Kev's budget 350 project thread

I can get a set of L98 Corvette heads for my 307 for $400. This would resolve my oil usage problem and be a significant upgrade to my current mismatched powerpack/267 head. They are 56 cc's, so my compression will come up a good bit. The aluminum is nice too. Sound like a good deal?

Kev

They are ready to bolt on? Larger valves, and higher compression? I'm sorry what was the question again? If they are good heads, and ready to bolt on, I would say $400 is a good deal. I would jump on it with both feet!!

Randy (just my opinion though) ;)

I can get a set of L98 Corvette heads for my 307 for $400.

I thought ****$ was TIGHT since ya couldn't buy my springs and ARP bolts for $35 :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

yeah, what's up with that ??? we had that Columbian deal go sour too, cause of TIGHT ****$ !!!!!


hahahhahahahahha


make sure the heads will work with your configuration, Kev.

Don't you guys know the money will come from the bank of Mom & Dad??

If you are going to put a 350 (real engine :eek: ) in the Nova to replace the little 307, those heads will be a good addition.

Randy (then you can plan a complimenting combo) ;)

That was exactly my thought. Most of the small bore heads don't work well with 350's. These one's will do fine on both. Dave, I can buy your springs now, just got a paycheck and I sold off some books. I make $8.00 an hour in the summers plus umpiring and grass cutting, but money gets pretty tight during the school year though.

Kev

That was exactly my thought. Most of the small bore heads don't work well with 350's. These one's will do fine on both. Dave, I can buy your springs now, just got a paycheck and I sold off some books. I make $11.50 an hour in the summers, money gets pretty tight during the school year though.

Kev

I was just jerking yer chain :p

I was just jerking yer chain :p

Jerk harder, he's still breathing. :p

I know. Just letting you know that my wallet is getting fuller:).

Kev

I know. Just letting you know that my wallet is getting fuller:).

Kev

Full wallet, eh? Not a problem in my house :eek:

Don't forget I got this 350 sitting here for you.

I thought maybe you forgot about it Paul:).

Any idea on when you can get the project rolling? I may just put it off a summer and run the 307 a while longer.

Kev

Might get rolling pretty soon now that I'm not going to Mexico. I figure you want me to keep it under $500?

i know you're set on getting this 307 to run as fast as you possibly can, but i personally think it's a pain in the ***** to change a set of heads on a motor you're thinking of pulling out anyway. i know, the 307 will be better with these new ones than with the current set, but it'll save a set of head gaskets and a weekend of work if you just wait til it's time for the 350. just my two bits

Paul, do what you need to do. What kind of parts are going in to it? $500 would be great, but if you need to spend a little more that would be fine with me. Thanks a ton.

Kev

i know you're set on getting this 307 to run as fast as you possibly can, but i personally think it's a pain in the ***** to change a set of heads on a motor you're thinking of pulling out anyway. i know, the 307 will be better with these new ones than with the current set, but it'll save a set of head gaskets and a weekend of work if you just wait til it's time for the 350. just my two bits


Ditto....it seems like a lot fo work for what in reality is for nothing....Not sure if this is worth 2 bits but I will say its at least worth a dime :D


What is 2 bits (http://www.geocities.com/fifth_grade_tpes/twobits.html)

Well, it's a matter of limited resources and what I want to spend them on. I have a well designed set up now where all the pieces work pretty well together. It's taken me a couple years, but the combo all matches. I've always intended to meet some different goals when I went to a 350.

I want the 350 to be towards the ragged edge of streetable. I want a big solid cam, a 3500 converter, and I want to pretty much go racing with it. The 307 is pretty mild and works well for what I want it to do. It's got plenty of pep and still gets good gas mileage if I take it out to see the lady friend in Ohio. The motor still runs well and it kind of pains me to rip it out and throw it away when I'm satisfied with it for now.

I can spend $500 on the Wright Stuff claimer engine, but then I don't have a set of heads to complement it. I'm gonna want to add higher stall converter. I'm going to need to change the carb. Not to mention the agravation of swapping motors. I don't really think my father would be too supportive of swapping motors when everything works A-OK.

I'm really gonna be pushing my luck if I buy all this stuff too. I've been intending on using my summer work money on rent and food for next year so I don't have to take out a big private student loan next year and kill me later on. It sucks to pay for your education because $60,000 is a lot of money when you start thinking about interest.

The question is... instant gratification and future financial burden? Or plop a set of heads on top and enjoy what I have for a couple years?

Kev

Paul, do what you need to do. What kind of parts are going in to it? $500 would be great, but if you need to spend a little more that would be fine with me. Thanks a ton.

Kev

Kev,
It'll be good quality parts (new rings, bearings, seals,) but don't expect any titanium rods or billet cranks. The block, crank, rods and maybe the pistons are used parts from my collection.
Are you going to use those Corvette heads on it? You might want to consider sending me the heads. I can give them a fluff up and install them.

My past experience with helping people is "no good deed goes unpunished".
I'm thinking I should put the engine on the run in stand so there's no problems or issues. That would mean permanently installing a cam, valvetrain and intake. If you have parts send them too otherwise we'll have to discuss what to use. As you know that's about $400 or more for that stuff.
I could use an off the shelf carb,distributor, fuel and water pump but take those parts off before loading it up in your truck or trailer. Then you swap the parts from the 307 and you're up and running in a weekend or two.

OK, and for all those that PM'd me thinking they'd get the same deal?

Fugheddabowdit.

This is a one time charity deal for Kev.

Kevin, another idea would be to take Paul's original offer and keep it at your parent's place for a year or so while you still run your 307. You'd be able to add on to the new motor as budget/time allows.

I should just give you those springs and bolts since I'm in such a good mood now after getting my Demon carb working wonderfully yesterday :)

It sucks to pay for your education because $60,000 is a lot of money when you start thinking about interest.


Kev

Hey, there's a great new college financial aid program out there...

1) 100% Tuition..
2) Lodging and Food provided..
3) Clothing provided..
4) Opportunity for study abroad..

Apply at your local United States Armed Forces recruiter's station.

Kevin needs to stay in school. I got a chance to sample his professional videography techniques and he won't be making a living doing that :eek: ;) :D

Yah know, I might be able to grab the set of camelhumps my dad has sitting in the garage for an amazingly good deal. He's been thinking long and hard on a set of aftermarket heads.

Paul, I'd like to keep my 307 up and running in the mean time. For a max performance effort, this cam should suffice...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7969535738&category=33614

hehehe.

Kev

Just got off the phone with my dad. He's all for the Wright Stuff Claimer engine. He's going to purchase the L98 heads. I'm going to get the Camelhumps and Paul's motor. So Paul, if you'd like me to send you the heads, I can do that. They're 1.94/1.50 462 casting fuelies without the accessory holes. The heads are freshly redone, but you can check them over if you'd like. THANK YOU SO MUCH for the offer.

Kev

Hey Kev you ever need an help on the videographer work let me know... I try to make a living doing that.

Enjoy it will your still young!

Mark (not so young anymore) :eek:

Lol, I think my video is just fine, thanks! I only used it for about 40 seconds, just enough to get used to the zoom button!

Hey Paul, what kind of pistons do you have sitting around? I'm curious if I'm going to have enough compression to make that large solid camshaft work correctly.

Let's see what I've got so far...

Wright Stuff Claimer shortblock
1.94/1.50 462 Camel Humps
Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold
Edelbrock 500 cfm carb
218/218 .454/.454 Hyd Cam
1.52 Crane Rockers
1 5/8's headers into 2 1/4" exhaust
HEI ignition

Stuff that would be useful...


I have a 600 cfm Eddy in the shed that needs rebuilt. I guess I'll sell the 500 cfm Eddy.

3000-3500 RPM converter-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7969777450&category=63692\

248/251 .531/.542 Solid Camshaft-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7969535738&category=33614

That cam will probably require some stiffer valve springs as well. Comp recommends something in the 132 @ 1.750 seat and 280 @ 1.250 open pressure. These?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7967820455&category=33614

Wow... I think I can actually make this all work within my budget by doing some horse trading and selling some things from the 307/shed. I bet the car will be considerably faster:).

Any thoughts on the above statements?

Kev

Kev, I'm off to Wisconson tomorrow for a day or two to check up on the Honda racer. Are those heads off the car and ready to send?
The Corvette heads would have been better but "beggars can't be choosers" I guess. I'll want to scope them out and see what can be done with them. Most Camel Humps have seen better days but haven't we all. Hopefully the seats aren't sunk too far. Might need a 2.02 upgrade. Luckilly, I have all the cylinder head equipment.

Pistons we'll see about. I have up to 12:1 psitons but I don't want to have to bore and completely rebalance the rotating parts. I'm debating the pro's and cons of zero decking by offset grinding the crank instead of decking the block. A few extra cubes won't hurt.
I better take a cold shower.The cost will spiral up if we get too crazy.

btw, Cam choice comes last but .450" lift is on the low side for what I'm thinking up.

I'm looking at this camshaft:

248/251 .531/.542 on 106 LSA Solid.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7969535738&category=33614

I don't want to reuse the the .454 lift cam. This thing is gonna be a little wild and that's A-OK with me. I'm thinking around 10.5:1, or maybe even 11:1 with the camshaft I'm looking at and proper quench. It's still gotta run on high test if at all possible.

The heads are off of the car and can be sent to you for a checkup. I can purchase correct valve springs in advance and send them up to you if you'd like. When you are ready for the heads, PM me your address and I'll send them up via UPS.

Kev

I'll give this a bump now that Paul is back in town.

Kev

The heads are off of the car and can be sent to you for a checkup. I can purchase correct valve springs in advance and send them up to you if you'd like. When you are ready for the heads, PM me your address and I'll send them up via UPS.

Kev

I'd check out sending them via DHL. Usually cheaper than UPS/Fedex.

Thanks for the tip Dave. If Paul lives close enough I could probably just drive it there for less than the cost to ship. I know it only took me five hours to drive to Flint, and I believe Paul is further south towards Milan or Toledo. We'll see.

Kev

Drop them by where I work in Livonia. I'll show you the GM crate engine department. They might be building 502's.

That's pretty cool. Any times/days good for you? I start work 44 hours a week on Tuesday next week. If Monday is acceptable, I may just make a road trip up there.

Kev

I may be driving to Detroit next week. Let me know if I can make a delivery.

Dan, that would be absolutely clutch of you:).

Kev

Monday through Friday 9:30-5:30 though Saturday is a possibility. Dan let me know via PM or email when you are coming.

Your PM box is full Paul.

Dan said he will be arriving in the Detroit area and will be available to drop off the heads Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning next week. Dan needs directions to your shop and a phone number to contact you with. I'll relay the information to him.

You can email me at kga2-at-pitt.edu

at = @ (keeping spammers away)

Kev

at = @ (keeping spammers away)
Fixing it and selling it to spammers!! :eek:

Randy (wanna make sure Kev gets plenty of email!!) :D

I sent Dan the directions and contact info. We'll see what's what when the head arrives. I'll send you an email from home after I check them out. It will be helpful if they come "degreased". I'll install any parts you provide, so if you have the intake that should come too. I can check port match with my template.

The heads were bead blasted and coated with black primer. They were very recently gone over. My intake manifold is on the 307 and I'd like to keep it there, considering the Nova is my transportation in the summer.

Kev

Paul,

The heads are with Dan, ready for delivery early this week.

Can you give me any thoughts as to what parts are going into the motor and what exactly is being done? Kind of curious as I'm having a motor built on faith right now lol. Good thing I have lots of faith in you:).

Would you like me to purchase any other parts in the meantime?

Kev

I want to look at the heads before I buy anything. I know you say the heads are "fresh", but I need to verify the condition. I've found that "expert quality" work from even good machine shops is getting harder to find.
I'm trying to keep the short block budget to $500 and if the heads need guide work, new valves, have sunk seats or improperly ported, then we need to regroup.

The short block will get new rings and fitted bearings. I'm leaning toward Totalseal rings because I've had good results with them. The claimer version is about $100. You can get cheaper rings but I think the added cost is well spent here.
The stock pistons are OK, but if you wanted to spring for a set of forged pistons that's OK but that will boost the cost past $500.

I'm leaning towards ARP bolts in stock, but reconditioned rods. That's about $100-150 but worth it for durability.

Crank is good standard and doesn't need a regrind but if I offset grind the stroke to 3.5" I can improve the compression and squish without decking the block. It will also give 2 more cubes....not alot but combined with the squish and compression gains it's a small but decent improvement.

I've got to find out how much it will cost. The crank place I used to go to is out of business and the racing machine shops are too expensive.
I've got a business card from a guy I met last year who runs Rogers Crank and Machine in St. Charles Michigan. I had talked to him about it offset grinding cranks and he said he did that all the time. If it costs over $250 then a $200 Chinese 383 cast crank looks like a better bargain but the project exceeds the original concept and budget.

Zero decking the block can get the same compression/squish results but without the 2 extra cubes and then there's the intake fit problems.

I also have a new set of .060" claimer pistons on the shelf ($100?). Combined with the 3.5" crank and 4.060" bore you'd have a 362" or 363 engine (362.5) but I'd also have to get the block bored and so that would blow the $500. Balancing the rotating assembly is a worthwhile investment but it's up to you.

Lot's of ideas and ways to skin the cat. Once I see the camels I'll have a better idea of what I'm working with.

Thanks a lot for the heads up Paul, I guess we'll see after you look after the heads.

Thank you,
Kev

Paul,

I was kinda thinking about this. For the budget we're working on, wouldn't it make more sense to not worry about zero-decking or off set grinding? We could just use a shim gasket and accomplish the same thing for a lot less money.

Would it make more sense to buy the correct compression pistons (maybe hypers) for around $100? We could use moly rings instead of the total seals.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7971276610&category=33623

Kev

Kev, nothing's been decided or purchased yet. Hypereutectic pistons require a tighter piston to bore clearance than normal cast and a lot tighter than forged. To use those pistons it would require boring and honing to .030" to get the right clearance (.0015). $160+16+ quality bore, hone and rebalance =about $500. Budget shot.

You'd be better off buying std Speedpro forged for about $225 that like extra clearance (.005) but you'll still have to rebalance.
How much compression are you looking for?
According to my Sealed power book, those .120" dome pistons have a +5cc volume. If we put in a shim gasket then your going to be close to 11:1 even with 64cc heads. That's fine if you can afford what it takes to make it live on the street.

Offset grinding the crank to 3.5" is an old trick. I checked and it's not cost effective on your budget. On the flip side the plain cast rings aren't a good value when you can get much better rings for the cost of a good dinner and movie for two. Speedpro file fit moly rings are about $80. Total Seals are about $100...just $20 more. Rings are something that is buried deep within the engine. It's not wise to skimp here when the cost of oil, gaskets and time is more than the price difference.



Anyway once I get the heads I'll cc them and find out what we can get CR wise. I won't buy anything until we both agree what the plan is.

I haven't heard from Dan and he didn't give me a cell phone number. Is he coming today or tomorrow? I've got to go watch my daughter play softball. I don't want to take off early if he's on the way. He better not show up at 5:30PM if he want's a tour!

I'm not exactly sure when he's coming. I guess it depends on his work schedule. I'd bet he probably won't be around until tomorrow. Take off whenever you need to. Worse comes to worst, he can drop off on the way back to PA.

I'm okay with running a lot of compression. The car gets driven a lot in the summer (time wise, like I take it out and drive it up the street) but I don't really put many miles on it at all. I'm okay with running high test if we can make 11:1 work. I really want to zip down that track in a hurry and not blow up parts. I'm okay with a car that isn't particularly "streetable." I'm young, I can tolerate a lot more less-than-comfortable things in my car.

Perhaps we could get away with running domed cast pistons. Just have to watch out that I don't build a ticking time bomb. I'm not going to use nitrous, but a couple mid 12 second slips would be really nice.

What are the limits of a cast piston?

Kev

Kev,
Dan arrived this afternoon and I gave him a tour (he was very surprised at what he saw!) Dan's a real nice guy as are most people I've met through the web site. Bringing these out for you was a nice favor. Make sure you thank him.

Anyway, the heads are here and they don't look too bad. I thought you said they were ported but these ports haven't been touched by a grinder (that's a good thing). The intake valves do look sunk but I'll need to take them apart to check that out. They still have press fit rocker studs so I wouldn't want to get too crazy with cam lift and spring pressure.
I have the means to machine them for screw in studs, install stainless 2.02 Intakes and port them properly but that may be beyond the scope of the project intent.

I know you want to go fast but speed costs money. Keep in mind that a real front runner "claimer" motor often costs 4 times the claim price.
Give me some time to check it all out and make a list of what we need to do to build a reliable, decent running 350 for your car.

Wow, I'm jeaous! Dan got a tour :) Kev, you could always put your car on a diet instead of adding power.

A big THANK YOU goes out to Dan. That was a really nice favor of you.

Good to hear the camel humps are in decent shape. Those were never ported, the 305 heads have a little bit of work in them and the powerpacks on my 307 have been hogged out quite a bit.

Paul, maybe you could just touch up the castings and leave the 1.94/1.50 valves in. Converting to screw in studs isn't much time or money, is it?

Dave, my car is pretty light already at a fairly swelt 3250 pounds.

Kev

Dave, my car is pretty light already at a fairly swelt 3250 pounds.

Just put mine on the scales today...3340# with 1/2 tank of fuel.

Paul was kind enough to give me a tour of the Roush facility. He certainly works in a gear head's candy store. No doubt about it.
I don't just mean for Ford Guys either. Chevy Power was well represented.

That place is for real!

Thanks for the tour Paul!

Kev. just wanted to butt in for a minute. If you need any help with the bottom end or just some REAL GOOD advice. Go see Tommy at advanced engines in east Mckeesport. Tommy is an excellent engine builder who builds for some of the fastest cars on the track. Easy going and friendly too. Tell him Jerry from Tn. thunder motorsports in Memphis sent you. Bobs brother in law. He has a nice dyno too.

Dan, I found out later the filming we saw when we toured the crate engine department was for Horsepower TV. They are doing a segment on the 572. How it's built from start to finish. I'll find out when it airs and let everyone know. What Dan saw was only one building and a fraction of what we do and there's something new almost every day. There's a couple of prototype Ford GT(40)'s in the conference room right now. The week before it was a prototype Harley. I never hate coming to work!

That's some cool stuff Paul. Perhaps I can take a tour at some point in this engine building business.

Have you looked at the heads at all?

Kev

Any updates?

Kev

Any updates?

Kev

You're worse than a nagging wife, I tell ya! :)

I've been waiting three years for a "real" engine. I'm getting a little twitchy at the thought lol.

Kev (Impatient 19 year old:))

Yeah Kev, don't nag the free help. I've got a real job that comes first, plus Jay Leno called me on the phone an hour ago. He definitely takes priority! Anyway, I'll let you know when I get a chance to take a close look at them.

JAY LENO!

He wins:).

Kev

Jay is buying Paul's trailer :p

Jay wants Paul to build him a claimer SBC...and he keeps calling to see if it's done yet...and calling...and calling...

:D

Pat

(You didn't give Kev your phone number, did you?!?)

What did Jay Leno want to know Paul?

Geez... you people are tough on me! Doesn't everybody get a little anxious when they farm their work out?

Kev

So what are yins guys gonna do now? I'd look for a set of 062 vortecs at your local salvage yard and send them up to Paul.

We discussed the head situation via PM's and spend more money on another set of heads seems to be out of the budget.

I picked up a book while browsing at Borders last night that gave me a possible idea to save the camels. Dave Vizard has a book called "How to build max Performance Chevy Small Blocks on a Budget" and that caught my eye.

His idea of "budget" and Kev's is slightly different, but he did have a $650 junkyard dog combo that made 300 hp.
I question the true cost to duplicate this engine but what was interesting was his use of the old 30 degree intake valve grind trick. It has it's pro's and cons but isn't a new idea.

It improves low lift flow but Dave claims if you use his lower angles, widths and blending the port, the high lift flow isn't effected.
He says about 8 hp and a wider power band is the result but I'm seeing a way to save the sunk seats because it will effectively restore and raise the seat (using 2.02 valves.)

I'm going to study the dimensions and see if I can pull it off on these heads with stones without spending a lot of money for outside Serdi time and buying a special cutter.

Dave Vizard has a book called "How to build max Performance Chevy Small Blocks on a Budget" and that caught my eye.

I have that book. It's on my nightstand and I re-read it practically every night. I like how he says he "details" parts (ie. stock oil pump, but detailed), but doesn't say what that means, or he says to find out more -- go buy my other book on "X". Sounds like he either had a TON of stuff laying around, traded parts with other folks, or got some great deals on used parts at swap meets.

He also says Walker sets the standard for headers. Maybe when that book was printed.

If you were planning on tracking the number of hours you've spent on Kev's motor, what would the bill be for labor alone?

That's a pretty cool trick Mr. Wright. I have that book as well, it's pretty useful but I agree with Dave about Vizard's "detailing" comments.


I looked through the junkyard $650 buildup in that book. Looks like with a bigger cam, better intake manifold and a few other components that motor should work pretty well for what I want.

What's your opinion on forged or cast pistons. I want the motor to be reliable for the next few years and hopefully provide a decent base. I have the money available to go to forged, but is it a neccessity with what we're doing? Do I need to balance the assembly if we change pistons? What pistons are in there now?

Kev

Hi guys,

Thats a cool idea Paul. It still looks like a lot of work. If I were closer to you guys I would offer to machine the seats for you. I dont have a Serdi ( I think they are the best) but I do have other seat and guide machines that use a 3 angle carbide cutting system. I still "touch" the actuall seat with a Souix seat grinder to make sure. I use a carbide "bowl hog" (its a trade name, not my term) after cutting the seat to machine the transition into the port, it saves a lot of grinding.

With that being said, if hes really, really on a tight budget how about the possibility of turning the heads down on some used 2.02s to (just a guess) 2in. This would widen the margin and move the seat in the head out as well. I used to do this a lot, not much any more. This has always worked well for me, and its REAL cheap.
Someone mentioned oversize stem valves. I use a lot in .003 over. It does kill 2 birds with one stone. Fixes the guide and the stem for the same price.
It looks like you guys are in for an interesting adventure. If I can be of any help let me know.

Good Luck

Jeff

Sounds like he either had a TON of stuff laying around, traded parts with other folks, or got some great deals on used parts at swap meets.

I don't agree with Vizard on a some things especially his bragging how cheap everything is.

"Change back from a $20" for a machine shop to install screw in studs? Give me a break. I think they cut him a deal just to get mentioned in the book.

If you were planning on tracking the number of hours you've spent on Kev's motor, what would the bill be for labor alone?

If I charged Kev for my time he could go buy a ZZ4 crate engine.

What's your opinion on forged or cast pistons. I want the motor to be reliable for the next few years and hopefully provide a decent base. I have the money available to go to forged, but is it a neccessity with what we're doing? Do I need to balance the assembly if we change pistons? What pistons are in there now?

Stock cast pistons. If you can afford forged I'd say by all means go for it.
It will give me more leeway with piston to wall clearance.

TRW/SealedPower forged are pretty cheap, relatively heavy but durable. I have a set in my enduro. Bad news is it will exceed the $500 budget.
If you buy new pistons then you might as well go .030 over. Then you have bore and hone charges. There's no end to these kind of "might as well" upgrades.

I think $150 to balance the whole assembly is well worth the expense but that creeps the budget up even more.

Vizard says if we keep the bob weight within 50 grams of stock it should be OK. I do have an Ohaus beam scale and I'm willing to try but spending 8-12 hours of my time to save you $150 seems a little unfair.
Only you know what you can afford but I don't think you want to turn this thing into a $5,000 claimer engine.
I think we should stick as close as possible to the original $500 plan on the short block. The camel hump head work is going be on top of that. Hopefully we can fix them back up without spending a small fortune.


If I were closer to you guys I would offer to machine the seats for you. It looks like you guys are in for an interesting adventure. If I can be of any help let me know.


Hmmm...Indiana eh? Maybe a road trip is in order if we decide to take you up on that. You open on Saturdays?

I'm thinking cast pistons. If we need to get a different set to get the correct compression, that's okie dookie.

If we go forged, I think that avoiding boring the block would be best for budget considerations. Perhaps spending the extra couple dollars now on forged pistons would keep the engine together for another few years. In that case, forged may be a more intelligent long run decision.

We can balance the assembly for $150 through a competent machine shop. It's not worth your time to do it yourself Paul. Most people I've talked to said it's well worth the expense. I believe balancing should help keep everything together reliably up to 6300-6400 rpm. That sounds like a pretty reasonable rpm range for a 350 with no nitrous.

Stock z/28.... THANK YOU for the offer. Geez, the novaboarders are really coming together to help me out! This little community is great:).

Kev

We can balance the assembly for $150 through a competent machine shop. It's not worth your time to do it yourself Paul. Most people I've talked to said it's well worth the expense. I believe balancing should help keep everything together reliably up to 6300-6400 rpm.

Now that's a contradiction to what Vizard writes. He states that it's not worth the expense for a budget build-up.

(Just stirring the pot)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7973839033&category=33623

Hey, hey, how about some forged pistons?

Kev

Does Paul already know that the block does not require overbore?

That's a "good deal" on those #2256 pistons if there isn't anything wrong with them. Like the guy says those normally go for about $220. Keep in mind these aren't "light weight" forged pistons like JE's. They are measureably heavier (over 600 grams) than stock cast. Heavier won't effect steady state horspower but it will have a negative impact on dynamic performance.

Forged pistons expand greater than cast and much more than Hypereutectic's. A bore clearance that's just right for a cast piston (.0025), needs additional honing for forged (.0045) but might be too loose for Hyper's (.001).

Forged piston clearance can be .005" or maybe a little more and only have a cold slap that goes away once warm. Good rings are always essential. A Total Seal gapless second ring is a good idea with forged because they seal cold or hot.

I'm pretty sure the block does not need boring just a light hone and re-ring. I guess I only have 4 days and 19 hours to check the bore dimensions to be sure.

I only have 4 days and 19 hours to check the bore dimensions to be sure.

Is this the budget claimer build-off? :)

no, that's when Kev's bargain piston Ebay auction ends.

I think the "buy it now" price is pretty good. If you can get the bore dimensions sooner than that, I may just get it for that price.

Kev

If you can live with one decimal place it's 4"

Great!

Should I buy them and have them shipped to you? Or should you buy them and I'll pay you with the whole engine?

Kev

If you can live with one decimal place it's 4"

Paul, Paul, Paul....we need at LEAST 3 significant digits :rolleyes: :D

I was kidding ~ Paul W

Hi,

Paul, my weekends this time of year are are prettty tight. I do work a lot of late evenings though.

I certainly dont want to get involved in the purchase of parts or attempt change your opinions on anything, but I would be very leary of using those specific pistons with very much clearance, especially in a street engine.
I think FM lists the skirt clearance on these at .0015". I realize that this is the min. clearance, but in my opinion the max is about .003" in a "fresh" engine. I usually shoot for .0025" measured at 90 degress of pin at the pin center line, for a high perf street engine or moderate racing engine. I add about .0005" on circle track engines (a full" .001 on cyls 5 and 7). I dont think this piston expands very much. I have seen them installed in typical truck engines that were worked pretty hard at the .0015", with no scuffing.
I have also seen several engines that had noticeable "knock" even when warm at .004" +.

I have also seen a bunch of these pistons with cracked and broken skirts that were run with larger clearances. The quality control on the ones I have seen the last few years is excellent. If you have a bore that is on size (say 4.030") these will give you a consistant .0015" bore clearance, almost all I check are exact (atleast as well as I can measure).

I usually use torque plates and very fine finish with moly rings. It would be very rare (in my opinion) to find a "standard" bore block that would meet the tolerances you would desire. But you may have one.

One last consideration on the new pistons in a used bore is the ring land location. I alwys worry that the top ring will extend a bit farther and enter the top of the cyl usually were the ridge is.

I Use some pistons with .005" oversize so I can hone the cyls with a torque plate and still maintain the proper bore clearance. Personally I would contact FM about the Max clearance and expansion rates of this piston.

I agree most forged pistons (especially high perf) require more clearace than typical cast ones, but not all, and most of the time the clearance is built into the piston, not the cyl..

Just my opinions Im not trying to interefere.

These pistons are usually heavier than stock cast pistons. The good news is that there is usually plenty of material to remove. A couple of hours on a mill will usually let you lighten them quite a bit, possibly back to the original weight.

If these pistons are not "lightened" I usually have to weld material in the holes in the counterweight to balance the stock cast crank. I dont know if I agree with the "with in 50 grams" thing or not. If you knew the history of the engine and knew that it had no vibrations and had not had any reciprocating or rotating components changed I would think it would be ok as long as the piston was heavier than the ones it replaced. If it was lighter by 50 grams I may be a little concerend


If you do decide to bring the heads down I have Hines crankshaft balancer and if you can get the rods and pistons balanced with your Ohas scale, I can balance the crank. You will also need the weight of 1 set of rings (1 piston) and 1 rod brg (2 inserts) and of course the pin. I can balance the crank to within a couple tenths of a gram, but you would probably not notice the difference in a low rpm engine.


Good luck Guys

Jeff

Jeff,
I was sure you were wrong but I couldn't believe it until I looked up the spec for the 2256 Forged. You are correct on these particular pistons.
It does call out .0015" as minimum with .0025 preferred though severe duty can be greater. How much greater it does not say.

Although the piston skirt is precision machined to provide clearance with specified bores, some customers still desire to measure the piston and 'fit' them to the finished bore with a certain clearance. The piston size must be measured at a specific 'gage' location on the skirt to avoid incorrect readings due to tapers or special vertical profiles on the skirt. The measurement must be taken at 90 degrees from the piston pin at the location on the skirt as specified in the catalog and/or on the label (see illustration). After the piston size is determined, add the minimum clearance to the piston diameter. The resulting figure is the minimum size for finish honing the block bore. For normal operation, the maximum bore will be .001" larger. Severe service use may require additional clearance. All measurements should be taken at a temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit.
My Enduro is running similar pistons (4.060" TRW) with .005" clearance. It has no slap when cold (maybe I can't hear it) but in a 250 lap race with several red flag stops (no air flow to engine) it can get real hot. Tight clearances in a hot high compression engine can leave you left in the dust on a restart.

Old rule of thumb for forged piston clearance is "about" 1 thou per inch of bore but this depends heavily on the alloy used.

For example:
JE 2618 aluminum have a tensile strength of 64,000 psi and a coefficient of expansion of 12.9 micro in/in per degree F.
JE 4032 is weaker 55,000 psi but expands less 11.2 micro in/in per degree F.

A 4.00 2618 piston at 72F would measure 4.004" @ 375 while a 4.00" 4032 piston would measure 4.034".

This 2256 piston has been around since the eighties when it was a TRW piston which must have had a different alloy than now.
Federal Mogul has obviously improved the design and alloy expansion to have a forged piston happy with 2.5 thou clearance.

My experience with the TRW version was the pin clearance was not factory fitted to lower the cost. If you didn't check and "dust" the pin bores with slight hone the pins could gall and the engine would lock up..

I guess the bottom line on what piston to use depends on what the results of the existing bore measurement are. I think the current cast pistons with new rings will be fine at the 300 hp level and minimize extra work and expense.

I'm not eager to get into milling pistons, crank balancing, extensive honing, pin fitting etc. on this project. I'm trying hard to keep it from getting out of control. It was supposed to be a $500 short block.

Hi Paul,

I use quite a few "high end" pistons and some require as much as .007" with a norm. assperated carb. application. Turbos or superchargers require even greater clearances, but usually these pistons are different alloys with much higher expansion rates. Most usually have speciaal skirt profiles as well.


A lt of the FM pistons now come with a coated skirt and you really cant accuratly measure them. I have found some (counting the thickness of coating) are actually the bore size give or take a couple tenths, but they work great. Far less drag and so far (knock on wood) 0 scuffing. I try to use these when ever I can.

On the pin bores, I always hone the bores on all pistons I install on the rods. I think the honned finish provides a better oiling surface.

Another thing I always consider on forged piston applications is the actuall skirt contact on the cyl wall. Most of the high end pistons offer a grind that gives min skirt contact with the cyl walls thus less drag. These are noticebly "faster" but I have seen a few 4.00" bore blocks that would split the cyl with this type skirt. If the application require this type piston I carefully measure the wall thickness with an ultrasonic thickness tester.


Good Luck Guys

Jeff

Hi again Paul'

I felt I should add this.

The reason I try to use the minimum clearance that the application will allow is ring seal. I try very hard to obtain the very best ring seal available. Thats why I use torque plates and very fine cyl finishes (on high pref applications).

In my opinion if the piston "rocks" in the cyl the ring seal is compromised to a degree. I have seen what I beleive is fairly large gains in HP with keeping the clearance the tighest you can without causing an increase in drag (and obviously scuffing). Finding this diminsion is more or less a factor of experience. If I have doubts I always error on the larger side of specs.

I have seen very consistant drag race cars lose a couple hundreths (or more) of a second, by increasing the bore size a .001"! In a heads up race this is a disaster (about like my spelling).


The real hidden trick in piston clearance and ring gap is determening the max temp a piston will see under load, and adjust for that factor. Like I said that usually takes quite a bit of experience with the application and the components you are using.


Thanks

Jeff

Jeff, I agree with everything you said. I didn't realize the FM 2256 had such a tight clearance spec. I'm an idiot for assuming they still make 'em like they used to... (20 years ago!)

I'm guessing the bores are good and straight but I'd better put the Mitutoyo bore gauge in it before any money gets spent. If any of the bores are 4.004+ then it won't be worthwhile to buy them.
Just in case this thing is sloppier than I think what's your source for .005" over pistons? EngineTech?

Hi Paul,

I dont have a source for .005" pistons that are inexpensive. The ones I buy are are upper end forged ones, usually for racing or "numbers matching" applications. I use them mostly where the blocks have a large labor investment, like splayed caps bushed lifter bores etc..

I really never recomend that that someone replace a typical piston with anything less than a .030" if a customer is going to buy oversize pistons for a couple reasons.

The vast majority of blocks I run across need at least .030" to clean up (thats only .015 per side)

If someone has a block that may clean at less (say .010" or .020")
I would rather they go the .030 because if down the road they have a problem and the block is damaged (over heating , freezing- etc) it may be very hard to find a suitable core that will clean at less than .030".

I have the rotating assembly here now out of a fresh 454 (next to new std forgerd pistons) that the block frooze and broke. The customer has had no luck finding a "perfect" block like he started with. I recomended when he did this last summer that he go 030." but he bought a kit from summit in std because it saved the price of boring. If it was .030" I have several blocks here that we could use. It looks now like we will still have to use a block at .030" and buy new pistons as well . Not to mention changing the pistons on rods, balancing etc..
Thats my point on going a reasonable oversize to start with.

Another problem I mentioned earlier is even if the cyls are "pretty" good there is still the problem of the top ring getting into "virgin material" if you replace the existing pistons, without honning the cyls "straight". If you do this the cyls usually end at least .005 oversize at the bottom (honning the taper out basically) and you have way to much piston to wall clearance.

If your block is going to stay standard Paul, and unless it is "perfect" I would be tempted to hone it with a "ball hone" this leaves the cyls sowewhat tapered but the skirt clearance about right thus avoiding (the potential for) piston rock and knock. Kinda the lesser of two evils I guess.

I would also use a fairly course cyl wall finish (about 240) and a cast ring. I wont finish a worn cyl to a finer finish and I wont install a moly ring in a cyl that is not straight and very "smooth".

Paul, like I stated earlier I am not trying to interfere in your project or change your opinions, its just I do this day in day out (and have for abour 30 years) and see all kinds of situations arise that the average person dosent. I am just passing my observations along. I hope I am conveying my meassage properly.


Good Luck Guys.

Jeff

Someone took the buy it now price at $150. Guess I'll have to keep looking or just use some cast pistons. Most places I've read recommend cast in under 300 hp applications. If I don't exceed that with the motor being built, I'd like to further down the road. It never hurts to have a solid base. Hm...

Kev

Someone took the buy it now price at $150. Guess I'll have to keep looking or just use some cast pistons. Most places I've read recommend cast in under 300 hp applications. If I don't exceed that with the motor being built, I'd like to further down the road. It never hurts to have a solid base. Hm...

Kev

I've got cast pistons and (knock on wood) haven't had any problems. Just don't hit it with a 200hp shot.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1244&prmenbr=361

10.2:1.... that would be a nice ratio for a performance solid lifter camshaft.

Are cast pistons going to have the correct bore clearance?

Kev

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7974867420&category=33623

These are the same pistons for a couple dollars better. It's odd how they list them for 9.2:1 compression with 64 cc chambers and 5 cc valve reliefs. I calculated it out and came up with around 10.14:1 with proper quench.

Kev

Yah... let's do the cast piston thing if they fit correctly.

Paul, can you give me a mostly complete list of what all needs to be bought? I can then go shopping and try to see if we can find some deals.

There's a good start with main bearings, rod bearings, block plugs, pistons, rings, oil pump, and timing chain from Northern Auto.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=380

Off the top of my head we also need... shim head gaskets, ARP rod bolts, machine work, appropriate cam, valve springs and lifters, and I'm sure a bunch of other things.

We're looking at an rpm range of up to 6500. Converter will be a $200 Jegs 10" in house brand. I can get anywhere from 2400-2700 up to 3500-3800.

How's that sound so far?

Kev

Kev,
Forget about revving this engine that high. It's not neccessary or desireable.
Even brand new $4,000 ZZ4 350 355Hp crate engines have a 5,800 rpm redline. $500 is not going to get you a high compression 350+hp engine. If you want that, then you can go buy one.

I'm just helping you out, not putting you in the 12's at my expense.
I figure you might get a realistic 290-300hp..more than your lame 307 makes now. The bulk of the $500 is going into making it a good reliable engine. Somehow I have the nagging feeling (my inner voice of experience) that no matter how much work I put into it you'll go "whoop on it" and break it anyway. I don't need any grief from this favor.

Those heads of yours are my next biggest concern. I'd have to take a day or two off work to go to Indiana to use Jeff's equipment since he's not there on weekends. With my time, gas money, parts and motel the bottom line to fix these $200 heads would be the equivalent of new Vortec's which are much better flow wise. I like Jeff's idea of finding some used 2.02 valves to cut down on the lathe to 2.00". If anybody has a junk set with good stems to donate that will help.

I have one piston and rod out and the bore and piston looks good. The engine had regular 3,000 mile oil changes but I'm going to pull them all and carefully measure everything. Hold off until you hear back.

Okay, sounds good. Yes, I'm going to beat on this motor some. How about a 6000-6100 rpm limit? That should keep things together well enough.

I'm not ordering anything until you say so. I'm just throwing out suggestions.

Thank you 1,000,000 times over again. I could never have done anything close to what is being discussed without your experience and expertise. The use of your short block is also a huge help. Try to minimize your time spent and maximize the output and reliability. This is my first complete motor build (in a bench racing sense, as you're putting the motor together). I'm probably shooting higher than what you want. I still think we can probably make a little better than what you're expecting with the right camshaft and compression. 10.2:1 compression and something like Comp Xtreme Energy 268 Solid would be pretty good with .488/.501 lift. I know Dan_Lebrez has run it in an extremely steetable combo to 12.80's in his 64 Chevy II wagon.

Kev

Mine is a nearly stock .030 over 350 with hypereutetic pistons and "Wheeler" rods. Reconditioned stock rods with Chrome Moly rod bolts and cast crank. Assembly was balanced though.

Dan, If I might ask. How much did you spend on your engine and car to get into the 12's? How much does your car weigh?

My point being that unless the parameters are exactly the same you will get a different outcome. A 4th gen is heavier than a first gen...even a wagon.

A lot more than I intended to on my budget build. There is a guy around here that builds short blocks in his basement and takes them to swap meets to sell. He uses Pittsburgh Crankshaft Service to do all of his machining, if I remember correctly. I had a trade in block and crank that was a 2 bolt main. He had a truck 4 bolt that I wanted. He put in new pistons, rings bearings, freeze plugs, the Wheeler rods, the crank was supposedly turned. He would usually get about $600-650 for that setup. I added the balancing for an extra $150, a melling HV55 pump and a couple other odds and ends, which I think put it up to about $900 and he allowed $50 for the core. It was not decked. It may or may not have been align bored, but I'm not sure. He has a 55 gal drum of some caustic solution and that is how he "hot" tanks his parts. Here is the rest that is in the current setup:

New Vortec heads-machined valve guides - $700
New Crane 1.25" tool steel springs - $80
New rail rockers- about $65
stock used pushrods - $10
New Edelbrock rpm airgap intake - $239
New Heddman 1/5" headers - $100
Ebay-Rebuilt Holley 650 DP carb - $250
New Mallory HEI - $150
New Comp XS 268 Cam & Lifters - $250
Holly 110 gph fuel pump - $65
That get you up to about $2750
BTO 2004R OD and 2,200 stall converter - $1,650
The car weighs 3,200 pounds without me.
It has CE frame connectors, 4 leaf multi leaf springs, Slapper bars, 3.73 posi and 235X60X15 DRs. I run with full 2.25" dual exhaust using Summit turbo mufflers. Exhaust exits at rear bumper.

best 60 foot is 1.88
best 1/4 is 12.84
Best MPH is just over 107.

I think a 3,200 converter should tkae at least 2 tenths off of the 60 foot and 3 to 4 off of the 1/4. My exhasut is crimped way down going over the rear axle, that needs to be fixed too. i think with more refiinement (****$) 12.2s are not out of the question.

I have no dilusions that my car will run with Dan's. I was just making the point that it can be done with a pretty mild combo.

Kev

No delusions of running 12's???

I'm building an ultra-budget 350 bracket motor. This is for my '78 Nova. I'd like to run solidly into the 12's if possible. A moderator over on the nova message board is building it for me from a shortblock in his garage. I'd like to avoid boring the block to keep costs down. The block is low mileage with good wear.

Here's what I've got so far...
TH 350
3.73 8.5 Posi
Subframe connectors
Slapper Bars
295/60 14 M/T's

Converter will be decided when the engine goes in. Most likely 3500 to 4000 stall.

Here's the motor:
600 cfm Eddy
Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold
HEI
1.52 Crane Rockers
Ported 462 Fuelies with 1.94/1.60 valves and 63 cc chambers
GM Cast Steel Crank
Reconditioned 5.7" rods with ARP bolts

I'd like to run around 11:1 compression with a solid lifter camshaft in the .525 lift area.

Do you think I can get away with cast domed pistons for this application? No nitrous involved here. Hyper pistons would require boring the block for proper clearance, which I'm trying to avoid.

Kev

No delusions of running 12's???

Ahhh BUSTED!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

i'm thinkin' that whatever Paul helps you with... given time... you can blow it up...

I managed to grab enough oil pressure to feel comfortable racing it a bit. The lifters are ticking, the compression is poor, but the engine is pretty unkillable.


not to get into trouble here... but i'm thinkin' you have some excellent knowledge and experience helping you Kev... you should make your thoughts known one time and allow Paul to do what Paul is gonna do... i would be so thankfull someone with so much experience is helping me... i'd listen to him and do exactly as he says... if he says this... then THIS is THIS... not that.

dunno if this makes sense or not...



but then, what do i know ???

Somehow the phrase "gift horse" keeps coming to mind...

Time for a sanity check: You're getting a solid engine put together 'on the cheap' by someone with a lot of engine building knowledge. I guess I don't see how that can possibly be failing to meet your expectations.

Kev, I think Paul has gone far out of his way to accomodate you...if you want that practice to continue, I'd suggest some restraint on your part... Just my opinion.

Build me a motor that runs. I'll shut up now. I wrote that over on Chevytalk about a month ago, before we really started talking. I apologize for being overly ambitious. 300 "real life" horsepower will still be plenty more than my 307.

Kev (Humbled)

Kev, I have no doubt that if you want your engine to be capable of running solid 12's, that Paul can accommodate you. I don't think however that Paul can, or is willing to try it within the budget you and he have already agreed upon. He is putting a lot of his time and knowledge into this engine for you, and all he is asking from you is reimbursment for the cost of parts. Not a bad deal for you at all. Now, if what Paul is going to build for you is not going to suit what you want, then you need to discuss that with Paul, and figure on digging deeper into your wallet. I can tell from Paul's posts that he is getting a little perturbed with the attitude you have taken with the engine. You seem to be trying to get even more out of a very generous offer than you should be.

Paul, I hope I'm not stepping on your toes with my statements, but it seems that you have said the same things in a round-about way.

Randy

Kevin, you could always buy my motor and I'll work something out with Paul :)

Paul,
Kevin has demonstrated an ability to destroy just about any automobile parts that are put in front of him.

...............................Hmmmm, I think I knew somone like that, once.

Why not put together a sound, stock equivalent, short block and let him finish it off. No guarantees expected or implied. The goodwrench 350 supposedly puts out 260 HP with a stock cam, low performance heads, headers, a Holley and an Edelbrock.

That is the starting point in short block he should be expecting. If he wants to change heads, cam, etc, so be it. That is where the fun is anyway, if you have a sound short block. Send the camelhump heads back as delivered when he picks up the short block.

If Kevin wants to supply the cam so you can degree it, that might be a good idea, though.

I'm sorry. I kind of had a picture in my mind of a rowdy semi-strip motor at the beginning. Now I know that can't be had for $500.

Kev

How bout this, I'll trade you my "rowdy street/strip" 350 for Paul's meticulously measured/clearanced 350? :D

Matt

I'm sorry. I kind of had a picture in my mind of a rowdy semi-strip motor at the beginning. Now I know that can't be had for $500.

Kev



you'd be lucky if you can get a good job on a set of heads these days for $500 bucks


you'll be OK Kev... let the Master do his gig... i sure wish he was hookin' me up !!! you're a lucky guy. ;) :D

Hi.

This just my opinion on this probably not worth a whole lot.

This is just based on the way I have felt when Im in Pauls shoes. You really want what you are building (as an engine builder) to give outstanding service and performance for the user. If Paul was building this same engine for himself there would be much less pressure to meet someone elses expectations, (cost performance etc.). He could cut corners and take reasonable chances and if something fails or dosent perform to his liking its only his opinions that matter.

I have been in several situations similar to this and kind of felt sorry for Paul as I know the amount of pride he takes in his work. As do I, thats why I offered some possible help.

If I was building this for myself, with what I see to be the intended use, I would plan to spend around 1000.00. Thats with me already having the basic cores and some good used parts. I would not have to farm any work out either. Thats nothing fancy just a solid "stock" type motor.

If I were in Pauls postion. I would be thinking that I probably wont come out of this good no matter how cheap it is, how fast it goes, or how long it lasts..
Its kind of the nature of being an engine builder.

These are just my opinions based on my similar experiences, Paul my feel completly different. Like I said my opinions are probably not worth much.

Good Luck

Jeff

They should have this on the Dr. Phil show titled:

Nova-BOY gone BAD

I have an intake manifold, carb, dizzy, headers, and all the other stuff. I need a long block. If Paul needs to spend $1000 to make it work well, then that's okay. I feel like I've put way too much pressure on him. Your comments are valid and very applicable here Jeff.

Paul, if you don't want to do this because of my attitude, that's fine. I'll go retrieve my heads and figure something else out.

If the motor blows up, that's not on you. It's on me. The stuff that I've already blown up wasn't exactly anywhere near "high quality." The 307 has been pretty much sitting around for 13 years. I doubt the hillbilly's that put it together were overly exacting. The 283 was a $350 ebay special. Who knows how much precision was used when it went together. The transmission was another ebay "find." I've been burnt by doing things half assed a few too many times. I'm willing to pay more money to get it right (reliablity wise), even if it's not a 12 second thumper.

Kev

Heck, if you seen my thread the other day.........I am still trying to figure out how to make "brand new" stuff I buy, work and stay working! :D

I've been burnt by doing things half assed a few too many times.

...so you're ready to move up from half-assed to fully-assed? :D (Sorry, couldn't resist the jab!!)

Like I said, I just think it's time to take a step back and do a sanity check. Asking questions and helping set direction is fine, and I'm sure that Paul wants to get you the best setup he can manage under the constraints. I know you're anxious, but...there are 50 other folks on this board who would gladly take delivery of what Paul is building for you. Just keep things in perspective, that's all...

Going 12's is a great goal...partly because it takes more than just throwing parts together. Be patient, save up your money, listen, watch and learn, and you'll get there. Things in the real world don't come together as quickly or easily as they seem to on all those Discovery Channel shows.

Things in the real world don't come together as quickly or easily as they seem to on all those Discovery Channel shows.

Lol, isn't that the truth Patman. I'm 19... still working on patience. With time I'll get there.

Kev

I'm 19... still working on patience. With time I'll get there.
Kev
Heck Kev, I'm 35 and I'm still working on the same thing! Let me know when you get there, you might beat me!!

Randy (refuses to grow up, or old!!) ;)

Patience????I'm 38 years old and just had a weekend that I sweared more then I did when I was teens/twenies.. :o Was taking up deck boards (phillips head screws) that had been down for 15 years! Finding out where coon are getting in.

Perhaps I'd save everyone a lot of hassle by going this route...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33617&item=7975791136&rd=1

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7975155201&category=33617&sspagename=WDVW

I could also buy any number of aftermarket heads in bare castings within my budget. Depends if Paul wants to stick valves, retainers, locks, etc in. By the time all that is done it might be just as well to buy them assembled.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7975532515&category=33617

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7975708037&category=33617

That would save Paul the hassle of elaborate valve jobs and working with 30 year old "camel crap." I bet if I threw them on ebay I could get more out of them then I paid for them.

Kev

Perhaps I'd save everyone a lot of hassle by going this route...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33617&item=7975791136&rd=1

That wouldn't work. You'd be causing more of a hassle....because I want them. :D

Matt

i'm thinkin' ya need ta get into the 9's... but then ya need ta have a good stereo for that don't ya ???


Johnny (number 9, number 9,number 9) REVOLUTION ;)

Johnny... that made no sense what-so-ever. Go to bed now:) lol.

Kev

well ya need ta listen to the white album.... yer a young man... listen and learn. years from now you can teach/remind us.

OH OH OH! I knew that sounded familiar!

Kev (Just needed a little reminder:))

Kev, i may be an Old Fart... but i'm not stale yet.






Johnny (the force is with me) watch it... i can aim at ya ;)

Kev, i may be an Old Fart... but i'm not stale yet.
You got evidence to back that up??? :D

Randy (didn't know it either, but it was from some album) ;)

There ya go Ktown...


CAMEL CRAP ??? i KNOW that ain't just regular poopies... that's infamous smelly stuff.




Johnny (ya can't go wrong) with the tried and true ;)

Those heads of yours are my next biggest concern. I'd have to take a day or two off work to go to Indiana to use Jeff's equipment since he's not there on weekends. With my time, gas money, parts and motel the bottom line to fix these $200 heads would be the equivalent of new Vortec's which are much better flow wise. I like Jeff's idea of finding some used 2.02 valves to cut down on the lathe to 2.00". If anybody has a junk set with good stems to donate that will help.

I was also lectured on "Camel Crap" via PM from Paul himself.

Kev

GOOD !!!


but don't take it out of context. what was good yesterday, is still good today in the light of what can STILL be done with them.



Johnny (an old diamond) is still valuable today... provided it is of good quality.

Kev, me too... i'd like ta see ya get into the low 12's... even if it's just a learning period... you deserve it.


i wish you the best also... and i agree with the others too... Kev, listen to Paul... he didn't fall off the truck yesterday... what he tells you... he has reasons for it. regardless of what anyone says... HE'S the Master here.


Kev, you're in GOOD hands. let the hands mold the clay... i bet you'll never regret it.

Can new seats be installed in camel crap heads?
I take it that is extensive work?

I'm prepared to buy these heads right here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7976161995&category=33617

Over $400 for camel crap heads or $500 for new World heads. I think Paul will be pleased to save some time on the old fuelies. Any thoughts?

Kev

I'm prepared to buy these heads right here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7976161995&category=33617

Over $400 for camel crap heads or $500 for new World heads. I think Paul will be pleased to save some time on the old fuelies. Any thoughts?

Kev

If it were me, I'd put that money into the bottom end and just have Paul build me a great short-block. Just my $.02.

I need heads one way or the other. $200 for the camel humps + $200 to get them redone by paul = $400.

Or

$500 for the s/r torquers.

Kev (gotta spend some dough either way)

Isn't the first $200 into the Camel hump heads already spent, or can you get that back?

The internet deal looks pretty good, but b/4 you go with it make sure you know exactly what the freight will cost you. If they are coming from the West Coast, it will not be cheap.

Paul, If you read this, what exactly would you suggest be done to the heads he already has, to get not a great set of heads, but something he could use for a few months if he decided to put his money into the short block instead.

I have the money for the heads now and can pay for the shortblock in two weeks. I have plenty of money coming in, I'm just trying not to spend my entire summer income on the project. Paul quoted me $200 to get the correct valves, retainers, locks, springs, etc. That requires him to either use a machine shop in Indiana or spend a million hours sitting on his bench grinding at the camel humps. I'm really trying to make this easy for both of us.

I'll put the camelhumps on ebay and probably get $300 out of them.

The World heads are coming from Indiana.

Kev

I got the heads!!!

Now you can relax Paul. The mission is a little easier. If you could PM me your address, I'll have them shipped up there to your door. I can bring the camel humps back for resale when I pick the motor up.

Kev

How soon do the heads need to get up there?

those world s/r heads are ok but the s/r stands for stock replacement. i think they were just fuelie clones with some added material.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/41598/index4.html

Compare the S/R's to the 462 Camel humps.
http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/p104558_image_small.jpghttp://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/p104406_image_small.jpg
Better numbers all the way around, especially on the exhaust side. These heads have screw in studs, guide plates, correct valve springs, new stainless valves and the whole nine yards. I would have paid about the same or a little more for a 40 year old head that flows less if I would have had the camel humps done. Buying these heads means that Paul can stop worrying about trying to mess around with those old junk heads with the sunk seats and small valves.

Dan, if Paul gives me his address I'll have them shipped right to his front door.

Kev

Hi,

I must agree, the camel hump heads deserve a lot more repect than the "crap" tag. These heads are still winning races in stock and super stock on a regular basis. Take a look sometime at how much power these make on these type cars. Its incredible, and to think that they were designed almost 50 years ago!.

Disrespecting these heads is like kicking your old dog, in my opinion.

Jeff

Disrespecting these heads is like kicking your old dog, in my opinion.

That's the only way my old dog moves. :D

i have a VERY nice set of 291's... ported in the early '80's. but the valves are so close together the shop i had 'em in a while back didn't want to risk putting ex seats in them. i dunno if it's the HEADS... or the shop.

before i assy my engine... i'll be running my heads down to the LA area and have a Hi-Po Machine shop look at them...

i've ran these before and i know the difference they made on my engine.


68CC 1.940 & 1.625's


Johnny (i'll take the Camel "Crap") if you guys don't like 'em ;)

Even though the 292 had the "two hump" casting mark they weren't the same head as the 461. The 292 castings were never used on a production vehicle. These heads were specially cast between 1971 and 1974 for racing but were available to the public over the counter.
According to Bill Jenkins, they cast about 100 of the 73 version and most were used in Nascar but eventually developed cracks. For short runs they worked fine. HOWEVER here's a quote from Bill's book:

...we wind up altering, welding, machining or grinding on nearly every square inch of the head

When you reminice about the good old days you have to remember what they had to do to set those records. In fact the first Pro Stockers used to run tens. That's slow by todays standards where street cars can run eights.
The only time you'd run a camel hump head in pro racing these days is if the rules required it.

In fact Pro Stockers used to run tens. That's slow by todays standards where street cars can run eights.

Wasn't that back when they still had to run a small block and max out at something like 330ci or there abouts? How many small block cars running less then 330ci are running in the tens today, I would suspect not to darn many? Not tying to argue at all with you Paul as you have WAY more experence but to compair the Pro stockers of today with 500ci motors to the pro stockers of yesterday with their 330ci motors is like compairing apples to oranges...it just cannot be done.

331 inches in a 2100 lb Vega. You could run a bigger engine in a heavier car. Don't kid yourself that the sixties/seventies were the height of engine technology. Even in the eighties we were dominating Trans Am racing with single 4 barrel 310 cubic inch engines that made more power and over a wider rpm range than Bill's 8 barrel tunnel ram 331" drag engines did ten years earlier.

These old heads were great in their day because that's all that was available. Technology has moved on to the point that a production truck head with 1.94" intakes flows much more air than a modified 461 camel hump with 2.02" valves.

331 inches in a 2100 lb Vega. You could run a bigger engine in a heavier car. Don't kid yourself that the sixties/seventies were the height of engine technology.


Ahhh I didn't know there was a weight restriction involved I was under the belief(mistakeningly) that 331 was the cube limit not that it was tied into the weight of the car.

And I am not kidding myself. IMO the performance cars they they are building today are way better cars then they ever built back in the day. Not only do they have HUGE HP numbers. (many of them make more power then most if not all of the muscle cars ever did) but they can stop, turn, and get decent gas mileage to boot.

I guess for some of us its the nostalgia involoved with some of these parts. Sure other parts car make more HP but those "New" parts dont have the history that the old factory HP parts do. So sometimes I guess for some of us it is worth a little HP to be able to have the cars of yesterday with fuelie heads, or camel hump heads, or a 30-30 Duntov cam, or whatever the part in question is. BUT that is just my opinion. :)

There's a saying: "the older I get, the better it was."
My point is the legendary nostalgia of the camel humps peformance is greater than the reality. I have stacks of those heads. I'm not about to cut weld and grind to try and get 240 cfm out of them. It's much better to buy a new a Dart, Sportsman II or Topline than waste a nickle on these old dogs. I don't kick old dogs but if they can't run with the big dogs then they stay on the porch.

Here's another quote from Bill Jenkins 1976 book that showed the vast difference between the 292 "turbo" competition head and the new aftermarket heads just coming on the market:
We undertook a series of tests of which the most meaningful was an A-B comparison between the Brownfield heads and a set of 292 heads. Each set of heads had out of the box ports with only a good competition valve job, equalized combustion chambers, and only some slight port matching to the manifold. Admittedly the 292 is all that charming with only this little bit of work but the Brownfield heads had not been worked over to any greater degree. We verified under these stark conditions, on a four-barrel engine, the Brownfield heads showed a power increase of 51 horses over the 292 heads
Sucessful racers don't chose parts on nostalgia or emotion.
Bill could see the writing on the wall and eventually abandoned the camel humps for aftermarket heads.

Hi,

I too have lot of the old double hump heads around, but that isnt the reason I think they deserve a little respect.

Besides their history, there are still cars that are very fast using them today.
Off the top of my head I know of several eary Camaros with 327s and 302s that run in the low 10s in leagal "stock" trim. In 2900-3200 lb car that is very impressive to me.

I am not implying that these heads are comparable to later heads in air flow or durability, but that dosent earn them the designation of "crap" in my opinion.

I have seen a lot of aftermarket heads that I would consider as "crap". The quality control on most of these replacement heads leaves a lot to be desired.
I use a lot of these heads and I send alot back.

A little respect is all Iam talking about.

As far as the early "turbo" head is conserned, I was lucky enough to see a couple of the early sets with the same external casting as the 492s (late double humps) one set was on Jenkins car itself. The other set was beleive it or not at Bob Gliddens shop. Both sets were heavily welded and ported. Its kinda neat remembering the old days, but Im not saying that the tech. was near as advanced as it is now, but you have to give credit were credit is due.

If you rember the 292 casting was replaced with the bow tie, and in my opinion the 292 was a superior head. Many racers still desire the 292.

I have several aftermarket heads here now that were new this year and have allready failed. Valve seats became lose In one, and the others cracked in the intake port. They arnt all trouble free.

Given the choice I would much rather have an aftermarket casting, but that dosent make the early heads crap in my opinion.

Jeff

I meant comparative "crap." My old camel humps needed a lot of work. The aftermarkets are definately better in this case. Same money, better head, that's the bottom line.

Kev

I think your much better off.

i totally agree in the value of todays heads versus re building some old heads.
i have sold off all of my fuelies, except a set of 461 x heads that have 2.02 int and 1.6 ex. they still need work and i know that i will never do anything with them. so they sit in my garage.
but they did do wonders back in the late eighties.
i just would have gotten something other than s/r heads. but still a good buck spent.

Hi,

Nerco, the 461x heads are still highly sought after by stock class racers if they are not modified. That was probably the "best" double hump ever. I still have a couple sets that are untouched that I have kept for stocker that I probably will never build.

Thanks

Jeff

Was chevy hi-performance trying to make the old school heads look bad or something? The heads they tested did not have the big 2.02/1.6 valves nor were they the better X castings. GM even still sells the 492 casting brand new with the big valves yet it didnt get tested.

Those are the same heads that I have (462 casting). They are some of the more common fuelie heads. The 2.02 valved heads don't really flow much better.

Kev

Hi,

Nerco, the 461x heads are still highly sought after by stock class racers if they are not modified. That was probably the "best" double hump ever. I still have a couple sets that are untouched that I have kept for stocker that I probably will never build.

Thanks

Jeff

yea i know they are good heads. i had them on a 327 and they pushed over 400 hp compared to the crappy 1.94 462 i had. they need seats guides who knows what else.
i figured they are good heads maybe one day when im really old like some old coots on this board i may need them for something original.

Hey Paul,
Did you have any luck with those domed cast pistons on clearance?

The S/R's went in the mail today through UPS ground, expect them at your door in a couple days.

Kev

Hey Paul,
Did you have any luck with those domed cast pistons on clearance?

Kev

so what kinda pistons you lookin' at Guys, thought you were kinda leanin' towards flat-tops... maybe a nice set of Domes would get ya into the 12's... whatchu been thinnin' Paul ???


;) :) :)

Paul and I spoke on the phone for the first time the other day. He was very insightful...

Paul saw some 11:1 (with 64 cc heads) cast pistons on a clearance sheet he got through Roush. I think the pistons are about 5 cc domes. They are discontinued, but claim to be good for 450 horsepower and 7500 rpm. He said they were $75 for the set.

We're leaning towards some reconditioned connecting rods with ARP bolts for $110 from Competition Products (I think).

Paul said he's going to cc everything out and do some cranking compression calculations before determining a camshaft appropriate for running on pump gas. I bet it will be a little on the nasty side.

Looks like the rowdy street/strip motor is possible with some new heads and a little bit of thinking:).

Kev

Kev, $75.00 for pistons is a good deal... i hope they work out for ya. i know a lot of times domed pistons may need a bit of machining to get 'em right for a set of particular heads... if Paul can get 'em for ya for the cost he said... including the machining... that money wouldn't even cover the machine costs... i'd say that'd be like getting them for free.


if Paul can get 'em... MAN !! he's hookin' you up !!


WAY TO GO PAUL !!

i hope it all works out Kev, you deserve a BARN-BURNER !!!

Paul,

The heads should be on your door step tomorrow or Wednesday.

Anything else going on? Haven't heard from you in a week or so.

kev

I'll look for them. I can use the boxes to forward your old heads to the new owner. Email me the address and I'll send them off.

I read all the post and want to ask a few questions.

But first a comment on the camel humps. Heads have come a long way since '70. Compared to the way head flow now they are the weak link in any set-up. To start a project with them now is a waste of HP. There are plenty of low cost heads on the market.

1) Why are you wanting a 11.5 or 12.0 compression ratio? I would think you would want no more than 10.5 on a carb engine and pump gas. I know you can use the cam to bleed off but why do it?

2) Have you thought about a trans brake? A cam in the 240-250 dur. range will be rough on the street with an automatic. But a brake will let you leave the line better.


3)Are you running power brakes? You need to think about that with your cam choice.

Lastly don't rule out nitrous with cast pistons. You can run a 100hp shot with a good tune easily. Retard timing and good gas will save you. But your converter will cost more.

I have manual brakes, so that isn't an issue. I'd like to run in the neighborhood of 10.5:1 or so. A transbrake is a possibility at some point if the launches seem a little soft. With a 3500 converter it shouldn't be too soggy at the bottom end.

Kev

If you don't have one already, make sure to pickup a tranny cooler with that convertor.

I have a pretty big one out of a two ton chevy stake body truck.

Kev

I have a pretty big one out of a two ton chevy stake body truck.

Kev

Your gonna have to pull a trailer to carry the tranny cooler :D

Junkyards are excellent sources for tranny coolers! I didn't even need to use pipe adapters or anything, just had to route some rubber hose and it worked perfect.

Kev (It's not THAT big lol)

Make sure the rubber hose is rated for the pressure...or it will burst. Ask me how I know :eek:

Make sure the rubber hose is rated for the pressure...or it will burst. Ask me how I know :eek:

How do you know? :D

Matt (also has a tranny cooler in front of rad with rubber hoses)

So what's the latest status of the PW Claimer motor?

I thought Kev was the impatient one! I've got three race cars needing attention plus a job, a wife and two kids. The pistons and rods were ordered as noted in another thread. The block is being disassembled, cleaned and prepped.

Fast ~ Good ~ Cheap... pick any two. Kev already picked Cheap.

I thought Kev was the impatient one! I've got three race cars needing attention plus a job, a wife and two kids. The pistons and rods were ordered as noted in another thread. The block is being disassembled, cleaned and prepped.

Fast ~ Good ~ Cheap... pick any two. Kev already picked Cheap.

Back in college, I had many "fast and good" ones...oh wait, you're talking about the motor ain't ya?!?! :D

Quote from one of my Univ. of Pittsburgh profs talking about a comp sci project we had to turn in:

"Sex is like documentation. When it's good it's good. When it's bad, it's better than nothing."
:D :D :D

How about relatively fast, pretty good, and cheap enough for me to afford:).

Kev

Everyone is still talking about the motor progress ... right :D ... just following the thread with interest and trying to keep things straight ... :) ;) .

Kev,
Good news and bad news.
The pistons, bearings and rods arrived. It all looks good. these clearance pistons have been on the shelf for a while, in fact they were manufactured well into the last century! I'm not even sure "Ohio Piston" company is still around. Nice looking pistons, though. It's tempting to have them coated with antifriction and heat barrier coatings to keep them nice (no more left), but that would blow the budget.

Speaking of Ohio.... I've just been assigned to a secret project there for three weeks. I'm leaving this weekend so I won't be able to do anything on the engine for a bit. Better keep the 307 alive. What do I do with these Camel humps? If you want them shipped somewhere, I need an address today.
Other option is to leave them here at work and Dan can pick them up when he passes through next.

Sorry... but this is my life. I have to be ready on a moments notice to parachute into remote areas.

Kev,
Good news and bad news.
The pistons, bearings and rods arrived. It all looks good. these clearance pistons have been on the shelf for a while, in fact they were manufactured well into the last century! I'm not even sure "Ohio Piston" company is still around. Nice looking pistons, though. It's tempting to have them coated with antifriction and heat barrier coatings to keep them nice (no more left), but that would blow the budget.

Speaking of Ohio.... I've just been assigned to a secret project there for three weeks. I'm leaving this weekend so I won't be able to do anything on the engine for a bit. Better keep the 307 alive. What do I do with these Camel humps? If you want them shipped somewhere, I need an address today.
Other option is to leave them here at work and Dan can pick them up when he passes through next.

Sorry... but this is my life. I have to be ready on a moments notice to parachute into remote areas.


Will you be near Pittsburgh?

Will you be near Pittsburgh?

Marion, Ohio.

Marion, Ohio.

LOL, ok, too far to invite ya over for dinner :) My wife makes the best steaks I've ever had!!!

The deal I had going for the camel humps didn't work out. No buyer as of yet. I can wait a little while before I put them on ebay, so don't worry about it.

Have fun in Ohio!

Kev

Hi guys.

I think Ohio pistons is out of buis.. The were manufactured in indy (just down the road from me). There was Ohio, Ertel, and Nylen all the same basic parts jst different names. If you need a spare you may try looking under one of the other names. Dynagear bought them a while back and then Dynagear had problems.

I have used hundreds of these pistons over thr years and they are very good replacement type pistons, they are just kinda heavy.

I still have several sets around.


Good luck guys
Jeff

Hmmmm, Marion. Project for Honda?

Hmmmm, Marion. Project for Honda?

Honda is in Marysville. I'll be working in an Amish Buggy factory.

Yea, maybe, but I'll bet it will be for their performance division. Nothing better than a hot rod bugy, IMO.

Yea, maybe, but I'll bet it will be for their performance division. Nothing better than a hot rod bugy, IMO.

I don't wanna be around a few hours after whatever they gave the horse for "performance improvements" comes back out.

If Kev will be around to clean it up, then maybe it'd be worthwhile. :D

I've been offered this camshaft from a close friend for a minimal amount of money... it was put in a motor and pulled out without use. He owes me a favor, I might be able to get it for free.

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=113841&lvl=2&prt=5

Just a thought for future reference.

Kev

Might be a little hot for a daily driver.
I'd suspect a 1,000 RPM idle or very close to it.
Probably need at least a 2,500 stall converter.

Eh, I don't go very far with it. Still have the truck and neon if I need to go on long trips.

Kev

It will probably run very nicely at the upper rpms but something else to consider is the .024 valve lash. That is not as much as the old factory Z/28 cams (.030) but it will be pretty loud and require fairly constant monitoring, again for a street driven car.

My current cam is .016 hot lash. With an easy connection for my remote starter switch on my external starter relay, I can adjust the valves in about 25-30 minutes.

I took another look at the specs, seems to indicate not too much there below 3,000 RPM. Better make that a 3,200 stall converter.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4746&prmenbr=361

:)

ill give my opinion and then ill tell you why.
my opinion: that cam is too big for a street 350

why: i own a 78 malibu now that used to be my cousins. it had 3 diff engines in it last year. the first one was a 350ci with an xe 284, which is 240/246 @.050. it had 10:1 comp and sportsman II heads with ALL the trimmings. it also had a 10" 3000-3500 stall. on my g-tech it ran a 5.4 0-60 with 3.73 posi. my cousin thought switching everything over to a standard bore 400 block would really liven it up so we did that and that got it a 5.2 0-60 but the bottom line is it sucked to drive. it guzzled gas, didnt smooth out til about 2000 rpm, and was slower than my 383 which purred at idle and ran a 5.0 0-60. out of frustration he duplicated my combo the best he could. he put in a summit 224/234 @.050 cam and switched to a 12" holeshot 2200 converter. his car improved in every single way BUT he ran out of money doing this research and sold the car to me. it now runs 4.9 0-60, drives like stock and only idles rough for about the first 2 or 3 minutes. the car is now truly a joy to drive.

bottom line: he found out the hard way that wilder is not always better. i suspect kev is about to find out the same thing. but good luck anyways.

Okay, I guess it's too big. Just letting you know that it was available at a discount rate.

Kev

Hey Kev, here's your motor:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7980138232&rd=1

Hey Kev, here's your motor:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7980138232&rd=1

Nice heads :cool:

Looks like a "spray bomb" rebuild.

No doubt there. I saw it and thought of Kev and this thread and just posted it for no particular reason other than to add to the list of "what ifs".

Two thoughts for you Paul...

1) Would you like me to pull the 307 and bring it up to you when we're ready to get the motor going? That way we'll have rockers, valve covers, intake manifold, carb, fuel pump, water pump, headers etc etc.

2) Can we order up one of those spiffy oil pans? A floor jack went through mine and it looks beat up. My dad beat it out and welded it back up, but I think it has reduced capacity lol. For very minimal money we can get one with crank scrapers, trap doors, windage trays and all that other good stuff...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7970941336&category=38657&sspagename=WD1V

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38657&item=7980703775&rd=1

There's a bunch of different ones...

Kev, I got your phone message. I'm pretty much out of contact until I get back and have limited access to the internet out here in Un-Disclosed Location, Ohio.

To answer you question
The 350 block is 78 Gen 1 style with 2 pc seal and drivers side dipstick.

You can send me whatever parts need to be installed but I don't want the pile to grow too big. My space is getting very limited and with me out here in Egypt I can't make more room. Wait until I get back before you send any thing. My wife will blow a gasket if tons of parts start showing up. I don't need your headers. My run in stand has a set.

Cheers.

I meant when it's actually time to finish the installation and break the motor in. I could literally take my 307 up to Michigan in the truck and we could disassemble the 307 and assemble the rest of the 350 with all necessary pieces.

Kev

Hey Paul,

I have a set of hyd lifters that my dad used for about 700 miles on his old cam. Are these acceptable to use with my motor?

Don't bother buying a timing chain set, I have an edelbrock double roller sitting at home.

Kev

Hey Paul,

I have a set of hyd lifters that my dad used for about 700 miles on his old cam. Are these acceptable to use with my motor?

Don't bother buying a timing chain set, I have an edelbrock double roller sitting at home.

Kev

I believe they can only be reused if they were kept in order AND you are putting them on the same cam they were broke in on. If the cam you are planning on using them on is new (or a different one) then I am pretty sure you will NOT want to use them. That is a sure fire way to get cam lobe failure. Just my 2 cents :)

I believe they can only be reused if they were kept in order AND you are putting them on the same cam they were broke in on. If the cam you are planning on using them on is new (or a different one) then I am pretty sure you will NOT want to use them. That is a sure fire way to get cam lobe failure. Just my 2 cents :)

That's not 2 cents worth, that's what WILL happen if you re-use lifters on a different cam. If you have a roller cam, you can re-use the lifters though.

That's not 2 cents worth, that's what WILL happen if you re-use lifters on a different cam. If you have a roller cam, you can re-use the lifters though.


Yep roller cams are the only exception to the rule on reusing used lifters on a new cam.....Lifters are cheap.....get a new set. PAW sells their heavy duty Hydraulic ones for 49.92 a set. While their solid lifters go for 63.20 a set.

Heck if you want brand name they sell Crane cams hydraulics for 74.95 and solids for 87.95 so even the brand name parts are not that expensive. Way cheaper than having to buy a new cam AND a set of lifters after the first one get trashed by used lifters. PLUS all of the BS involved with swapping the cam and lifters out right after building the motor and having to make sure all of the metal from the cam/lifters is out of the motor. Again just my 2 cents. :)

Ah... that's right. I forgot you couldn't reuse them. I think I remember reading in Vizard's max performance budget chevy book that you can polish down the top of the lifters to make them reuseable. I'll look it up tonight...

Kev

Kev, I just wouldn't risk it with re-working used lifters for all the more new lifters cost. You still want these coil springs and intake bolts or what?

Yah, I'll just get a new set. I was more interested in what he did to make them reuseable.

The coil springs will probably be useful for the more door nova. Bring them along next time we're at the track or wherever.

Kev

PS, I was down your way the other night with one of my new lady friends. I almost thought to call you up, but it was kinda late. I was in West Mifflin past the mall on Lebanon Church Road. How far are you from there?

Yah, I'll just get a new set. I was more interested in what he did to make them reuseable.

The coil springs will probably be useful for the more door nova. Bring them along next time we're at the track or wherever.

Kev

PS, I was down your way the other night with one of my new lady friends. I almost thought to call you up, but it was kinda late. I was in West Mifflin past the mall on Lebanon Church Road. How far are you from there?

About 10 minutes with the traffic lights, etc.

Hey Paul,

I have a set of hyd lifters that my dad used for about 700 miles on his old cam. Are these acceptable to use with my motor?

Don't bother buying a timing chain set, I have an edelbrock double roller sitting at home.

Kev

You shouldn't attempt to re-use lifters on a cam that have been broken in on another cam. The bottom of a flat tappet is not actually flat. It's spherical or "crowned", with a radius of about 30". That means that the roundness of the lifter is not readily apparent but it's there.

Imagine a steel ball 5 feet in diameter. Then punch out a lifter size plug from that ball. The outside end of that piece of steel is rounded to a 30" radius.
When you sand the bottom you are removing the radius. See attached pic. The cam lobe also has a slight taper across the face.

The round bottom on the tapered cam lobe is what causes the lifter to spin which extends cam wear. Dave Vizard is risking premature cam wear by polishing lifters on a flat surface. I've seen other experts mistakenly sand their "flat tappets" flat and then blame the cam manufacturer for early wear out.

If you have a timing chain then send it off to my home address. I don't want to be held up waiting for parts when I get back.

How soon are you going to be back in Michigan? Is there any other parts you need? If you want, I can tear down the 307 and send you the various parts. Any idea how long it's going to take to put it all together?

Kev, I'm entered in a circle track race on July 2nd. Hopefully, I'll be back in time for that but I have to travel when and where my employer requires. Keep you car running for now. If you plan on racing your Dad and DriveWFO you better be thinking about getting your car to hook up.

I got that part checked out already...

295/60 14 Mickey Thompson Indy Profile SS tires
Subframe connectors
Slapper bars
New leaf springs
Poly bushings

Kev

I got that part checked out already...

295/60 14 Mickey Thompson Indy Profile SS tires
Subframe connectors
Slapper bars
New leaf springs
Poly bushings

Kev

That sounds like the setup I had on an old 63 Econoline when I was 19. Good luck.

Kev, I'll give ya any setup tips I can (for hooking the tires up).

If Paul is building you a fairly stout motor, you may need to invest in some suspension components to plant the power. I'd say the largest bang-for-your-buck purchase are slicks.

I was able to spin my ET Streets out of the hole with my previous cam. And I'm running Caltracs, Trick Springs, Koni SPA-1s, subframe connectors, and an 8pt roll bar tied to the frame/subframe. The Caltracs give you the adjustments you need to plant the power. Heck, my last time at the track with the wiped cam lobe, I pulled my best-ever 60' time with a 1.82, and that was just from playing around with the Caltrac setup. I'm probably gonna go with the Rancho 9000 externably adjustable rear shocks here shortly.

I guess it's all what you plan on doing with your Nova.

Always gotta remember there are more compromises with my car than yours Dave. It's still gotta be able to get me to where I need to go. You're now just a trailer baby :p .

Cal tracs might be a good idea at some point. I bet my dad can build me a set with some decent drawings.

Kev

Always gotta remember there are more compromises with my car than yours Dave. It's still gotta be able to get me to where I need to go. You're now just a trailer baby :p .

Cal tracs might be a good idea at some point. I bet my dad can build me a set with some decent drawings.

Kev

Yeah, yeah, I hear ya!

Hey Dave,
Got that cam in there yet?

Hey Dave,
Got that cam in there yet?

Yes, now I need to dial-in my carb again for the new setup. Hoping to run Thursday night.

I'd come down and watch if I wasn't going to the beach:):):):):):).

Kev

I'd come down and watch if I wasn't going to the beach:):):):):):).

Kev

Hey, it's not like yer rubbing it in :beat:

Paul, I sent you the timing chain set to your home address via US postal service today. Should be there on Thursday. Your PM box is full.

Kev

Paul is taking my s/r torquers apart to port them soon. This motor is gonna be one heck of a thumper for a $500 motor!!!

Kev (Just thought I'd share my excitement:))

Paul is taking my s/r torquers apart to port them soon. This motor is gonna be one heck of a thumper for a $500 motor!!!

Kev (Just thought I'd share my excitement:))

Cool! Can't wait for you to get the new motor put in :)

Uhh...it's a $600 engine. You wanted 11:1 pistons, remember?
As far as as the porting goes I'm thinking about flow testing those camel humps and the WP heads to prove my point that the old heads are not as good as the new heads by a wide margin. I'll post the results but it may be a few weeks. Now go take a cold shower.

Paul, are you going to break-in the engine on your test stand or is he taking it home to break-in once it's installed in his car?

I believe he's going to break it in at his place. No need for me to blow it up on break in.

Kev

Oh, I definitely plan on breaking in the engine and testing it out for oil pressure, compression, leakdown etc.. I don't need any headaches.

So far the off shore betting odds are 10 to 1 that Kev blows it up anyway.

Oh, I definitely plan on breaking in the engine and testing it out for oil pressure, compression, leakdown etc.. I don't need any headaches.

So far the off shore betting odds are 10 to 1 that Kev blows it up anyway.

The odds have dropped and are now 2 to 1 out in Vegas. This is like playing Craps...do ya bet on him to keep it running, or do ya bet on him grenading it? :D

Hey, the 307 is still alive! I've only actually killed one motor. Who knows what that was all about, the 283 developed a cracked block!

Geez, you guys have NEVER broken something on your cars before? And most of you sissies don't even drive your cars (ahem* Dave!). I probably put more miles on my car this past weekend than many of you accumulate in an entire year.

Kev (Sorry, had to rant :) )

Kev, regardless of a 600 dollar engine or a 60,000 dollar engine... if it's taken beyond its capabilities... it'll break.

i've broke a couple too... don't sweat it... we're only baggin' on ya.

i think it GREAT Paul is doing what he's doing for ya... and i am really looking forward to hearing how happy you are... also i'm anxiously awaiting Pauls flow numbers on the Camels....

Sure, I drive my car! It goes out for a cruise weekly, but you're right, it's mostly off the trailer, into the staging lanes, down the track, back the return road, into the pits, back to the staging lanes, down the track,...back on the trailer. :)

That will be a very interesting comparison Paul. Are you going to flow them before you port the s/r's or after? I don't think it would be a valid test if you added an extra 10 cfm to the s/r's. Even though the Camels aren't in the best of shape, I bet they are a fairly accurate depiction of a lot of old fuelies sitting on peoples shelves.

By the way, this thread has gone over 5000 views and 225 posts. It's the biggest thread in D and P! Swoo... it's a lot of thinking work to build a motor!

Kev

I put in a request this morning to use the flow bench. It's not sitting there unused so I may have to wait.
Of course, the plan would be to base line test the Camels un ported and the S/R's unported to compare apples to apples. Then a ported S/R to show the actual gains from a little work.

The whole project has many educational benefits. I think that's why it gets so many views. I'm just as curious as to how it comes out and what the 1/4 mile times are.

If you take a few pictures along the way I may be able to assemble it into a website similar to the one you have for the durango deuce's 327. I know that I've flipped through that page on numerous occassions just for education's sake.

I think a lot of people would like to see how to build a super cheap, reliable, and pretty quick small block chevy. It's one thing for the magazines to do it with their endless supply of every aftermarket part imaginable (free of charge, of course), it's another thing for a poor college student from Pittsburgh. How fast can a daily driver go for a paycheck or two? We're gonna find out.

Kev

Low budget for you.... For the unlucky it would cost a arm and a leg to have someone of Paul's knowledge/skill assemble an engine for them. Example; flow bench's aren't FREE for most people. :cool:

Novaboy you are one lucky fellow thats all I have to say. :D

That is the honest to goodness truth 66... still, I think parts selection, touch up port work and meticulous attention to detail can be obtained by any hot rodder, even those on a $600 budget.

Kev

But at the same time, the knowledge that PW brings to the table is worth far more than the $600 price tag. You are one lucky son of a gun. :)

Heck yah! I've learned more from this thread (mostly from Paul) than from reading 1000 issues of hot rod/car craft/chevy hi po/etc.

Kev

but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison would it ??? you're not showing the gains from porting the Camel... fair must be fair... gains are made by porting the Camel... don't get me wrong... i just think the Camels, if you have them, shouldn't just be junked because a newer casting is better... equal runners and CC's etc etc etc... how do they actually stack up ???
show case one without giving the equal benefit to the other isn't equal...


know what i mean ??? ;) :D :D

Stock camel humps vs. stock s/r torquers. We'll see who takes the prize.

The ported s/r's are a before and after test with nothing to do with the camel hump comparison. Unless you want to put the 2.02/1.60's in and spend countless hours and money rebuilding and porting the fuelies up to snuff, I think we'll just leave that alone.

Kev

Stock camel humps vs. stock s/r torquers. We'll see who takes the prize.

The ported s/r's are a before and after test with nothing to do with the camel hump comparison. Unless you want to put the 2.02/1.60's in and spend countless hours and money rebuilding and porting the fuelies up to snuff, I think we'll just leave that alone.

Kev



i dunno how you get that Kev... some of us have those antiquated heads and spent the money years ago... if a comparison is done, it should be a fair test to show how bad these dinosaurs really are...

in the early '80's they didn't have all these NEW heads... i for one DID spend tons of bucks having these Piece of Crap heads done up... a stock 461 against a fully ported 461 and your S/R's same way... i know the new heads will be better... so i guess my heads should be taken to the scrap yard just because Huh ???

technology has improved on all types of things... maybe you aughta scrap yer dinosaur of a car and buy a new one... yer crap is old and not as good as a new one now is it ???

Hi guys,

I agree with John, if the tests are to be of any value they should be a valid comparrison- same size valves, same general condition.

I flow test a lot of heads and the condition of the valve seats makes a tremendous difference. I was thinking that the cammel humps had the valve seats "sunk" (remember turning the 2.02s to 2 in. to save the seats) and this would have to be fixed to make it a valid comparison (in my opinion).

I would imagine that the best test would be a "like new" stock camel hump with the appropriate valve sizes.
To add confusion there is significant flow differences in heads that appear to be identicle.

To clarify my general postion on this subject, I dont claim that the camels are the "value" or are as good a head as the vast magority of the aftermarket performance heads, but this dosent make them "crap". There are still a lot of very fast cars using these heads in various classes. In my opinion they just deserve some respect for their service.

sorry for the spelling

Jeff

What is the estimated power output of this motor? Let's run that in Goble's drag strip program to see what it'll run in a 4th gen, theoretically of course.

First we need to plug it into the PW Dyno v3.0. I don't know if we'll be able to estimate very well without a camshaft selection.

Kev

I just knew the camel horders (or is it herders) would protest.
Any flow testing will make every attempt to be scientific. I'm not going to bias the testing but I'm fairly sure it will prove that refurbishing old heads is not equal to new heads in price and performance. Without hard data then all the talk (including mine) is just an opinion. Maybe I'm wrong so I'm going to find out the truth.

I doubt I can get a lot of bench time so I'll have to set up a test plan. I have many sets of heads to choose from but I don't think using a camel hump ported like this is a realistic comparison either.

http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/cylhead.html


the 462's have different valve sizes than the S/R's... would you have an opinion on this ???

Man, Flyer, are ya ticked off this morning? :eek: Your going camping soon, don't worry, be happy! :D

Man, Flyer, are ya ticked off this morning? :eek: Your going camping soon, don't worry, be happy! :D


no offense intended towards anyone... my 291's were not flowed when they were done... i have 1.940's and 1.625's. the numbers on the above link were not that far off... SURE the newer heads are better... but i don't really see the sense in disposing of my antiquated dinosaurs for a new set of heads.

it takes a lot of pennies to make a dollar... so i may be short a few on my combo... does this mean it's junk in comparison to the new "Whiz-Bang" stuff... i'm here to learn like everyone else is... convince me mine aren't any good.

they were VERY good "in the day" but now their junk ???

bull****

Hi,

Gee Paul I hope you are not infering Im a herder of some type, especially about these heads.
Just to show that I am not in the last few weeks I have sold and installed about 8 sets of new heads.

1 set 180 darts

1 set Pro action 230

3 sets Dart Platinum 230

2 sets dart aluminum

1 set of Austrailian made Alum. heads 200
(these are kinda neet -very tall in port - flows real well - im not sure of durability)

I have also reworked 1 set of 291s (double hump)
1 set of 186 (double hump)
These were for restoration

1 set of461s (double hump)
1 set 601s (not even one hump-- 305s)
These were for NHRA type stock eliminator cars


I have owned atleast one flow bench since 1977 and I use them mostly to test various castings ( Im not real big on putting total faith in what flow numbers mean in regards to effect on the race track-- I trust evaluating performance as combination of factors)- max flow numbers mean very little to me (i guess im not real bright). Its a combination of many factors.

As you can see Im not "pushing" old cyl heads (or technology) on anyone.

New cyl heads are ususlly a much better "value" than most old factory castings of any manufacture (GM- Ford- Chrysler), but in my opinion that dosent make all of the old performance castings "crap".

Im sure that Kevs car will run great. I will be much more interested in the real drag stip times than the simulated performance figures.

It will be interesting to see the flow test figures, if they are a valid comparison. Just remember the "the humps" (as I guess I herd) were designed in 1960 and the Torquers in the 90s(?). It will be interesting to see the amount of improvement in 30+ years.

Thanks
Good luck guys
Jeff

Jeff, I'm just kidding!

My position on the matter is the camel humps legend is greater than reality. I aim to prove it mythbuster style. I'll pick the best ones from my collection and even give them a good valve job and new valves.

Here's a chart from the CHP cylinder head flow database but just comparing all the 1.94" iron heads in the database. Those Vortec truck heads are clearly better than older "performance" castings. What's surprising is the Iron Eagles aren't as good as the Vortec's though marginally better at higher lifts than the others.

With the exception of the Vortec's, lifts higher than .470" or so won't yield significant air flow increases. The 882's top out at less than .450" so in this case 1.6 rockers would be a waste of money.

Well, I'm really anxious on the outcome of the flow numbers. I have a set of SR Torquers on my 406. I chose them for a lot of reasons (cost, performance, streetability) but mainly because they are a really good aftermarket streetrod heads based on what I've read and talking to a lot of folks.

I think you're really gonna stir the pot on this one Paul! Looks like the flyer is gonna actually get off his butt and finish his car so he can drive out to Michigan and kick your fuelie hating butt! ;) ;) ;)

Kev

I think you're really gonna stir the pot on this one Paul! Looks like the flyer is gonna actually get off his butt and finish his car so he can drive out to Michigan and kick your fuelie hating butt! ;) ;) ;)

Kev


i DOUBT that seriously... i WOULD enjoy havin' a beer with him and tour his shop... i MIGHT learn a thing or two before he KICKED my butt !!!

i DOUBT that seriously... i WOULD enjoy havin' a beer with him and tour his shop... i MIGHT learn a thing or two before he KICKED my butt !!!


i'd also really enjoy running up north and have Mike run the Flyer on the dyno... i know that improvements could be made to whatever i put together...


then Mike could kick my butt back home ;)

LOL !!!

Hi,

No problem Paul, its just a discussion. The flow chart you provided kinda shows my point. The 462 that they tested is probaby a "middle of the road"1.94 head.

What you posted didnt give details on the valve job, but the Iron Eagles may have a radius type valve seat that greatly helps flow (especially at low to mid valve lift).

I would have thought that the aftermarket head would have flowed little better.

Im not sure I would agree with you on the 1.6 rockers.

I guess in "theory" and if you were racing flow benches instead of cars, removing the 462s and installing the Iron Eagles may have slowed the car down?

I guess my point is that, a head made in probably 1966 or 67 is even comparable to a modern aftermarket one is worthy of a little respect?



Good Luck
Jeff