CW front clip install problem

For those who have this clip, I am installing it on a 66 and my problem is that the upper arms of the clip do not seem to line up with the three bolt holes in the firewall. I have followed the instructions and have loosely bolted the main bottom frame to the car and let it hang. I then went to install the upper support arms and they hit the firewall well below the intented bolt holes. I have tried moving the entire frame around and adjusting to get the holes to line up but I dont see it happening.. Am I missing something here..? thanks.

Len:confused:

I don't have a CW clip, but from looking at my Nova Handbook it looks like you could bolt the support arms to the firewall first, then pry the bottom over the Gemini connectors? Or, put a screwdriver through the mount holes and firewall, then pry up till you can at least get one bolt through. That should hold it in place to get the others in. I had to do some gentle persuading on the lower part of mine. I've heard others have had to do the same with their TCI and Heidts clips. You're finding out that there seems to be some variances from one car to the next.
Maybe post some pictures.

Here is a pic of both sides. I dont know if this can be forced that far or not.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg106/LEN2708/novarestore060.jpghttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg106/LEN2708/novarestore061.jpg

The other issue I just thought of are the shims.. If I have to force this thing together am I still going to need shims? What will it affect if I dont use them?

thanks Len

Woe!:eek: That is way off! Maybe Techguy, or someone that has dealt with this will chime in. Mine was only off a little at the bottom.
The shims are used to adjust the fender to door gaps.

good luck

Thats what I was thinking.... I'll be calling Mike tomorrow to see what we can do. thanks for the help.

I bet if you put a jack under the crossmember and lift it up the supports will line up much better.

I've done that too.. I have two jacks: one on the crossmember and one on the front radiator support piece. Its jacked up as high as it will go, any higher and I would have to unbolt the frame..

len

I have a CW clip and it aligned perfectly...as several guys I know who have them. The only time I've seen them off is when the car had been in an accident that threw everything off. Unless something in manufacturing jig slipped possibly, but I suppose it's possible. As others said, give CW a jingle and show them the pix...maybe there's a measurement they can have to make to check the down tubes to ensure they are indeed correct.

What happens is as the floor of the car collapses upward after 40 years of poor design, the firewall frame mounting plates start to angle back at the bottom.. causing the front of the frame to tip down... most of the time the drivers side is lower.

The forward struts are all the same.. they are jig welded based on the fit on the plate, not the bends.

We found this out after taking the same front end. & trying it on three different cars... one went on easy, one took some pulling & jacking,
one took 3 men & a small boy ..... but the all sat just fine afterwards.

Solution? BFH!!!

John

What happens is as the floor of the car collapses upward after 40 years of poor design, the firewall frame mounting plates start to angle back at the bottom.. causing the front of the frame to tip down... most of the time the drivers side is lower.



I guess I thought it would have been backwards from this. As the floor weakens, the car collapses in on itself in the center. So the center goes down, causing the firewall to come in at the top and out at the bottom, which would make the lower frame rails come up at the bumper. Never thought about it the other way around.....

I guess I thought it would have been backwards from this. As the floor weakens, the car collapses in on itself in the center. So the center goes down, causing the firewall to come in at the top and out at the bottom, which would make the lower frame rails come up at the bumper. Never thought about it the other way around.....
if you jack the car up near the firewall you can feel the floor move up when seated in the drivers seat.

I think it's beacuse the floor is so weak in the middle, it buckles & collaspes..

it might be that as the cente shrinks up, the bottom of the firewall moves rearward... or maybe as the tires hit a bump, it drives the bottom of the frame rearward, since the top of the firewall is stronger.

just thinkin' out loud ...

if you jack the car up near the firewall you can feel the floor move up when seated in the drivers seat.

I think it's beacuse the floor is so weak in the middle, it buckles & collaspes..

it might be that as the cente shrinks up, the bottom of the firewall moves rearward... or maybe as the tires hit a bump, it drives the bottom of the frame rearward, since the top of the firewall is stronger.

just thinkin' out loud ...

I see what you're saying now....makes sense!!!

My car is just as far off on the passenger side upper mount. My subframe was perfect within a 1/16" so It's an issue with the firewall. I planned to just cut the reinforcement plate off the firewall and move it down to meet the strut plate.

Len,

I just thought of something. I don't think its your top bolt holes in the firewall, I think its the lower mounts. I have two sets of front frame rails, both from 66 hardtops. The four holes on one set are about 1/2 higher than the four holes on the other set.

I took my frame rails completely off my car including the section that spot welds to the firewall. I set the other set in its place, and nothing would line up. I looked closer, and noticed the four holes on each one were not in the same spot. Not off enough to cause the big difference like yours though. Just a thought.

My other thought is this. The weird part about yours is.......why did the stock clip fit right? There's no way shimming would take care of it, and if you said you put two jacks under the front to push it up, I don't see how it could be the body flexing that bad.

And another thought.....Is there someone on here that can measure vertically from the top of their front CW frame rails to the bolt holes on your firewall for Len? Then Len, if your car matches those measurements from frame rail to firewall holes, you know the car is fine, and the tubes are goofy. If your car matches those measurements from top of CW frame rail to CW tube mount holes, you know the tubes are fine and you car is goofy.

Just trying to help!!

Thanks for all the help guys. I spoke with Mike at CW and he said the difference is normal and it just has to be muscled into place. So when I have a chance here sometime this week, I am going to attempt to get it attached. I just worry about all the stress on the bolts and etc with that much flex. I'll let you know.

len:turn:

I had the exact issue when I installed my CW front end in my 66. My car had sustained some front end damage on the passenger side at some point, but both sides were off by the same and very similar to the pics posted.

So, I snugged tight the eight mounting bolts of the clip to the frame. I placed a 2x4 under the front strut and used a floor jack to position in place. All that was needed was one bolt to hold it in place. You will not budge the gemini connector at the frame because that thing is rock solid. No issues with alignment, but you may need to make ride height adjustments as needed.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

Todd

Yes it will fit
Yes you need the Shims, Or your fenders wont lineup.
Yes its a pain to do this solo

I checked my site for pics on this step and looks like I skipped the camera that day. I just have a note that it was a pain.

My pics for my CW install on my 66 are found here:http://kracon.dyndns.tv/Nova2Main/Scottclip.htm

One issue I had at your spot, is one of my screws were VERY tight: http://kracon.dyndns.tv/photogallery/photo00022236/000_0023.JPG

The clip is on!! I did as the you suggested and took a 2x4 and floor jack, put in under the front strut up near the firewall and jacked it into place. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Now it's on to the the A arms...

Len:turn:

Glad to hear all is well.
Tg

The clip is on!! I did as the you suggested and took a 2x4 and floor jack, put in under the front strut up near the firewall and jacked it into place. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Now it's on to the the A arms...

Len:turn:

Congratulations!
Just curious. After bolting up the front clip, is your frame square & level?

YES, I PUT A LEVEL ON ALL SIDES AND IT APPEARS TO BE GOOD AND LEVEL. :yes:

But did you put in your shims????

I Did, It Came With 8 Shims So I Split The Difference And Put 4 On Each Side For Now. Im Sure I Will Have To Adjust That When I Put Fenders Back On... Thanks For The Help.

I've personally done my own and helped with two other Chassisworks clip installs and everything fit exact, so unless their jig moved or the stuff got bent in shipment, or some other un-natural act, it's got to be that something has moved in your car. Have you measured from the bottom bolt holes to the top ones and compared to another car for instance? It appears that a simple measurement between the two would tell us if it's correct or not. I can measure from the top of the bottom frame rail to the holes on the firewall, that should tell you if yours are different.

Are the bottom frame rail holes on the same plane as the upper mount holes?

Say the car had hit a manhole and bent the front frame (and the lower firewall mount down) this would tilt the new frame at a different angle and thus move the upper bars away from the correct position at the firewall.....

we experimented with this situation you speak of ..tilting the frame down 1/8" to a 1/4" moves the firewall plates a ton... simple leverage.

and I don't see how the car collapses up in the middle either.
I had my doubts on it being the car that was off in this thread.

remember, this is the same car that many people install subframe connectors on to keep them from twisting & buckling in the middle...
the body sees loads from accelration in the rear, & braking from both front & rear.. sure, the rocker boxes are a good strength point, but those are only connected to the frame rails by sheet metal.
Also, again.. if the same exact front end fits on one car , but does not fit on another
car the same, what does that say ?
Please trust me.... we worked on this fittment issue, & that's how we found these problems with a 40 year old car.

And there you go. A guy willing to help out!!! Yes!! Thanks for going the extra step. Thats what needs to take place, some measurements. I would have offered but I dont have the original bolt holes anymore so I cant measure nuthing. LOL I was never good at measuring anyway so measuring nuthing would be easy for me :))) Cool, there you have it. A solid car and a solid guy helpin out. Measure it.. JR

I measured from the top of the bottom frame rail to the middle of the top left mounting hole of the upper firewall mounting plate... it's 18 1/2"

If you want me to take any other measurements or have questions, let me know.

I was asked by Mike at Chassisworks to post this pix of their jig assembly.

Mike says "This is the strut jig.. the “L” is 4x2 .120 wall, & the flat plate is ¾” thick, with ¼” gussets.



The bend of the tube has nothing to do with the locating of the end points.

Thanks"

See the attached photo...

A simple measurement would tell all. Measure the upper bars to the lowers. Are the distances diff??? Ummm, well that says they are off.

Actually, if you measure top to bottom that won't prove anything. Neither will measuring diagonally. All that will prove is that your firewall has the holes in the right place. What Mike/TechGuy is suggesting is front to back, not top to bottom misalignment.

I love my Nova, but it's the 60s equivalent of a honda civic. Only it wasn't built by a robot. It was built by some guy who may have learned to weld from the hobo down the street.

And now that I think about it, I know that the holes in my stock subframe are significantly larger than the holts that hold it in place. I wonder why that is.

I love my Nova, but it's the 60s equivalent of a honda civic. Only it wasn't built by a robot. It was built by some guy who may have learned to weld from the hobo down the street.




That is the funniest darn thing I've read on here yet!!! I needed a good laugh today, and this was it. You should use that line as your signature!!! Good stuff!!

Can't help you on that one...all I know is every one I've dealt with either personally or heard about from others said everything lined up just as it should UNLESS the car had been hit etc. One of them had been buckled from underneath so it looked like it hit a curb or high centered or something and it didn't fit correctly until they got it back like it should be. I don't have any theory, but can give you whatever measurements you wish off from my install. I measured from the top of the frame rail, not the bottom bolt hole. I'm pulling the engine & trans out tomorrow morning, so can get in there and easily take some more measurements if you wish.

Hey Now. Interesting issues. TechGuy is right about how the floor pan buckle and move the cowl the way he puts his theory. Its due to the geometry of all the connecting points that causes the body/cowl/frame rails to move. To the body, I did not see where anyone has trammed the body to check its true alignment. Specs and how to do this are in the manual, including pictures. :)Respectfully, "Bill's" II

So yesterday I was "thinking out loud" again.... so Chris Jr & I measures a car
or two... one was 18 1/4" , one was 18 5/8" on the drivers side, 18 1/2" on passengers..... but looking how the the bottom frame plate is farther forward
than the firewall plate, .. if the car settles/buckles in the middle, could that botom frame plate go forward ?
if it does go forward,& up.. the 18 1/2" or whatever would be the same, but when you bolted the frame on, & leaned the top strut to the fire wall, it would
end up lower than the firewall mounts...

sorry for yappin' so much...

Hey Now. The measurement should be 18 3/4 inches. + or - 1/16th inch. Measured from the inner threaded hole in upper attaching surface to upper outer hole in lower attaching pad on the same side of the body. If the measurement is off, and according to thread they are, then the lower under side needs to be checked with a Body Tram Gage to find out where the bend or twist is in the unibody. The Specs for all unibody Chevy II/Nova measurements must be within 1/16th of an inch for everything to mount onto the cowl forward. This includes fenders and skirts. The door jambs also must be checked to be sure they are in the designed location. If not the doors will not allow enough adjustment at the front cowl attaching points. All of these measurements are in the Shop Manual for Chevy II/Nova. pages 2-1 through 2-8. Respectfully, "Bill's" II

Hey Now. The measurement should be 18 3/4 inches. + or - 1/16th inch. Measured from the inner threaded hole in upper attaching surface to upper outer hole in lower attaching pad on the same side of the body. If the measurement is off, and according to thread they are, then the lower under side needs to be checked with a Body Tram Gage to find out where the bend or twist is in the unibody. The Specs for all unibody Chevy II/Nova measurements must be within 1/16th of an inch for everything to mount onto the cowl forward. This includes fenders and skirts. The door jambs also must be checked to be sure they are in the designed location. If not the doors will not allow enough adjustment at the front cowl attaching points. All of these measurements are in the Shop Manual for Chevy II/Nova. pages 2-1 through 2-8. Respectfully, "Bill's" II

Where do you find this manual? I'm interested in the door jamb stuff too.

So yesterday I was "thinking out loud" again.... so Chris Jr & I measures a car
or two... one was 18 1/4" , one was 18 5/8" on the drivers side, 18 1/2" on passengers..... but looking how the the bottom frame plate is farther forward
than the firewall plate, .. if the car settles/buckles in the middle, could that botom frame plate go forward ?
if it does go forward,& up.. the 18 1/2" or whatever would be the same, but when you bolted the frame on, & leaned the top strut to the fire wall, it would
end up lower than the firewall mounts...

sorry for yappin' so much...


And thats completely within expected movement. I would expect to have to adjust the upper stingers to line up within those numbers. Not a prob.

But I may be missing something but it looked like the offset was more to the tune of inches, like two or more for the setup in question???

Just wanna see if the alignment issue was the body or the clip???? Hate to see him eat an alignment issue if it wasnt his car out.. OH!!! And I dont wanna see the misfit issue being pointed to CW if it shouldn't be either!!! Now way!!..

I just see it as something that should have bolted up fairly easily... And they prolly do, not in this case though huh???? JR

Sorry I opened up a can of worms on this subject... So if I used a floor jack and a 2 x 4 to get the upper strut arms to line up, would this take the possible buckled floor and straighten it somewhat? I drove my 66 for a short drive today for the first time and all seemed fine, no problems so far.

Len:D

Hey Now. Len it might move it just a tad. Two things to be checked. (1) Be sure alignment is correct and they (2) check the wheel base on both sides to be sure its correct. If all the body gaps are aligned and the hood and doors fit without air/water leaks I don't forsee any issues. If you are having tire wear issues or steering tracking issues then use: # 3. Get someone to Tram Gage your body and use the GM Shop Manual for the specs. Respectfully, "Bill's" II :D

Hey Now Badboy66. Someone on this site has the Shop manual on disc and for sale but I don't know who it is. I am sure one of the mods will know or one of the members. I have my own manual that I have had since 1967. Respectfully, "Bill's" II :D

This doesnt really apply to the original clip topic but most would be suprised how 'off' these cars can be. My 67 has never had a crash but measured 3/4" difference on cross square measurements from inside door jamb to tip of rear fender. The rear frame attachment point to the floorpan was tight on one side and 3/8" gap on the other. They tried to spot weld the gap and tore the sheet metal and distorted the frame end. So I 'assumed' that the rear front spring mount point had to be square to the centerline of the car and used it as a baseline for my four link and thats why my passenger side bars are 1/4" longer. Live and learn I guess. Pretty sure mine was a friday or monday car. I wanted a 2nd gen and ive got one and it will be the LAST unibody car I will ever mess with. Dont even talk to me about that nuke proof undercoating under there. Sorry, really rattling on now.

OBTW, anyone out there that doesnt want to mess with fitting a CW clip can send it to me:yes:

Also.. What is wrong with OJ ?... many people drink it daily.. & is an excellent
mix with vodka or ammaretto ... good source of vitamin C too


HAHAHAHA.....that was great!!

Also.. What is wrong with OJ ?... many people drink it daily.. & is an excellent
mix with vodka or ammaretto ... good source of vitamin C too

Hahaha!! Funny.. Cept I prefer tequila so OJ is still WRONG.. :))) It does make a great over night marinade for a chicken to be roasted the next day though. YUM!!!!! JR

Guys
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Lets keep it clean and I will leave the thread open. Please handle any negative comments through email, pm's or the phone.
Tg