PG or TH350 to 700R4 swap questions

I am hoping someone out there has done what I'm wanting to do ( so I can copy off them, kidding ) I am wanting an overdrive transmission for my 64 Chevy 2 Wagon. I am not going to race it, but I am going to drive it alot on highways, etc. I am building a 350 eng. 4 brl. Carb, Alum. Intake etc. It will have power when I need it but get me where I need to go. I have questions on several things. I am leaning toward a 700 R4 and have access to one and a man that is knowledgeable about rebuilding them.
1) How dependable can one be for my application?
2) Any modification to the floor tunnel?
3) What types of shifters are available?
4) Can you use a bench seat with floor shift?
These are all things I need to consider ( and any others you can think of ) before I decide on rear end ratios, interior work, etc. Don't get me wrong I'm aways from certain things, but I like to know what I'm up against beforehand and if it is to expensive to do.

A 700R4 will very dependable and will fit in with no modification to the tunnel. You'll need to obtain a tranny crossmember that will work with the 700R4 either by modifying a stock one or buying a ready made one. You'll need to address the TV cable and linkage, the dipstick and tube, the stock driveshaft will be about 3" too long. You'll want to take care of the lockup circuit so it works to your satisfaction.
You can use most any shifter for the tranny, from the stock column shifter to an aftermarket unit. If you have headers and want to use the column shifter, you will need to modify the column shifter linkage. If you use an aftermarket floor shifter you should have no clearance problems with a bench seat if you mount it properly.
I would select a rear ratio of 3.50 or higher to keep the final drive ratio from dropping much below 2.50.

I also have a 1964 Chevy II Wagon.
I have swapped in a 350 and 2004R overdrive automatic.
The advantage to the 2004R is you will not need to cut your driveshaft, it has tighter spacing on the gear ratios, a greater overdrive percent, and it will definitely not require tunnel modifications.

You may not need to modify the tunnel for a 700R4, but not having done that, I cannot say for sure. Others here have and they will respond.

The advantage to the 700R4 are a steeper first gear than the 2004R, it is a slightly newer design, and it may be slightly stronger in stock form than a stock 2004R.

I am running a B&M Quicksilver shifter and have retained the bench seat. This shifter and a few others will work with either trans and can support either a 3speed ro 4 speed automatic.

Check out the WEB site for Bow Tie Overdirves. They are in Hesperia California and they specialize in overdrive conversions for Chevys. They have virtually every part needed for a bolt in conversion. Since I went with the 200, it was a bolt in swap. Not sure if they have driveshafts though. You will need a cross member, TV cable setup, trans cooler and lines, shifter, and overdrive switch. I have also installed a manual TC lock-up switch for (2nd and 3rd) and it is probably worth 1-2 MPH in the quarter.

I think Mike Gobel once posted what driveshaft was a bolt in for a 700R4 conversion, so it can be done without cutting your stock shaft.

My wagon will cut high 12 second passes at the track and on the first "Long Trip" achieved over 18MPG. I was pretty happy with that.

Oh, and by the way, it is still pretty good for hauling the mulch in the spring time too.

You will not regret this change.

18 mpg... I almost hate you now Dan lol. I miss the days when I got over 20 mpg with the 2.73's and 200 4r. Now I get 13-14 mpg on the highway. Oh well, the price you pay daily driving a musclecar.

Kev

I too have a 700r4 in my 67 Wagon. I retained the column shift with the help of a shift rod by Kugle(sp) ( I think I got it from BTO with my trans)...it has the swivel joints on each end and it came with the arm to connect to the trans. and a bushing for the shift arm at the end of the column, I had to form it to fit past my Doug headers, works great and I can get all the gears. The column shift allows for plenty of room in the front seat area for that third pass... ;) I also used BTO trans cross member; it has clearance for your exhaust, (real neat design). BTO also has the right type of hookup for the TV cable to your carb. Check them out at www.700r4.com.. Any questions. Just ask...Chris

My 63 had a 700 installed in it a couple months ago. Huge difference in cruising and noticeable difference in fuel.

The installer had to pry the tunnel slightly with a screwdriver, other than that it bolted right up to a Bowtie Overdrives crossmember. He also had to modify the dipstick and tube length as it would stick up above the hood, but you can also get flexible ones available through Lokar and maybe other sources.

There are various brackets available for the TV cable, depending on which carb you are using. You may also have to get an adapter for the throttle linkage on the carbeurator to allow proper geometry of the TV cable. TV Made EZ systems are available for pretty well any carb you have through Bowtie Overdrives;
http://www.tvmadeez.com/pressure_test/index.php

I also had to convert to a cable throttle due to interference with the solid rod-type throttle lever.

Hey guys,

I am thinking about changing out my T350 to a 700R4. I currently have a 327 - 350 HP engine attached to a T350 with a 3200-3800 stall converter. The rear end has a powertrax diff. with 4:10's. I love the power off the line but because of the rear end gearing the car is not a highway driver (55mph at 3000 RPM). I have been in contact with a great tranny guy who is building me up a a 700 R4. He recommends that the new stall be a stock rated one at 1800-1900 RPM. Questions.. will I get close to the same performance off the line with the stall being so low? Will the overdrive in the tranny give me decent highway speeds with a much lower RPM? Should I have a higher rated stall put in rather than the one he recommends? Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

Pete

Pete,
I can't tell you about the difference in performance off the line between the two torque converters, but I can tell you that you will have a considerable decrease in rpms on the highway with overdrive. You will probably be somewhere around 2000 rpm at 55mph compared to the 3000 with the TH350.

Here is a link for you for calculating rpm's;
http://www.dalesplace.com/htm/information/rpm_calculator.htm

How about lockup? Do you plan on having lockup manually via a toggle switch, or would you go with a vacuum switch? I wired up a toggle switch for mine after buying a brake switch and plug from my G.M. dealer which made it mych cheaper than going the vacuum switch route. Someone posted a wiring diagram some time ago, and I have it on file if you would like.

Setting up the TV cable is the most important job of the install, as doing it incorrectly can fry up the tranny in a manner of a few hundred miles. TV Made EZ by Bowtie Overdrives seems to be a pretty popular choice. I just installed a Lokar cable yesterday which seems to be working quite well.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the reply Paul. I was told that I should go via electric lock up. I really have no idea what this means? I was on the Chevy2only site and was looking for all the parts necessary to make the changeover. I came up with these things...

FLEXIBLE DIP STICK FOR AUTO TRANS, 4 SPEED OVERDRIVE 700R4
16029 THROTTLE VALVE CABLE 700R4
KICK DOWN CABLE BRACKET ON INTAKE, USE W/ 16029 & 16014
16002 TRANSMISSION CROSSMEMBER 700R4
16055 CONVERTOR LOCK UP KIT FOR 700R4 & 200R4

Let me know if I am missing anything.

Pete,
Keep us updated on your progress!I think that we can use this use this th350 to an 700r4 swap as a way to help all members "walk " through the process and the parts,problems,cost,benefits,etc. that goes with a project of this type.
This would be the perfect time to start a real "how to" thread!

Whatta you think guys!
Mike

He is probably suggesting a lower stall due to the higher numerical first gear of the 700. I would think you would want it to stall a little higher, maybe in the 2200-2400 range to get a decent launch with the 350hp cam. You might also check out the tv easy that Bowtie Overdrives sell. It makes the cable adjustment fairly painless.

He is probably suggesting a lower stall due to the higher numerical first gear of the 700. I would think you would want it to stall a little higher, maybe in the 2200-2400 range to get a decent launch with the 350hp cam. You might also check out the tv easy that Bowtie Overdrives sell. It makes the cable adjustment fairly painless.

Chevrolet used a convertor in the Corvette 700R4s with a stall speed of about 2075. I have been running this convertor for years with no problems. What can I say, my transmission builder hates B&M.

I had a 700R4 in my TA untill I swapped out for manual.

Try to make sure that the core for the 700R4 is from an 87-up vehicle. From the factory internal changes were made to increase their strength.

As far as stall I would go with a 2400 stall with lockup. I had a stock stall then changed to 2400, nice change but not too much stall. I have 3.42 rear gears.

Good luck

Wouldn't/Shouldn't the cam that you are running be a bigger influence on your choice of stall speed then the rear diff gear ratio? I would bet your cam card has a recomendation on it for stall speed or at least it should be able to point you in the correct direction.

For example the cam card below:

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1969&Engine_Size=262-400%20C.I.&partNumber=110921&partType=camshaft

Ok... I've been doing my fair share of research on this change over and am finding lots of things. I have been looking at the Bowtie Overdrive site and liking the TV Made EZ kits, the complete circuit relay kit for the converter lockup, and the transmission cross member. The other stuff like the drive line, dip stick & tube and dust cover I will get through Chevy2only. I am still researching the issue of the stall converter. I am thinking though that I want at least a 2200 if not a 2400 stall. Anymore input?

Pete :o

I had one in my 67, w/ a bowtie overdrives TV kit and a Lokar flexible dipstick. I also used the bowtie overdrives trans xmember. It worked awesome. If you don't have a gigantic high hp motor or lots of nitrous I'd say there is no other tranny to run. And I would run a little more stall, with anything any bigger than a 270 adv duration cam...stock converter will be sluggish. Even 260 adv duration with a smaller motor.

I would run a little more stall, with anything any bigger than a 270 adv duration cam...stock converter will be sluggish. Even 260 adv duration with a smaller motor.

What stall would you recommend?

What stall would you recommend?


Do you happen to know the specs for your cam? That would help a lot, IMO, when picking out a stall speed. :)

Wouldn't/Shouldn't the cam that you are running be a bigger influence on your choice of stall speed then the rear diff gear ratio? I would bet your cam card has a recomendation on it for stall speed or at least it should be able to point you in the correct direction.

For example the cam card below:

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1969&Engine_Size=262-400%20C.I.&partNumber=110921&partType=camshaft

I agree. The cam profile should be the deciding factor. Sometimes, you have to make a compromise if there is not enough gear but that does not appear to be a factor. If a lock up convertor is used, and wired to be functional, convertor slippage at cruise speeds will not be an issue anyway. That opens the door to running more stall and seeing quicker dragstrip times.

It is an L79 cam

advertised @5 degrees lift lobe angle

320/320 221/221 .447/.447 114

Is there a downfall if you too low of a stall?

Thanks for all the help guys.

Pete

It is an L79 cam

advertised @5 degrees lift lobe angle

320/320 221/221 .447/.447 114

Is there a downfall if you too low of a stall?

Thanks for all the help guys.

Pete

Well if you have too little stall it will effect the cars launch. For example lets say your cam maker suggests a 3000 + rpm stall cause the cam is designed to start making power at 3000 rpm and above. You install a 1800 rpm convertor. When you go to launch the car hard the car at most will be launching at 1800 rpm 1100 rpm lower than the power band on the cam and the launch would very likely be mushy/sluggish. The car once rolling however and got up to 3000+ rpm the power would pour on and the car would appear to come to life. This is JMO.

One thing that is interesting is that your advertised duration is 320 degrees but your @ .050 duration is only 221. WOW that seems like a big difference. With 320 advertised duration I would expect to see about (ballpark guess) 270ish @.050 duration. Hmmmmm....you wouldn't happen to have the grind number and the makers name? :confused:

One thing that is interesting is that your advertised duration is 320 degrees but your @ .050 duration is only 221. WOW that seems like a big difference. With 320 advertised duration I would expect to see about (ballpark guess) 270ish @.050 duration. Hmmmmm....you wouldn't happen to have the grind number and the makers name? :confused:


The cam is an original L79 cam PN#3863152 from Chevy.
:cool:

Well cool...that cam though it is sold through GM is actully made by Crane. Possibly they might be able to give you some answers as to what the best convertor stall speed for your combo would be.

I just looked though the PAW cat. and in the cam section they have a little guide to help you pick the correct cam. They say for a cam from 215-224 degrees of duration @ .050 they normally have the following characteristics.

Idle quality: fair idle with slight lope
Power band: excellent mid range throttle response 2000-4800rpm
Torque band: excellent mid range torque 2500-4000rpm
Axle ratio: 3.55-3.73
Compression: not to exceed 10.5:1

Not sure but maybe something in the low to mid 2k range would be just about right with that cam....Just a thought... :)

This might help. If memory serves me right, this should be the 327/350 hp camshaft.
3863151 Hydraulic Flat Tappet
This hydraulic flat tappet is used on the 65-67 Corvette and Chevy II L-79. It has excellent power and torque (ID# 3863152). The duration at lash point in degrees (intake/exhaust) is 320/320; duration at .050" tappet lift (intake/exhaust) is 221/221 and maximum lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio (intake/exhaust) is 447/447. Valve lash is zero/zero and lobe centerline is 114 degrees.

Most camshaft manufacturers offer a blueprint replacement of this cam because of it's popularity. These are Crane's notes on this grind.
Camshaft Kit, Hydraulic
Single pattern, blueprinted replacement for factory P/N 3863151 with 350 hp and 327 cu. in. camshaft.
Technical Notes: Basic rpm range is 2200 - 5200; cruise rpm at 60 mph is 3000 - 3400 and compression ratio is 9.5 - 10.75. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 222/222 degrees, and the valve lift is .447"/.447". Lobe centerline is 114.

Yep that looks like what I saw for it. Looks like it should be a sweet little cam. And, though this is not a reason to choose a cam, at idle it should sound pretty good too. :cool: :)

I have found several listings that put peak torque for this cam grind at 3000 rpms. According to B&M, the stall speed should be rated at about 500-750 RPM under your engine's peak torque RPM. My advise, be conservative in your estimate.

Thanks for all the research guys. I am thinking now that 2400 stall is the one.

:D

I have the stock 3.08 gears with the 700R4 and a 350. Much like everyone here says it is great and very nice on the gas on the freeway.

I bought mine from Phoenix Transmission in Texas. Rated for 500 HP with a 2400 stall. I ordered mine with Dipstick, TV cable, torque convertor bolts, rear mount for the Chevy II, rear trans mount and carb TV cable adapters. They even asked about the final gears and tire size and put the correct speedometer gear in. Everything went together no problem.

There is a tail shaft that gives more clearence if you need it.

I lucked out, the previous owner had put in a TH350, but the 9" long tail shaft one from a truck. My driveline worked with the new 700R4 trans just right.

This 700R4 is designed for Auto-lock up. Any time you are in 4th and light throttle over 40, it locks up automagically. I just had to run power to 1 wire.

The point is there is a lot of aftermarket support for the 700R4. Trying to adapt a "Stock" one may be more pain than it is worth. Get one built for what you are going to do and you should be real happy with it.

I would say you are pretty much dead on with a 2400-2600 stall. I don't know why Chevy's advertised duration is so long on their performance cams. In fact one of their cams lists advertised duration at 366 degrees. I have often wondered how the duration can be more than the entire rotation!!! But going off of .050 lift is the best way if it is a Chevy cam. The L-79 cam will work with a stock converter but it will perform a whole lot better with the stall. Usually when using .050 lift as a deciding factor on the stall, I was always told stock converter will work fine with anything up to 220 @ 050. But, like I said the car will leave a whole lot better with a stall.

I would say you are pretty much dead on with a 2400-2600 stall. I don't know why Chevy's advertised duration is so long on their performance cams. In fact one of their cams lists advertised duration at 366 degrees. I have often wondered how the duration can be more than the entire rotation!!! But going off of .050 lift is the best way if it is a Chevy cam. The L-79 cam will work with a stock converter but it will perform a whole lot better with the stall.


I believe that the duration numbers they talk about are based on crankshaft degrees of rotation not camshaft degrees of rotation. Remember the crank rotates at twice the speed of the cam. So in that case the 366 degrees they are talking about is for the crank. While the cam in that instance would only have rotated 183 degrees. :)

I am also going with 700r4 in my 67, I have been told that a driveshaft out of a Vega is the correct length is this correct? and is it strong enough? not a race car but will want to show the punk kids a lesson or two sometimes when me and moma go cruzin!!!! the engine is around 400 hp 350 based on edlebrocks combonation of rpm stuff.
What mods to oe cross member or does anyone have spec sheets or details on how to modify the oe crossmbr?
thanks
rich

Since you can buy a better than factory quality crossmember for about $150 for this swap, I don't even think it is worth it to go through the effort. The new one will even have the space for dual exhaust pipes which the factory one likely will not.

IMO since you can make this a bolt in swap, why make it more difficult?

Rich,
I got a 700R4 put in my car this spring and used a driveshaft out of a Vega. It was a bolt-in. I went to the wreckers and it just happened to be sitting in the back seat of the Vega :D . Took it home, cleaned it up and painted it, installed new u-joints and got it balanced before it was installed.

I got a hold of a crossmember out of a 65 Nova and began modifying it for the 700R4 swap but ended up getting one from Bowtie Overdrives. Real nice piece and it provides a lot of clearance for exhaust. I'd recommend getting one of those.

Send me an email if you want a wiring diagram for lockup using a toggle switch. The brake switch and plug for the tranny are are available at your local G.M. dealership, and you can pick up a toggle switch and wiring anywhere.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the input. i will try to find a vega shaft and will go with the bto crossmember that seems to be the majority of the answers. Will the vega shaft take a few rips once in awhile nothing serious like weekend at the strip but if i want to light-em up i dont want to worry about a shaft twisting or busting a yoke.
rich :chev:

Rich,
Not sure how much abuse a Vega driveshaft can take. I haven't taken mine to the track but have squacked the tires occassionally and light up the tires a bit in my driveway to amuse my little ones. :D I thought it would scare them the first time I did it, but they just laughed.

I am getting ready to install an overdrive automatic in my 65 nova SS 2 dr coupe. My car came stock with a 283ci SB an a powerglide trans. I have converted the stock motor to a TPI setup from a 91 305ci Camaro. The conversion went off with out any major problems. I want to install a 700r4 trans to complete the conversion. My nova came with a center console floor shift. Does anyone have a sample of the detent that attaches to the shifter so I can use the original floor shift. I just hate to think I must spend 60.00 dollors on just the detent. I have purchased the lens. That was only 8.00, but to spend 60.00 on a piece of notched plate seems crazy. I would appreciate any photo's of the detent out of the car. Something I might be able to scale from and make one from the pic's. I am also intrested in a line on a crossmember that will work on this swap. Thanks for any help!


65 nova SS 2dr coupe 80,000 original miles
Chris Alston chassisworks front clip
TPI fuel injection 283ci .030 over (custom chip)

I got a crossmember from Bowtie Overdrives for my 700R4 conversion. Not cheap, but real nice looking and a good quality piece that leaves a lot of clearance for exhaust.

Here is a link for you:
http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/index.shtml

Can't help on the dtent but I went with the bowtie crossmember as dwell. Wasn't a perfect fit but a couple minutes with the grinder and it slid right in. I went with a ratchet shifter but would have preferred a stock configuration

arndog

Ditto on the Bowtie crossmember. Others make them as well. I could have made one, but for the price, it wasn't worth it to me. It fit really well.

One thing to remember on the Shiftworks detent: It's heat treated like the factory one for wear. I built my own shifter for my 64 SS's console with a 700R4. All parts were heat treated for durability.

Tim

Hi, I just finished my 700 conversion, went with the bowtie cross member, drilled 4 holes in my subframe bolted it up, went with the 700 linkage to connect to my shifter, Now I don't know how to hook up the prndl to the shifter cause the old 74 one was machanical, also the speed O doesn't work because I have to find some sort of adaptor for the old mechanical speedo, another thing, I bought the detent and the wiring for the 700 right from bowtie no wasted time there and it was over 100$ cheaper than the ones at the autoparts store. Drove it around today, my temp gauge didn't even get close to 160 and it was 91 here in SWFlorida!!! thats quite a difference in the RPM. Well those are the thing to remember. good luck....

will a 700R4 trans fit in a 67 with out modifing the floor pan/tunnel? the TH350 is tight as is. I want the overdrive but don't want to hack up my floors.

The guy that bolted up the 700R4 in my 63 said he had to pry one spot on the floor to make it go in.

hi novabro, putting a 700r4 in your car should be no problem:) you would need a new crossmenber and have a new drive shaft made or your old one cut down. i put one in my 66 without any mods to the tunnel. i used a bowtie overdrive crossmember and their detent cable linkage for the carb. i kept the stock shifter and used a shiftworks conversion kit on it. it worked out just fine;) but as with every thing else on the car,it adds up fast:eek: http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/novafied/IMG_1381.jpg

hmmm. sounds good I think I will go with the 700R4 and a lokar shifter and some 3.55 gears in the rear.

novaBRO,
I used a driveshaft from a Vega (bolt-in), but you can also use one from a 70-81 Camaro which requires a different u-joint. I went with the Bowtie Overdrives crossmember as well which is a nice looking piece and leaves a lot of clearance for exhast as you can see in novafied's picture.

You are considering 3.55's? That is what is in my rear, and it runs at about 2000 rpm at 60 mph (205-60-15's), much better than 3000 at 60mph that is used to be :)

The tailhousing on either side where the bolt heads are required me to smack with a plastic weighted hammer a few times about an 1/8th of an inch only because of the thick bolt heads. My entire set up is Bowtie. No complaints

I just put the motor and tranny in my 68 today. The 700R rubber mount seems to be too big to fit. When I jack the tranny up it hits the tunnel way before I can get the rubber mount under it :confused: Are there differant size rubber mounts or do I need a differant cross member? Thanks for the help.

Well I went with a NNN conversion and crossmember. The detent and linkage plus the lens was under 60.00 and the cross was 115.00 So All is good around here for the time being. Thanks for the input good luck on all your projects;) ;) :D