Opinions on Rebody's on BB Novas!

I 'm sure most of you saw the recent Barret Jackson auction on TV and noticed the fiasco on the #27 1969 ZL1 Camaro from Alan Green Chevrolet in Seattle Washington.Car is all over the internet being talked about.Sites like the SYC Yenko site and Team Camaro have tons of post on it.Since its a known rebody car what are your opinions on if this was done on a original 68,69,70 Nova SS 396 car. I personally think its totally wrong to put a vin number of a car that needs restoration on another car. I don't even like the idea of remaking a BB core support. Only time that should be done if you have pictures of the original car of how you found it before restortion.Jason Hale for example owns a rare 68 L78 Nova SS 396 4spd car and took pictures before restoration of his original BB core support which is the way it should be.Now later on a if Jason decided to sell his car he has documented how he found to a potential buyer.Pictures of prior restoration are the BEST way to document the car's condition and document that it wasn't rebodyed.Seems the more I learn about this stuff now the more I appreciate somebodys Honesty and integrity in posting pictures,before ,during and after restoration.Pictures Don't lie,but sometimes people do to make financial gains.In todays restoration labor cost some people might think its best to find a donor body and just remove the cowel tag and vin and put it on another body.I personally totally against a rebody but if you HAVE to do it at least be honest,don't lie cause when people find out your reputation goes right down the toilet!! Anyone elses opinion?

Well my understanding is, removing a VIN from car A and putting it on car B is illegal anyway's, and these people are openly admitting to doing it.

That being said, if the car wasn't "born" with the exsisting VIN and cowl tag, it's nothing more than a clone IMHO.

at what point do you call a car a rebody!!! If you use the cowl area with the hidden vins and the trim tag with the vin from the dash still intack and cut out all the rest floors, trunk, roof, quarters, and replace it, is it a rebody? or are you calling taking the vin and cowl tag off another car and putting it on a donnor body what about the hidden vins ? or is a rebody cutting the cowl area off with the vins and trim tag in place and putting it on a solid donnor car?

As long as the seller was up front and honest I wouldnt personally have a problem with it, and as long as they werent trying to pass the car off as something it isnt. But from my understanding its not legal.

Theres a Silver 70 Yenko Duece discussed on the SYC a while back and I believe it ran thru this years BJ,totally different body.Seems a "Known" previous owner took the easier less exspensive way out and cut the hidden vin numbers out and welded them into the new never was Yenko body.Then the real Yenko vin number was attached and Yenko cowel tag to firewall.Is it right,its faster and cheaper.I give a lot of credit to those Honest people that no matter how bad the original body is do Not take the easy cheap road out. They save as much of the original body as possible and put her back to her original glory. Like I said it always easier and cheaper to just change your hidden vins,cowel tag and vin to another car and save on restoration cost. Yes most sites agree that this is Illegal to do,but more people need to know this happens and be aware of it. By the way Both my 68 L78 Nova SS 396 4speed are Original 'Born With Body Panel cars". The only body pieces not original are Drivers side door on White Reedman Chevrolet car and front hood on Teal Blue Chase Chevrolet car.Yes I have pictures to prove,Hows that for being HONEST!

I'm sort of in the air about this. I can see both sides of this.

Here is a scenario. There was a Yellow Yenko Duece that was on I believe ebay about 3-4 years ago. This car was totally shot. Every panel was rotted and the rear frame rails had actually fell off the car and were laying on the ground along with most of the trunk floor. PLUS it didnt have the origianal motor or tranny but I think it had the original diff.(it was something like that anyway) I think the car never sold and I believe the last bid was about 25K. (Which in reality was just buying you a Vin number and title cause the car was shot)

In my mind the only way to save that car was a rebody. Do you sometimes just let a car go or do you, if you have the resources, do what needs to be done to bring it back? There was not a single panel on that car that could be saved except possibly the roof (I dont remember what shape it was in) If you found all the right parts and rebuilt that car from scratch would that be any different then just transfering the vin and hidden vin to a new body? Like I said every panel on that car was shot including the firewall and dash. What do you do in this case?

Do you rebody it one panel at a time or do you just rebody it all at once with a new body? If that car was or is being restored one way or another the body is being replaced.

I say "What Ever You Do" Be honest and up front,don't hide your rebody job from Joe Public.Take pictures too and save in your restoration file,hows that answer? I just don't like when people put vin numbers,cowel tag and Hidden vins on a Donor body and hide the facts,not right,right,agree??

I say "What Ever You Do" Be honest and up front,don't hide your rebody job from Joe Public.Take pictures too and save in your restoration file,hows that answer? I just don't like when people put vin numbers,cowel tag and Hidden vins on a Donor body and hide the facts,not right,right,agree??

I totally agree with you. One way or another that particular car is being rebodied. It will be either done one panel at a time or all at once but it will be rebodied cause its shot and there was nothing left but a vin and title that was useable. (well maybe the roof but I cant remember if it was good or not)


I dont have anywhere near the money to do any of the real rare cars like Motions, Yenkos, etc. so none of this will ever apply to me. BUT do you think If that particular Yenko was rebodied and the owner was up front about it how would that impact its value to a potential buyer? I know this is all hypothetical but whats your guess?

But thats why they hide the fact when they put the cowel tag ,vin number and weld hidden vin on the "Donor Body " because they know it devalues the car.How much thats a good question. Like I said Honesty is the Best policy,right? The Truth will set you free!!

But thats why they hide the fact when they put the cowel tag ,vin number and weld hidden vin on the "Donor Body " because they know it devalues the car.How much thats a good question. Like I said Honesty is the Best policy,right? The Truth will set you free!!

Ya that was my thought too, and I guess when you start talking about the really big buck (100K) kind of cars the natural inclination is to get as much out of it as possible when you sell. The truth will set you free but it will also, in this instance, punish you for your thruthfulness. Sadly the right thing to do sometimes comes with a price attached.

Of course you could factor in that since the rebody route saved you a TON of both time and ****$ on the restoration you could afford to sell the car for less and still do well, if you get what I mean.

Yes,exactly,totally agree,thanks for your answer!

I should be working but I just had to reply!


I feel Dan and 69 nova SS is correct on this topic. That was the reason I took a lot of pictures of my car before the restoration. I document every thing from start to finish. I new my car would never be a numbers matching car but is a very rare limited production car. It is one of the 617 BB cars built with the 375hp motor. So you divide that by 52 states and that’s only 11.8 L78 cars per state. I am sure it didn’t happen that way but it is a good way to look at it. My motor was already gone in 1978 according to the past owner I talked to. The transmission and 12 bolt were still in the car. When I bought the car in 2001 those parts were long gone. So I have built a date coded L78 motor (that I am installing this winter- pictures to come shortly) for my car along with a date coded M21 and I am still working on a date coded 12 bolt. Restoring this car for me wasn’t about what the car was going to be worth but having a rare 68 BB nova. I had no idea when I bought this car for 600.00 it was this rare. I actually bought it as a part’s car for my 70 nova I had. My car was in rough shape but I brought her back to life. I replaced almost every piece of sheet metal, I found rust free door’s from out west, new quarter’s and tale panel, (Good mark). I replaced the bad spot’s in the floors, but the trunk was never touched. I even had to do some roof repair around the front windshield, do to the vinyl top leaking. I have friends that have seen the car before and after the restoration and are just amazed at the out come. It is really about the labor of love for these old cars. I enjoyed sharing my restoration with everyone, not hiding a thing but learning from my mistakes and hopefully educating others. What ever happened to the hobby? Is it all about how much it is worth in the end? So as far as re-bodies (Removing vin’s and cowl tags) I feel it is wrong. But in some cases that is the only solution like stated above.

Just my 2 cent’s
Jason

Jason,Awesome post,thanks for your honesty,that goes a long way in my book!! Honesty is the Best policy ! Dan

To me it's bait and switch....I have this COPO, Yenko, L-79 whatever for sale, for huge money.....buuuuttt......and usually no but, then the buyer finds out later paid for something that wasn't. ...poof, now it's a 200K car.......I don't think so...

Like the old saying goes, "it is what is" ......well...I say, "it ain't what it was".....

Just not honest to me, even if the seller tells you, it's not original. If I'm gonna drop big money, I want the real deal. Plus in most states, it's illegal to remove the cowl and VIN tags from a car. That's why the don't sell replacement rivets at NAPA.....:D


T..

I THINK ITS A BIG DEAL TO BE UP FRONT IF YOUR SELLING A REBODY CAR .IT MITE COST YOU A DAY IN COURT FOR THEASE BIG MONEY CARS.TO ME ANYTHING CAN BE SAVED BUT SOME PEOPLE TAKE THE EASY AND CHEAPER WAY OUT .I THINK WHEN YOUR RESTORING BIG MONEY CARS YOU SHOULD TAKE PICS FROM THE BEGINING TO THE END AND LET THE BUYER SEE WHAT HE IS BUYING.TO SEE A CAR ALL DONE LOOKING GREAT AND NO ORGINAL PICS BEFORE IT GETS PRETTY UP.BUYER BEWARE SOMETHING MITE BE WRONG HERE.PICS WILL SET YOU FREE NO EXCUSE YOU CAN BUY A CAMERA AT KMART FOR A FEW BUCKS :pics::pics::pics::pics::pics::pics::pics::pics::p ics::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Ive seen this argument quite a few times and the opinions are usually the same. I saw quite a few cars rebodied in the 80s. The thinking at the time was to do a perfect restoration, it had to be a perfect body. Repairing what they considered a sub-standard body wasn't an option. The explanation (rationalization if you will) was that when the bare bodies were produced, there was no difference in them (option-wise). So with that in mind, there was no good reason not to swap over the parts. Plus, at the time, most would look down at a rusty/repaired body-restored car as sub-standard. Remember, this is before most of the hidden VIN stuff was known. Funny how that changed the landscape once that became common knowledge.

This is not to advocate body-replacements. Just to state the thinking at the time. I sort of liken it to restoring old houses. If you replace everything but twenty boards (because of rot, ect) does that still make it an historic house? Or just a reproduction of it (with some original pieces)?

I guess it just depends on where you stand. Is restamping a block a correct restoration, or is it false because it wasn't an original part (to the car) and therefore shouldn't be stamped? And yes, I know a lot depends on the way it's presented (or disclosed if you will)

Another example (I've posted this before) is a car I bought in the 80s. A very nice 70 Nova SS 375 HP car. 80% original paint, original motor (not decked, original broaching), 31K, T3s, ect. Owner history back to 71 (all still alive) but no paperwork. These same guys (that had garages full of COPOs and 435 67s) stated that it was a beautiful car, but without paperwork it was only worth a sum of it's parts. Gladly, that thinking has changed.

I got my lisense in April of 1974 and bought a 69 Camaro SS 396 Lemans Blue 4speed.Was really a L72 motor in it out of a Vette.Loved the car and it was all Day 2 and nasty as hell! Anyway ended up putting it on its roof,totaled it. Motor was still good,12 bolt still good.It was a true SS 396 from the factory. I did get paid from Allstate insurance and then I bought the car back from them because I wanted whatever parts I could save plus engine rear and trans. Never never never thought of a rebody,no one even knew that term.Had title,had cowel tag,had vin and hidden vin weres still on firewall.Guess I could of,but even if we knew the term rebody I would of never never never done it,NOT right.Car went to Camaro Heaven. I have pictures of this nasty car and what it looked like after the accident.Fast forward to times where the term rebody is common.With the 90's and 2000's brought much much higher restoration cost,so this car probably would of been rebody. I personally wouldn't still of done it . I can remember in the late 70's only paying $800.00 for a Black Lacquer paint job on my 69 Camaro Z/28 4speed with a 396/375.Car was originally Burnish Brown from the factory and I wanted to change it to Bad Black! Door jams and everything only $800.00!! These cars were so so easy to buy at cheap prices why would you rebody any thing? So here comes the 80's still easy to find,lots for sale,cheap why would you rebody?The rebody thing started as restoration cost went up,components went up,rarity of car went up etc.Easier ,faster ,cheaper now a days to rebody,but again I don't agree.If you have to rebody and you put your Nova SS BB hidden vin numbers,cowel tag and vin number on say a cheap Common original rust free 6cly Nova body from say NM,AZ, Cal please be honest about it and take pics.Once you do it and hide it,then later on when it comes out you look like a douch bag.Again if you have nothing to hide and have to rebody take pictures.Pictures will set you Free!! I feel if you have to hide it from Joe Public then you your doing something wrong,right??

Here's my $0.02 on the subject, I have no intention of offending anyone, this is just my opinion.

For starters how many Chevelles have been rebodied? We will never know because they have no VIN stamped in them, so why are the Nova and Camaro subject to more scrutiny?

This still leave the question, at what point is it rebodied? How many back yard resto guys are certified welders, and are you OK driving a car that has been done by someone like this? I don't think this is/was, always the cheapest way out, if you cannot do the job correctly why risk injury or death. If my dash is rotted or damaged, I can legally replace it, at least where I live with the proper procedures being followed. Fisher Bodies had minimum tolerance specific procedures to follow, hobbiest don't. Many of cars were done in the late 80's, as mentioned because these parts were simply not available or some of the repair equipment either.

Now, if we take a 70 L78 4 spd car and a 70 6 cylinder 3 spd car and strip them to the shell, you cannot tell them apart, so the value isn't really the shell. The body for a 4 cylinder car is no different then for a BB car or even a Yenko. Most of the panels are made over seas, so now your car isn't even all American!:no:(kind of silly, but true) Somewhere, some how this hobby got blown way out of proportion and the average everyday Joes built, owned and drove these mass produced vehicles daily. So what makes an L78 car an L78 car, and what makes an SS an SS? For the most part, the drivetrain is where the value comes from, proof of this is the 73 up SS's have a very low comparative value to a 68-71 non SS car.

I honestly don't understand the issue with this for the fact the bodies are all the same BB, SB, SS, and non SS. The drivetrain is the defining difference in cars and value.

With this said, owners who have done this, or doing this need to be up front at sale time and if they're caught never disclosing this information they should be nailed to across and dealers should have their license revoked. I do think an original body is the most desirable, and a rebodied car would scare me off as much as an incorrect resto would.

I don't not agree with selling VINs and titles at all.

I FEEL THE SAME WAY.IT DOEST MATER WHAT KIND OF CAR IT IS AS LONG WHO EVER IS SELLING IT IS UP FRONT WHAT HAS BEEN DONE SO THE BUYER CAME MAKE THE CALL SO YEARS LAT:horse::horse::pics::pics::pics::pics::pics:ER SOME HOW IT COMES TO LIFE ABOUT THE REBODY THE NEW OWNER DOESNT LOOSE BUT WE CAN TALK TO ARE FACE IS BLUE ABOUT THIS IT ISNT GOING TO CHANGE A THING ALL ABOUT THE MITTY DOLLAR PLAIN AND SIMPLE.NO PICS BEFORE RESTRO BUYER BEWARE

taz3,Whats easier cheaper faster,take your hidden vins ,cowel tag and vin number off your rusty original BB Nova and put on Donor body thats in real nice shape? Or Replace maybe quarters,floor pans and front fenders possibly on your "Born With Body"? Oh yeah some of the stamps on engines trans are not always the real deal also.When it comes to motors thats a whole new issue , is it real or not.Most are detectable,but some guys have gotten real good with it.I like engine pads with old patina still on it.

taz3,Whats easier cheaper faster,take your hidden vins ,cowel tag and vin number off your rusty original BB Nova and put on Donor body thats in real nice shape? Or Replace maybe quarters,floor pans and front fenders possibly on your "Born With Body"? Oh yeah some of the stamps on engines trans are not always the real deal also.When it comes to motors thats a whole new issue , is it real or not.Most are detectable,but some guys have gotten real good with it.I like engine pads with old patina still on it.

The engine deal is, like you said a whole other issue, I like the patina and wouldn't buy a decked engine.

It really only matters to those trying to make a buck in the hobby. I'll pay more for a dated distributor and Steel 14X7 wheels now then I paid for my whole L78 car in 1991:eek:! It doesn't matter to me, because I bought a Nova, because I love Novas and never knew it was a true SS #'s matching L78 car when I bought it. I was happy I found a clean Nova, that needed little more than the engine rebuilt. I was truly rewarded when I found my car and if I met someone with a rebodied car, I can't say I'd lose sleep over it. I guess my view is different because I own my car simply for the fact I like Novas. I don't own it because it's an L78 car, that was/is an added bonus.

As for cost to repair or rebody, my red one in the my sig needs quarters and some floor work, replacement parts are cheaper,and I can do it myself, if it needed more, lets say like floors, and I needed to find a clean donor and get it here, it's about $5-6K, so it's close.I see junk novas sell up here for $3-6K. It's much different in the US, to do this.(easier) If more time and money is spent will this increase the validity of the car or if I put all new replacement panels except dash and firewall this is different? I know a body guy Illinois who did this to a 70 Chevelle, roof 1/4's complete floor, isn't that a rebodied car too? It's a fine line I guess, I would just hope the owner would be up front if the car went for sale.

Here's some food for thought, what worse a rebody or a restamped drivetrain car?

Do I think it's correct to mislead some? NO:no:

Taz3,Check Craigs list in New Mexico and California. Found 5 69 and 70 Novas from $600.00,$1300.00,$1900,$2100 to a SS for $4500.00.Anyone know the going rate at a body shop to remove and put new quarters ,floor pan,trunk pan in ,labor and panel cost?

I think a lot of this stems from the difference in ownership over the last thirty years or so. Years back It was "Rebuilding" not "restoring" the end result being much different than today's "Correct" world. Also, it was mostly street racing where as today it's all car shows and cruises. Priorities. A lot of the people in this hobby today only got into it after everything (value-wise) turned into big money. whether it be status, investment, ect, big money always changes the landscape. So now we have arguments over correct bolts/colors/numbers where as years back it was how to go faster.

So for guys like me that have been in the hobby/trade since the 70s I guess it's just a better understanding of how things were, and why things were done years back. I agree with the fact too that the amount of info and tools available today has vastly changed (and often not considered as a reason) how things can be done, or were done on cars years back. We went from backyards to restoration shops, and want adds to internet Muscle car dealers.

Whenever there's big money on the line, there's going to be people looking to cheat somehow.

Go to Team Camaro -Forums-Whats it worth setion-ZL1 Barret Jackson Camaro-Dosen't look good for Reggie Jackson,Gary Holub or Craig Jackson CEO of BJ. If only they were Honest ,THE TRuth will set you free!! Like Brent said always ask for pictures of car before,during and after restoration when buying one of these Nova SS 396 cars!!

I think this was the funniest post of all of "em!

By NH Bandit

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149505&page=6

So the original body may still be out there with the proper hidden VINs, and the car on BJ just got sold with the original VIN tag. Maybe the trim tag will show up on a different car and there can be 3 #27 ZL-1 cars out there. Then of course the original block could surface and end up in a Dynacorn body with repro tags.... Barret Jackson could line them all up and sell them as a set. Pretty soon one of the muscle car magazines will do an article titled "out of the 69 ZL-1 Camaros built only 200 have been found" Now I'm going out to the garage to clone my old Z/28. I think I still have the heater motor and a couple window cranks from the car

HA!

I think this was the funniest post of all of "em!

By NH Bandit

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149505&page=6

So the original body may still be out there with the proper hidden VINs, and the car on BJ just got sold with the original VIN tag. Maybe the trim tag will show up on a different car and there can be 3 #27 ZL-1 cars out there. Then of course the original block could surface and end up in a Dynacorn body with repro tags.... Barret Jackson could line them all up and sell them as a set. Pretty soon one of the muscle car magazines will do an article titled "out of the 69 ZL-1 Camaros built only 200 have been found" Now I'm going out to the garage to clone my old Z/28. I think I still have the heater motor and a couple window cranks from the car

HA!

This is where the problem is and a few people need to be charged with fraud, because that's what they're doing.

This rebody stuff is just soooooooooo wrong!! Thanks guys for your answers!

:horse::horse::p:pDAN LOOK ON THE SYC UNDER DISCUSSIONS DEFINE REBODY .WHEN YOU TAKE A ANOTHER CAR PUT THE VINS ON IT IS CALLED RECONSTRUCTION. REBODY IS WHEN 50% OF THE BODY NOT COUNTING DOORS FENDERS HOOD AND DECKLID:rolleyes:

Rebody=Walk over to your rust free New Mexico 6cylinder 69 Nova body and put your hidden vins,cowel tag and vin number from your SS L78 68,69 or 70 Nova.period! The deal about a certain percentage of original panels removed I just don't get that.Whos gonna be honest and calculated their % of panel removeable/replacement? Again things like that would need pictures of before restoration (How you found it) during and after restoration!

I would think that just swapping the VINs would make the car worth a lot less. However, as long as the owner/seller is honest about it, I would have no problem. Even if it is illegal.

David,Good point.Years ago I found a guy in the 717 PA area code that had a certain 1968 Novas SS Green L78 4speed car.I tried to buy it before he took the easy way out and rebodied it.It was unrestored 1 owner car,but total rust bucket.Original owner sent it to this guys Steves Sxxxxxx Auto to be restored.Steve wanted to rebody it!Says it would take too much time and money to restore.I was pissed when he told me he was gonna rebody it.He did buy a Blue 69 Nova 6cly clutch pedal rust free body from New Mexico.Luckly I kept the pictures and info on car.If only Steve and the New current owner would admitt it .Not right at all!! Just be honest and tell the truth and not try to inflate the value of your car and say its the original body if you own this car.I know where the car went and really hope the guy is honest and tells the truth. Dan

Hmmm another green 68 L78 car. Is it Sequoia green?

Jason

I don't want to offend anyone, but I feel a little sad about the concept of a rebody. To me it represents something that once was, but is no more, and I'm too sentimental to feel good about that. My position will seem wong to many, but I would rather have bits and pieces of the original relic than to give up and clone it. I agree with the positions that a rebodied car must be presented as such, anything less is misrepresentation, and anyone who tries to represent a clone/tribute/rebody/etc (insert your favorite term) as the real deal has to have a hollow feeling whenever they do so.

I think it's perfectly acceptable, and absolutley fine for anyone to build any body/engine/trim combination they like to suit their tastes, and what you have in the end can turn out to be an awsome showstopper, and a display of your talents (assuming you do it yourself), but again, don't misrepresent your are as the original.

Consider this - If I find a picture frame that at one time streched an original Van Gough, bought some canvas and painted (or hired someone to paint) a portrait on it, is it a Van Gough? What would happen if I tried to represent it as a Van Gough? What if I represented it as a Van Gough and attracted a buyer who paid a high price for it? You can come up with endless ways to model this process - take a bridge or tuner or an old pick-up from a legendary guitar and place them into a different body - what do you have? A guitar with some parts from a legendary guitar - and that might be kinda cool, but not quite the same as the original.

I think it's all the same whether it's a car, a guitar, or a reconstructed home at a historical site - it represents something important to some, and can provide enjoyment, pride, and nostalgia - just be clear and honest about it.

I would enjoy seeing any of these, but I won't drool like I would if I ran across a barn-find, bonified original.

Just my 10 cents worth

Freddie,Good info seems the 68 Chevy II Nova SS L78 gang,Brent,Jason H,you and me agree,Don't rebody 68 ,69,70 L78 396 cars and if you do be HONEST!!!!:yes:

Freddie,Good info seems the 68 Chevy II Nova SS L78 gang,Brent,Jason H,you and me agree,Don't rebody 68 ,69,70 L78 396 cars and if you do be HONEST!!!!:yes:

This seems to be the feelings of all members here!:yes:

Freddie,Good info seems the 68 Chevy II Nova SS L78 gang,Brent,Jason H,you and me agree,Don't rebody 68 ,69,70 L78 396 cars and if you do be HONEST!!!!:yes:


I know this thread is about BB cars but are you saying its ok to rebody non BB cars? Is that what I'm reading? If that is the case then its not that you have a real moral issue with rebodying cars its just you dont want it to happen to a car YOU might buy...who cares about the losers that buy SB cars eh?

Hmmm maybe I should look into rebodying that '70 yenko duece I was talking about earlier. Heck that car is a SB so it should be ok to rebody it eh? What will it be worth after the fact...100K or so...nothing to worry about I guess since its not a BB car;)

So its ok to rebody non BB cars? Is that what I'm reading? If that is the case then its not that you have a real moral issue with rebodying cars its just you dont want it to happen to a car YOU might buy...who cares about the losers that buy SB cars eh?

Hmmm maybe I should look into rebodying that '70 yenko duece I was talking about earlier. Heck that car is a SB so it should be ok to rebody it eh? What will it be worth after the fact...100K or so...nothing to worry about I guess since its not a BB car;)

No, it seems we agree as long as the future buyer is being informed, this is OK no matter what the model, that's the way I read it.

If it's anything less then 100% original, then they fall into a buyer beware category!

No, it seems we agree as long as the future buyer is being informed, this is OK no matter what the model, that's the way I read it.

If it's anything less then 100% original, then they fall into a buyer beware category!

very few of these cars are 100% original any more. Time has taken its toll and I suspect most if not all have had some, or a lot, of sheet metal replaced. So it should always be buyer beware. PERSOANLLY I would be very dubious of any big money car. There is just too much temptation for the slime in our hobby to cheat their way to big money.

Actually I'm against ALL rebodies but if you have to do it for what ever reason just be honest to the buyer of your car. Don't take this wrong but I started this post about the 396 SS Nova 68,69 and 70 cars.These cars will pull higher values especially the 68 Nova SS 396 cars. The world sucks sometimes when it comes to these higher value cars and bragging rights.What would really piss me off if someone represented their car as a Non-rebody car and you know the truth that it is.Some people get away with smoke and mirrors because of who they are sometimes.Again best way to disprove this on a 68 Nova SS 396 car for example is before restorations detail pictures,detail during restoration pictures and detail after restoration pictures. Also restamping of rears,trans and motor should be looked at.There was a guy in CA that was on ebay recently saying he could restamp your 4 speed muncies,hmmmm maybe make a "Correct M22".The SYC had a long post about remade protecto plates.Again,pictures,pictures ,pictures! Thanks everyone for ALL your comments,great info!!!!!!

69NovaSS,Isn't slime green,color of money too,LOL....good post,Dan

What is this called:eek::eek::eek::confused::confused:[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851351.jpg"]

No, he was cut off!:eek::rolleyes::D

What is this called:eek::eek::eek::confused::confused:[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851351.jpg"]

I suppose THAT one would be harder to find where the VIN stuff was welded in......

I found it in a 1988 Super Chevy Magazine.Says "I was told it was a Copo 427 new and was so powerful the car wouldn't stay together" Camaro Tim Pasadena California:eek:

Bump, don't let this thread die....great points being made !!

While this thread is rebodies, which I also agree is being freely used for deceptive purposes, a couple of other issues that I believe should be considered along with rebodies, are "FACTORY ORIGINAL & Numbers Matching?" Question; how many, would you guess, of the high performance cars retained their original numbers matching parts very long after ownership?

Speaking for myself, I know for fact most of us were always trying to get just a little more from our car? If Chevrolet Performance Parts were available, many would resort to them, but a large number of speed shops sold aftermarket parts that went on these cars? Many of these cars were raced and abused.

My belief these are areas that have been grossly abused? What are others ideas on these? Since this thread started about rebodies on BB Novas, How about the many abuses being done on restamps, body tags being sold, fake paperwork one is able to obtain, etc.? Just wondering if others think this is a major problem? Put all this in one pile, what do you have? Certainly if I were buying a car that has a high value, doing homework would be a necessity?

Great comments, Ray and the last one is the best if you're spending the big money you better do your homework. The only cars worth big money IMO or the all original unrestored cars (they're only original once), with no secrets. Before, about 1995 the restamp wasn't really a big deal and it will only get worse from here:(

Once these cars get doors,1/4's, trunk and fenders replaced they're rebodied in all honesty, why or how they became $50K + cars I'm not sure, because a SB SS would cost the same to restore less the engine, yet they're are a long way apart price wise.

If you're buying be sure you know what you're buying, it's your responsibility to know, you're signing the check!

A true rebody would be two cars side by side, one with a pristine body to work with and the other a basket case with the correct numbers which are then transfered to the donor body... Simple as that. A 40 year old car that gets doors or quarters or even a front cap is not a rebody... It is the same as a 2008 Yukon in the body shop... The car was repaired... When you nail a Deer late at night and the insurance company okays 5 thousand dollars of repairs to your new car including frame rails or a subframe which alot of cars still use, you do not consider your car a rebody, just a repaired car or truck. Carfax is useful on newer cars because it shows water cars, salvaged (cut in half and rebuilt) and general damage from accidents if it is reported by collision centers and insurance companies. The 40 year old car will not be found in a carfax report so you have to look it over to see if the car has been repaired or been under water. So, the term Rebody doesn't include repairs... It has to do with swapping the VIN and Trim tag to another body. If I buy a 40 year old Nova that was once a race car and was converted back to stock even if it had been backhalfed at some point it is not a rebody in my opinion. Weather the car has factory NOS sheetmetal or aftermarket sheetmetal may be an issue with some people but the bottom line is if you remove the numbers from one car and install them on another the car is a rebodied car.

I don't personally want the rebody but some people don't care. I also agree with Ray that the 30-40 year old muscle car has usually seen alot of aftermarket parts and may have grenaded the original drivetrain at some point in its life. That doesn't bother me, I prefer the speed parts of that era anyway and since I am not a numbers guy I couldn't care less if the engine is 6 months out of date or even 2 years out of date. I don't want to be lied to about a car I am buying and if I were to purchase a car with the original drivetrain and later see my engine show up at a car show or in a junkyard or ebay it would be embarrassing to me and the person I bought my car from. What this thread should bring to light is that we should be upfront about a car, let it be exactly what it is.. Not what you think it should be or could be or what your wallet wants it to be. I Think some day down the road alot of cars will be found to be fradulent and alot of people will be redfaced when they find out they have been buying and selling cars that are nothing more than a 6 cylinder car with numbers off a complete rust bucket with holes big enough for a St. Bernard to walk through....

What do I think about VIN swapping or building a car to drive and have fun with? Where I live it has always been common to pull a VIN from a junked pre74 VW bug and install it on a rail job in order to register it. It was common place for home built cars. No problem right, the VW was crushed, the rail job clearly wasn't a VW bug so who was getting hurt? No one.... I also don't feel that the guy with a total basket case car needing some numbers to get his home built muscle car on the road is a bad person for doing so. I personally would look for 6 cylinder numbers instead of an X44 car or something like that.. As with most things, we should all be decent people and use some common sense. You want to build and drive a hot rod around... Make it happen but don't rebody a flower pot and try to sell it as a numbers matching high dollar fake....




Tommy :)

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb303/DH427Nova/CamaroRe-Body.jpg

Pictured is what is known as a Camaro Re-Body jig. With no more than the picture of the orignal body shown, how could this body with all the replacement parts needed to bring it back to its original form, not be called a "Rebuild" or "Rebody?" I would be led to believe with the extent of work to be done, this car would more than likely be one of the high value cars upon completion?

In the previous post, I mentioned the abuse of the words "Original & Numbers Matching." As mentioned before in this thread, the car was only original once? This car may continue on with the process of what is called restoration of an original documented, numbers matching car that will bring big bucks, because it has scored 997 points out of a possible 1000? While those doing & achieving their goal for a near perfect resurrection of a once rare & desirable collectable car, thumbs up, thumbs down to those who try to deceive. I wonder about some cars that are definitely out there with most of their born with parts, yet will not be able to compete against the aforementioned built car? As Tommy mentioned, I too, could care less about all the numbers matching stuff, as very few of them had them on their cars a couple of years after new, anyway? I believe more interest should be on what the car really is, not if it is a numbers matching original restoration that is cleaner and better than ever before?

It's funny, because when I bought my #'s matching L78 car I had no idea what that meant nor did the seller, he loaded all the engine parts in the trunk he had and said he wasn't sure if it was a real BB car. The only thing he asked was that I returned his 427 in running order, I brought the car home and it sat in my driveway for a couple year until I built my shop, and then tore most of it apart and put aside wrong or damaged parts while hunting for replacements. My wife's cousin told me that GM had all the documents on the Canadian cars, so I sent away for it and found out I had a #'s matching BB car. Still no big deal to me, I still new little about how rare they were, until I started hunting online for some of the option codes that were not decoded. I just liked Novas since I was a kid and was happy I found an SS. I found SNS and only then did I realize what I actually bought, many of the rare parts were still with my car with the exception of a few that went back to the original owner on hit 427, because neither of us new of there importance at the time.

After I started going through the car I even thought it was a fake a couple times when I saw things like the opening for the shifter!:eek: Nice cutting job. Looking back now I'm glad I never through anything away from the car when I picked it up!:rolleyes::no:

Taz,

Good post which more or less describes my complaint of what has happened over the last several years. Your car should not be classed in the same catergory as the camaro I pictured in the jig, in a previous post that has to have a complete restructure? No problem with anyone making their ride what they want, just those who are flipping those for large sums starting with no more than a firewall and possibly a front frame for monetary gain. This is more than likely where a potential buyer will get hurt, in not being told the whole and true facts?

Hi Ray,Good to see ya post on this very important subject! Being that I'm a 68 NovaNut because I own 3 I hate when someone rebodies these little Gems.If they just be "Honest" to the buyer of their car when they sell so he can determine the "Value" of whats its worth compared to others that are "Not" rebodied cars. Like Brent,others and me agree say pictures "Before" restoration "During" restoration and "After" restoration is the way to go. Your BDA pictures should always be presented to the potential buyers of your cars. Great post by Tommy on the rebodie issue! Dan

[QUOTE=68MotionL88Nova;1030737]Hi Ray,Good to see ya post on this very important subject! Being that I'm a 68 NovaNut because I own 3 I hate when someone rebodies these little Gems.If they just be "Honest" to the buyer of their car when they sell so he can determine the "Value" of whats its worth compared to others that are "Not" rebodied cars. Like Brent,others and me agree say pictures "Before" restoration "During" restoration and "After" restoration is the way to go. Your BDA pictures should always be presented to the potential buyers of your cars. Great post by Tommy on the rebodie issue! Dan

While most of those posting generally agree, deceitful representation of a vehicle isn't very popular? While we do love the car hobby, enjoying our cars for whatever the vehicle was at one time, too those that have spent endless hours of rebuilding your dream, too those that who are now enjoying that dream in ownership, is not any intention of my personal thoughts, to disuade from enjoying your work of art, with nothing being misrepresented for personal gain? However, there are those that are getting these cars rebuilt (Representing them as "Original" & "Numbers Matching") that sometimes have no more than a firewall to start with? Like Tommy mentions, I think we all pretty much agree that repairs are, in most cases of a 35 to 40 year old car, accepted as normal expectancy? As Dan & others have mentioned, pictures taken before the rebuild (Restoration) starts is a very good idea? As mentioned about modern ways for those buying later model vehicles, we do have a tool that unfortunately only goes back a few years, that we may check a vehicles history to determine what the repairs made were, instead having to judge from what we're told or research? Looking into this option we have with the late models repairs, what value dollar wise, as to the vehicles worth, will an insurance company spend on a vehicle to have those repairs made before they total the vehicle? If the vehicle is totaled by the insurance company, then do not they not sell them as salvage to those with the highest bid, more than likely? The bidder then may take any number of cars and rebuild the car back to resemble a factory built car with year, make, & model, sawing bodies in half, using parts from several different donor cars, yet personally, I have yet to hear the word "Factory Original, Numbers Matching," but rebuilds instead?

Since this thread started on opinions of what constitutes a re-body, I would suggest, repairs beyond what an insurance company would have allowed at the time of a fender bender would allow with the car not being more than a couple years old, beyond totaling the vehicle could be used as a guide, between a repaired or a rebuilt vehicle? Though insurance companies would total some of these old cars now instead of paying for repairs, the standard of what would be allowed when the car was new or nearly so,could be retained as a guide between rebuilds and repaired? Rebuilds & repaired vehicles should be verifyed as such, but with what has happened with the escalation of the worth that has evolved in the hobby, the information on the vehicle has become only part of the true history that the seller may want you to know as a buyer? Thus you may not see any pictures of the vehicle as found before repair or rebuild, whichever term is more fitting? Didn't I hear there were more 67 L-71 Corvettes registered than was built? The money issue of the worth and greed there-in, in such a degree that interested buyers are, many time being deceived, is a problem, backed by greed? Just my .02 cents!!

Ray makes some very good, well thought out points. It is a little more difficult to use the "totaled out a couple of years from the original purchase" as a benchmark, as what we deal with today pertains more to rust/age deteriation, than collision. But his idea has merit non the less.
I have no issue at all with the term "rebuilt". If you start with little more than a shell, rebuilt is a good catagory. Again, I expect that the description would get lost the farther down the road the car got after completion.
Unfortunatly, the market has a way of perverting good intentions, into someones profit margin.
I think Ray has one of the best thought out scenarios that I've ever read. But I don't think I've ever met a more honest man than Ray either.

The car in the above pic in my estimation will be a rebody. The dash, and the hidden vin areas are gone. Without a DOT witness, I would not accept that car as a legal vehicle.

I save these Ebay photos when I see them. This is pretty obvious :rolleyes:....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/pile%20up%202/1b57_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/pile%20up%202/1a80_1.jpg


Tommy :)

I save these Ebay photos when I see them. This is pretty obvious :rolleyes:....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/pile%20up%202/1b57_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/pile%20up%202/1a80_1.jpg


Tommy :)

Now this is wrong on all fronts and this is what has caused the up roar, IMO. Here is a perfect example of someone abusing the hobby, they have no interest, other then making a quick buck and possibly support the next person to defraud someone as well!

Now this is wrong on all fronts and this is what has caused the up roar, IMO. Here is a perfect example of someone abusing the hobby, they have no interest, other then making a quick buck and possibly support the next person to defraud someone as well!

How did you get those pictures of my car....????


:D:devil::D:devil:

Tommy,Great pictues.There's a Nova I know of that was a rust bucket,could of been saved but they took the less expensive way out and got a clean body and remove the entire firewall and attach it to the new donor body.You won't see the weld attachments this way.Look for Non factory seam sealer on front of tunnel close to firewall in restoration pictures.I only hope the person does the right thing and admitts it someday that its not the original body.This person also missed some things that "We" know of. Anyway Tommy thanks for your posts,your a great moderator and know your stuff! Dan

What about another scenario where a real-deal car exists without a title? In Indiana, ther is no lawful way to title a vehicle without having the previous title, and I've seen some hearbreaking examples. A few years ago, someone showed me a 65 Biscane that had belonged to his aunt. It had been in storage for amny years, and he was willing to let it really cheap! The title was in the glovebox, he said, but when we got it out, mice had absolutely destroyed it. The "possesor" of the car was not the executor of his aunts estate, and that person had passed on years ago. we tried several approaches with the BMV, but were told that there was not any way a private citizen could obtain a title for this car. The only option, which was too crazy, was to have the car placed in impound, or storage so the proprietor of the storage facility could, after some time, apply for mechanics lien and get a title. But at that point, the car would have to be posted in the legal section a newspaper and auctioned. Sadly, this arrow straight 2 door post car ended up a casualty of the high value of scrap metal last year. I have seen offers for title brokers in states that have more lax rules, you send them a bill of sale and they apply for a title and then sell you the car back for a couple hundred dollars. Whadda you think about that? It scares me.
Similarly, after watching a 73 Z28 rust bucket that I bought from my cousin when he joined the Navy in the 80's dissolve into iron oxide, I stripped all usable parts from the car before scrapping the left overs. For some reason, I kept some unusable parts too - the vin tag, cowl tag, and the title. My values (and fear of jail) would never allow me to sell these components to someone to clone or title a stolen car, so I just kept them as trinkets or hard evidence to serve as a memorial of this Z28, but I have a hard time thinking back to that Biscane and how this type of documentation could have been used to circumvent (IMHO) crazy Indiana BMV laws. Sorry to ramble on - just looking for closure I guess

That sucks up here we can a apply for ownership at the Ministry (DOT) they keep full records of who owned or owns what. I've lost ownerships up here a couple times for $5 they replace them. Even an abandon car can be transfered with the proper legal steps in place, here.

Could you not buy it and cut it up for a donor car? I know it's not the preferred thing to do, but it beats feeding to crusher.

Yes, I was trying to hold out for a way to get the title, but the "possesor" (he's not even the legal owner in Indiana) scrapped it because cars were bringing $400 at the recycling center. Another twist, if the engine is still in the car, the recycler cannot accept it without the title, so he had to have the engine removed before he could even scrap it!!!


In Wayne County, you are only allowed to have one unliscensed vehicle on your property, or the county can issue an order to have it removed (graciously, they give you 72hours). If you don't have the paperwork and title your up the creek.

It still hurts - lot's of really good parts gone forever.

I am able to fly under the radar, and have too many cars (unliscensed, by the county's and my wife's standards), but am in a remote area. When my house burned a few years ago I had to go to the zoning dept to apply for all the permits required to rebuild. The lady in the zoning office pulled an aerial photo and pointed out that the cars were a violation. I told her that they weren't cars, and convinced her that this wasn't the "right" time in my life to come after me for unliscensed cars anyway. heh heh

Freddie,Boy that sucks,never knew there were Nazi Car Crusher states like yours! I guess in Indiana theres no "Outside Barn Finds"? I believe AZ is like that but they have block walls around their backyards.AZ has lots and lots of Home Owner Associations,the HOA Nazi's walk/ride around with their clip boards and right your weed violations down,improper approved colors on your house,workng on your car in your driveway ,etc...Man if they had that law in NJ there would be a lot of people in trouble.

To me if the car was being represented as an original #'s matching car then thats what I would expect to get but personally to me it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other......but with that said if your a speculator who is going to eventually resell it to turn a buck or 2 or just a very picky Collector I can most definitely see their side of things as well.

The Rat Rod guys do it all the time or so I have been told and I understand that there is a huge difference in taking an old model A or T or something similar that has been sitting out in the weather and is just a shell and there is absolutely no way possible to get clear and accurate title and building a re bodied Yenko....these guys take another vehicle like a Camaro or even an S-10 PU and swap bodies and then when they take the title for it in to get a new one made so they can get it licensed they just use the numbers off that vehicle they started with and it falls into the Custom Body category....one that I know really well is a State Trooper here and he says it's perfectly legal to do in our state anyway....and believe me he is one of those rare breed of Law Enfocement who would rather give up his first born than to even Jay walk let alone do something tricky with a Vehicle title.

Just my 2 cents.

Randy

This practice has been going on for a long time....

Back in the day sometimes it may have been the most feasible way to restore a favored car. Even though it has always been illegal to swap vins….it was often overlooked.

Now that some of these cars have some $ignificance to them,the legality has become forefront and vin swapping less overlooked!

One aspect of the practice that really bothers me is doing it for profit. FRAUD!!!!

How many of yester years rebodies have been “certified” today by the experts and are now “Real”?

Never to be questioned …….

If only I was part of the “good ole boy club”so I can have my car “certified” by an expert buddy of mine……. Maybe it could have been “real”today…

It is funny how many #’s matching Zl1’s, Yenko’s,Motion’s, Ls6 chevellles exist today…

And Z/28’s……Geeezzz……..twice as many as Chevy ever produced!

1963wagonman,Yes thats what pisses me off doing it for profit!!! Boy you got that right!! I'm involved in a case with a friend of mine that loves these cars as much as I do,but can never drive them because he's a quadraplegic.He fell off a cliff back in the late 70's and has NO use of his arms or legs! I grew up with his older brother and now recently became good friends with Dave S who was paralized. Dave contacted me about a year ago and we have shared stories of the past.His girlfriend Nicole Dave and me share good times together and they been to my house several times now.Dave had bought a 69 Z/28 4 speed years ago and recently sold it.It was a car he loved and Nicole and friends would drive it for Dave while Dave was strap into the drivers seat.I helped Dave sell it and also put him in touched with Jerry McNeish to Document it.Dave did make some money on it and was real happy about it.Now he had the itch to try and find something new,maybe something special as a good investment.Well he found another car,had it shipped to NJ and thats when I started researching it for him.Whithin a week I was able to find the previous owner of the car before the guy that Dave bought it from..Luckily the guy was totally honest and told us the truth.Seems the seller of the X-22 396 69 Camaro changed the cowel tag.Had it remade with X22 D80 396 code.Originally it was a 350 SS car. Dave paid real good money for it and Dave asked the seller to take it back and pay shipping charges too.Guy finally admitted he misrepresent the car after we nailed him big time.The seller was amazed I was able to find this previous owner because I had little to go on.Guy refuses to make good on taking car back.How can this scumbag that knew Dave was paralized before he even made the deal do this?? This is the ultimate scumbag,someone that would rip off the Handicap!! Anyway now Dave has hired a Lawyer and its in the works! We have lots of evidence and people who will testify in court against this scumbag,me being one! Dave has thanked me many times and I tell him no problem thats what friends are for! I believe in Good Karma what goes around comes around.One thing I did was take Dave for a couple rides in the car.Nicole and me Straped him in the car and nailed the gas,boy did he smile!

You sound like a good freind.......dave is lucky to have you around!

I loved that last sentence!:D

Believe me,I am quite aware of the Shananigans that go on in this hobby.I have heard just about every argument there is.....

And I'm lucky to have Dave as a friend likewise.Dave has taught me that NO matter how bad life is,good friends make it better.I can remember when I brought my 68 Nova SS 396 car to his condo in Bridgewater NJ. When I left ,Dave came out with Nicole in his wheel chair.Dave watched me fire the Nova up,heard the rumble and smiled from ear to ear! I pulled up along side him just to say goodbye and said now watch this.I moved the car up and hammered 1 st and 2and car,lots of wheel spin and tire smoke!! Later on that day I got home and Dave called,he said that was awesome,great burn out,loved the roar of the BB!! I said anytime Dave,love doing it its good therapy for both of us!

This is a story that sucks to be real, and this is what's wrong when guys do this to make a buck. It's great to see you a Dave have a good friendship and are taking care of each other.

That stunt is worse, then even a rebody, he retagged a SB to be a BB car for profit, glad you caught him and are taking care of this. This is so uncalled for!:mad:

I wounder whats going on here its on ebay item#110361381634

If the VIN and firewall are intact this car should be rebuildable, IMO. This is where it gets to be opinionated, at what point does it become a rebody.:confused: There are many cars that have been brought back to life from this level.

[QUOTE=taz3;1042566]If the VIN and firewall are intact this car should be rebuildable, IMO. This is where it gets to be opinionated, at what point does it become a rebody.:confused: There are many cars that have been brought back to life from this level.

Taz3,

I do agree with you completely that this car is rebuildable and many cars have been brought back to life from this level and beyond? In what can be seen from this point, all we have to document this car is a hidden vin# and possibly a body tag, without paperwork? Even with more documentation to start with, what part of this rebuildable car can truly be called factory "Original?" Firewall, Roof, Possibly rear sub-frame, etc? Could parts from this car possibly be on another carrying an "Original" sticker? What are the possibilities that the "original" motor size, let alone "original" motor, will ever sit in front of the firewall? What will the underneath drivetrain be composed of and will it match the "original" that was under the car when shipped from GM? IMO, I would venture to say this car would never be rebuilt to be sold as anything other than a pretty rare, collectable car, carrying the "Original" banner from stem to stern. Many do have "original" cars and need to be commended for their past TLC in preserving Nova history. But, when a car is built to a standard, better than new, and represented as a more highly sought after model than the car ever was and many parts used from other cars, this has to be a deceptive practice in using the term "Original," so liberal?

Ken, good to see you posting on this subject. Don't worry!! Not picking on an "original" Yenko Deuce owner, nor on one of the most "original" cars that can be truly verified.

Our driving seasons are short, (for muscle cars) so there are many of number matching drivetrains still around up here with very neglected bodies, so this is not unusual to see for us, but or west coast folks tend to have good bodies with missing drivetrains, do to the longer driving season they have. If there is #'s intact and drivetrain, it would be a good save, it's to bad there's no paper work for you guys like us.:( I have an L78 US car without any documents. I know a couple things to check for that are not possible to duplicate, but 3 or more need to be there to prove the car for it's authenticity!

This is why it's a real fine line of definition, I like the response here, of just be up front and honest at sale time and do what ever you wish to keep the hobby and your passion strong.:yes:

The unmolested cars will rise to the top IMO, and the rest will all fall under restored and can be ranked from there.

Some real good post here!:yes:

(http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851555.jpg)[/URL][URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851540.jpg[/http://[IMG]http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851540.jpg (http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851555.jpg)[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851541.jpg[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851543.jpg

Brent,Thanks.I had my interior out of my White 68 Nova SS 396 4 speed car and took pictures showing the original floors,trunk etc.I wanted to share the original photo of where the firewall meets the front of the tunnel.You can see the factory seam sealer there.Theres another picture that Brent forgot to post of the passenger front floor pan and how it meets the firewall.I counted what looks to be 10 Factory spot welds there.These are areas to examine for firewall rebody.

[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851583.jpgHow to put a nos quarter on with hand tools ONLY no welding needed:eek::eek::eek:[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851560.jpg

This is what happens when you leave your kids alone unsupervised,LOL. Really though its a dam shame that the Father who owned this car since 1979 let his son and his friend do this! Yes this was a real NOS Full Quarter,GM sticker still on it! I bought this car not to restore but some parts I needed.Its too bad that this car is dieing a slow death,but she will be remembered in her tansplanted parts.Car is a true 68 Teal Blue Blue Bench seat interior L48 SS 4speed Nova.

If the VIN and firewall are intact this car should be rebuildable, IMO. This is where it gets to be opinionated, at what point does it become a rebody.:confused: There are many cars that have been brought back to life from this level.

When doing a rebody how much of a difference does it make if re-pop sheet metal is used vs NOS sheet metal vs hand made pieces and patches? I'm sure to some people this is of major importance. To me if it's straight and looks good I'm happy, but then I'm not out buying collector car's.


Looks like moving VIN's and cloaning for profit may not always me that profitable.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/24/cloned.cars/index.html

Looks like moving VIN's and cloaning for profit may not always me that profitable.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/24/cloned.cars/index.html

This is the real reason for the hidden VIN's to prevent theft and to be able to identify stolen vehicles that were re VIN'd.

Here is:rolleyes:[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851877.jpg" a pic of parcel vin on the rear package tray of dans 68 l78 nova

Brent,Yeah I climbed in the trunk with my drill and wire wheel and found this under the original paint.

Here is:rolleyes:[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/ss851877.jpg" a pic of parcel vin on the rear package tray of dans 68 l78 nova

That looks like just the 11427 body designation though....

I'll look on mine to see if it's any different..

That is just the designation that the part was for a 2 door Nova.

I.e. 11427 was a fisher body term to 2 door. Just like the trim tags. All two doors were 11427 regardless of engine.

The other number should be a date code.

Greg

Make your car a L78 69 .I[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/BVTfdewWkKGrHgoOKjEEjlLmY6sPBKR4uN0.jpg[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/BVTfgmwB2kKGrHgoOKkIEjlLmVgL3BKR4uY.jpg[URL="http://http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/SPIKEYZ0/BVTfuJQB2kKGrHgoOKiMEjlLmVzhzBKR4vF.jpg:eek::eek:: eek:dont know how this stuff will prove it but the guy said it was one ONLY 450.00 .LOL EBAY #180374844724

Now this is way over the line, he sold off the L78 parts and now wants to sell the #'s for someone to have a fake L78 this is beyond rebody.:mad:

This is what hurts the hobby, it's way more then someone trying to keep a car on the road with extensive body work. This is someone that will be faking an L78 car.

OK yeah thats bad, but if it was a 68 I would have got it just for dash items then junked the rest.

Now this is way over the line, he sold off the L78 parts and now wants to sell the #'s for someone to have a fake L78 this is beyond rebody.:mad:

This is what hurts the hobby, it's way more then someone trying to keep a car on the road with extensive body work. This is someone that will be faking an L78 car.

Pretty sure it qualifies as a "Ship of Theseus" fraud. That's what stung Coddington and the UNIQUE guys down in Texas if I remember correctly.

Not the correct steering wheel,LOL,this is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo wrong.Everyone should keep this vin number in case it comes up for sale!!:mad:

If somebody has the VIN shoot it my way and I'll add this to my "fakes" list.

Not the correct steering wheel,LOL,this is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo wrong.Everyone should keep this vin number in case it comes up for sale!!:mad:

Good idea!!:yes: