...............She didn't get it. Kept telling me "but I added oil every few months"..............

The best way to explain this to those not so mechanically inclined is to equate the engine oil change with taking a bath. The engine is bathed in oil. Just adding oil vs changing is like keeping the bath water in the tub, never draining it and just adding soap or water as needed. Also every 1000 miles longer than needed is like not taking a bath for a week.

This tends to work well, except for those few who don't take baths.

I have found with this driver personality you also have to explain why the following are bad. Hitting the gas before putting the car in gear, going from reverse to first with the car moving, ridding with the foot on the break/clutch, over or under reving before shifting, constant panic stops, never rotating tires, buying gas from no-name cheapy gas stations, driving the car when missing and so on.

Like my old auto mechanics professor said, "You can fix everything except the loose nut behind the steering wheel"

http://frantzoilfilters.com/db2/00111/frantzoilfilters.com/_uimages/basichookup2.jpg

The Frantz toilet paper oil filter is a bypass setup. You can still get these if you want that vintage bozo look in your engine compartment....

http://www.wefilterit.com/frantz_facts2.htm

Getting ready to change oil for first time in the 427.......curious what weight motor oil some of you are using?.......and maybe brand.
Mainly all street driving and cruising.

on street motors i use 10-40, then when i store it i put 5-30 in it. for brand trop artic. i was and still am a valvoline fan but they are getting to high priced around here..

I'm currently experimenting with 5w-40 synthetic in my tow wagon winter beater. Regular 10w-40 was too thick in the cold Michigan weather, but the 5w-30 was a little too thin when towing. So far the wider temp range seems to be ideal.

Actual bearing clearances steer the viscosity choice. Tighter clearances won't want high viscosity and vice versa a loose engine won't like thinner oil.
Oil temp is another important factor in viscosity selection, yet very few people have an oil temp gauge. I'll bet that some people that have to run thick thick oil actually have an oil temp problem. We had a discussion on oil coolers somewhere.

Mobil 1 10w40,,,covers a wide range of temperatures and will handle the heat:)

Just my choice.

WP

High vis oil is required for extreme use where it gets very hot and becomes thinner. Round trackers use 50 wt because they punish oil with high temps so it has a low vis while in service. A properly clearanced drag race motor will be fine with 5 wt oil. Many serious drag racers use oil heaters, run 5 wt oil, and only run 3 qts in the motor to gain a HP advantage. I have run 10X30 oil in some of my drag engines for years bracket racing. 750 hp with 400 to 500 passes and the bearings look like new. Heavy oil also helps prematurely stretch timing chains if you use them. I live in SC and in the summer heat towing I run 10W40. The rest of the time I run 10W30. I run 15W50 Mobil1 in my generators which get abused worse than anything I own being air cooled and running for days straight at times. I change my oil frequently and do not use synthetics except for the generators. JMHO, RM

Wilma uses 20-50 Valvoline or Castrol GTX hi-perf stuff in all the BB cars..we use Mobil 1 in the Berger car.

wilma:chev:

I also use 20-50 Valvoline. This is thick for the winter but I don't drive it in the winter. Later.

Mark!

I'm currently experimenting with 5w-40 synthetic in my tow wagon winter beater. Regular 10w-40 was too thick in the cold Michigan weather, but the 5w-30 was a little too thin when towing. So far the wider temp range seems to be ideal.

Actual bearing clearances steer the viscosity choice. Tighter clearances won't want high viscosity and vice versa a loose engine won't like thinner oil.
Oil temp is another important factor in viscosity selection, yet very few people have an oil temp gauge. I'll bet that some people that have to run thick thick oil actually have an oil temp problem. We had a discussion on oil coolers somewhere.

What is an acceptable range for oil temperature?

In addition to oil temperature, what are other signs to indicate that a chosen oil viscosity is too thick or too thin?

Thanks,
Travis

I'm breaking in my 406 with 10w30. Organic, not synthetic.
First change was after 30 minutes of running - car still on jack stands, in the garage. Second change came after another 30 minutes, still in the garage, on stands. Once the car hits the road, it'll be 10w40. Still organic.

Synthetic oil molecules are the same as ones from the ground except they can be made more uniform. There are many myths about synthetic oils. I think we've discussed that with links to further reading in another thread (Mobil 1 Leaks and Other oil questions (http://stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26510)).

Here's web site with further oil info and a chart (http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html)with VI (Viscosity Index) for various oils and weights. Notice that the variation in VI for oils of the same weight class.

Using too heavy an oil increases friction drag and may actually reduce the life of the engine. Hot oil works best, but too hot is not good. Oil temp should be kept in the 215-230 F range. If the oil temp exceeds that then an Oil to air oil cooler with in inline thermostat or a Oil to coolant cooler should be used.

Thanks to all for great feedback and discussion.

A friend of mine. Who me change my own oil, are you crazy. Dad said that oil never wears out. Well friend of mine (MIKE) I think after I get ya goin agian you will learn to change your own oil or take it somewhere. This is a shame. Under 60,ooo original miles. 1996 Dodge 5.2 (318) roller cam magnum. I don't think it ever seen an oil change. A photo is worth a thousand words plus probally a couple thousand dollars. I think I can reuse the heads and intake. Bottom end is garbage. Oil pan has big ol hole in it also. For those of you who been putting off changing that oil, go for it. Oil and filter are cheap.:cool:

wow thats ridiculous...a ford truck site i was on the guys were always getting oil analysis done and going like 20k between changes.....no thanks, i change mine every 3

We ought to move that to powertrain section so I can put that in the oil change thread.

We ought to move that to powertrain section so I can put that in the oil change thread.
So it is written, so it shall be done.

Yul-atoriusRex :D

A friend of mine. Who me change my own oil, are you crazy. Dad said that oil never wears out. Well friend of mine (MIKE) I think after I get ya goin agian you will learn to change your own oil or take it somewhere. This is a shame. Under 60,ooo original miles. 1996 Dodge 5.2 (318) roller cam magnum. I don't think it ever seen an oil change. A photo is worth a thousand words plus probally a couple thousand dollars. I think I can reuse the heads and intake. Bottom end is garbage. Oil pan has big ol hole in it also. For those of you who been putting off changing that oil, go for it. Oil and filter are cheap.:cool:


Same goes for rear end lube. A buddy of mine decided to dig his 65 chevy II out of storage to start drag racing again.He rebuilt the engine and tranny. On his first trip to the drags he picked me up at 5a.m. we drove five hours to the track.He did a nice burn out.Launched hard.mid track he started slowing.Every tooth was cleaned off the ring gear.long drive home..to change the gears and the seven year old lube.lesson learned.

Same goes for rear end lube. A buddy of mine decided to dig his 65 chevy II out of storage to start drag racing again.He rebuilt the engine and tranny. On his first trip to the drags he picked me up at 5a.m. we drove five hours to the track.He did a nice burn out.Launched hard.mid track he started slowing.Every tooth was cleaned off the ring gear.long drive home..to change the gears and the seven year old lube.lesson learned.

if your engine oil is bad and old, you would notice a difference in performance right? and if your tranny fluid is old or bad it would slip right? would that be the same for the rear end? if fluid was old or bad would you be able to tell by it slipping or anything?

if your engine oil is bad and old, you would notice a difference in performance right? and if your tranny fluid is old or bad it would slip right? would that be the same for the rear end? if fluid was old or bad would you be able to tell by it slipping or anything?

If the car is a posi I think the carrier may start making some noises,especially going around tight turns.The lube would not perform as well as it got old. If I store something for a while (say four months or longer) I always change the oil before I fire it up,even if it is the lawn mower.Lubricants are cheaper than repairs.

This place where I worked several years ago changed the oil and filters in the trucks every 10K-14K miles.......and then they used cheapest filters and oil they could get. They would scratch their heads when the trucks started smoking with 60K on the odometer.

how often should you change the rear end lube

how often should you change the rear end lube

Not sure.my guess would be app.30,000 miles ? Rearend lube is very heavy,pretty much sealed from dirt etc. I know there are different additives for posi's etc.

You drag racers out there,what do you guys do ?

I drove about 40 miles with my 355 and lost oil pressure. Gas diluted the oil and wiped the crank main bearings. It is now in pieces and I am looking for a 383 rotating assembly to redo it.
I am not shure what caused it. Maybe the rings did not seal correctly when broken-in. The carb was working good and not leaking into the intake.
Make shure your oil does not smell like gas!!!
Don

As far as rearend lube goes they recomend changing it every 15,000 miles or every 2 years for petrolium based fluids and every 30.000 miles or evry 4 years for synthetics.

Really depends on what you are doing w/the vehicle. I would recomend changing it every 15,000 miles for sure no matter what fkuid you are running. Think about it like this. Most differentials hold around 2 quarts of fluid. There is no filter for when metal particles start rubbing off no matter how small the particles may be. Also there is no cooling system and it's all contained (in most cases) in a cast iorn shell that's like an inch thick. Doesn't really help it cool off if you get my drift. The hotter oil runs the faster it breaks down and doesn't lubricate as well. Trust me diffs run HOT! the next time you get back from a short trip on the freeway just stick your hand on the back of that diff and you'll see what I mean. Basicly what I'm saying is if you are hard on your vehicle or put lots of long miles on it you may want to change it more often than in you car you run back and fouth to the store every few days.

Just my opinion
Miles

A friend of mine. Who me change my own oil, are you crazy. Dad said that oil never wears out. Well friend of mine (MIKE) I think after I get ya goin agian you will learn to change your own oil or take it somewhere. This is a shame. Under 60,ooo original miles. 1996 Dodge 5.2 (318) roller cam magnum. I don't think it ever seen an oil change. A photo is worth a thousand words plus probally a couple thousand dollars. I think I can reuse the heads and intake. Bottom end is garbage. Oil pan has big ol hole in it also. For those of you who been putting off changing that oil, go for it. Oil and filter are cheap.:cool:

Looks like the LaBrea tar pits.